4:1

Prisoner at War said:

Okay, so 4 grams of hi-gly carbs to 1 gram of protein is the ideal
ratio for a sports drink??

Where did you get that figure?
Do you really trust the source?
With those answers you can probably answer your own
questions.

Quoted message said:

Isn't that heck of a lot of carbs??

Yes (as far as I'm concerned).
But I'm not really into sports drinks.
Pre and post workout meals with about a 1:1
carb to protein ratio and lots of water works
for me.

Quoted message said:

What if you use less carbs --
does the protein get "wasted" somehow or just take longer to load into
the muscle?

The way I understand it (could be wrong and/or
oversimplified), the idea is to include enough
carbohydrate to insure an adequate insulin response
every time you eat (so that nutrients are efficiently
shuttled into the cells). That's not really the
goal of sports drinks. Sports drinks (again, this
is simply my current understanding) are designed
to provide hydration, electrolytes and carbohydrate
for energy in real time (during an event rather
than for recovery).

Quoted message said:

How about if taking creatine as well? Carbs also help load creatine:
so workout supplementation involving creatine needs even more
carbs??? What's the ration for carbs to creatine???

My experience with creatine is from back when it was
new and exciting. Back then there were two approaches,
neither of which relied on carbohydrate. One approach
was to take say 15-20 grams of it per day for a week
or so to reach a saturation point as quickly as possible,
and then take say 5 grams of it per day to maintain that
level. The other approach was to simply take say 5 or 10
grams a day. With that level of consumption eventually
you reach saturation and then maintain it. I used the
first approach and it worked the way it was supposed to.
There was a one time increase in weight and strength that
lasted as long as I stayed on it. It didn't rely on
simultaneous carb consumption at all.

Quoted message said:

Also, fructose (fruit juice) isn't as great a stimulator of insulin,
compared to sucrose (table sugar): true or false?

I've heard that, but I don't know whether or not to agree
with it. I've read some books on diabetes. In that sense
fruit sugar is considered a fast acting carbohydrate just
like any other refined sugar. Perhaps when it's in its
natural form combined with fiber it's a little slower, but
in juice form I feel that it's just as potent as sucrose.

I recently read the book "Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle."
I thought the nutrition advice was very good. I have a
copy of it in my online briefcase if you'd like to have
a look: http://briefcase.yahoo.com/kd6tas

Bill Eitner said:

Prisoner at War said:

Okay, so 4 grams of hi-gly carbs to 1 gram of protein is the ideal
ratio for a sports drink??

Where did you get that figure?
Do you really trust the source?
With those answers you can probably answer your own
questions.

Quoted message said:

Isn't that heck of a lot of carbs??

Yes (as far as I'm concerned).
But I'm not really into sports drinks.
Pre and post workout meals with about a 1:1
carb to protein ratio and lots of water works
for me.

Quoted message said:

What if you use less carbs --
does the protein get "wasted" somehow or just take longer to load into
the muscle?

The way I understand it (could be wrong and/or
oversimplified), the idea is to include enough
carbohydrate to insure an adequate insulin response
every time you eat (so that nutrients are efficiently
shuttled into the cells). That's not really the
goal of sports drinks. Sports drinks (again, this
is simply my current understanding) are designed
to provide hydration, electrolytes and carbohydrate
for energy in real time (during an event rather
than for recovery).

Quoted message said:

How about if taking creatine as well? Carbs also help load creatine:
so workout supplementation involving creatine needs even more
carbs??? What's the ration for carbs to creatine???

My experience with creatine is from back when it was
new and exciting. Back then there were two approaches,
neither of which relied on carbohydrate. One approach
was to take say 15-20 grams of it per day for a week
or so to reach a saturation point as quickly as possible,
and then take say 5 grams of it per day to maintain that
level. The other approach was to simply take say 5 or 10
grams a day. With that level of consumption eventually
you reach saturation and then maintain it. I used the
first approach and it worked the way it was supposed to.
There was a one time increase in weight and strength that
lasted as long as I stayed on it. It didn't rely on
simultaneous carb consumption at all.

Quoted message said:

Also, fructose (fruit juice) isn't as great a stimulator of insulin,
compared to sucrose (table sugar): true or false?

I've heard that, but I don't know whether or not to agree
with it. I've read some books on diabetes. In that sense
fruit sugar is considered a fast acting carbohydrate just
like any other refined sugar. Perhaps when it's in its
natural form combined with fiber it's a little slower, but
in juice form I feel that it's just as potent as sucrose.

I recently read the book "Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle."
I thought the nutrition advice was very good. I have a
copy of it in my online briefcase if you'd like to have
a look:http://briefcase.yahoo.com/kd6tas

The guys a troll. Don't feed the trolls.

Bill Eitner said:

Where did you get that figure?
Do you really trust the source?
With those answers you can probably answer your own
questions.

Sorry -- Head of Kinesiology at University of Texas, his book
"Nutrient Timing." I also see them Accelerade folks marketing it, so
I ask....

Quoted message said:

Yes (as far as I'm concerned).
But I'm not really into sports drinks.
Pre and post workout meals with about a 1:1
carb to protein ratio and lots of water works
for me.

Well, such sports drinks are supposed to work like a meal, only faster
(since there's a 30-45 min. optimum anabolic window of opportunity).

Quoted message said:

The way I understand it (could be wrong and/or
oversimplified), the idea is to include enough
carbohydrate to insure an adequate insulin response
every time you eat (so that nutrients are efficiently
shuttled into the cells). That's not really the
goal of sports drinks. Sports drinks (again, this
is simply my current understanding) are designed
to provide hydration, electrolytes and carbohydrate
for energy in real time (during an event rather
than for recovery).

You're right, only that now, apparently, with this "new" 4:1 idea, all
can benefit: both strength athletes and endurance athletes, since
muscle breakdown is muscle breakdown and negatively impacts both
situations.

It seems logical that at some point, there's just too much protein for
each molecule of carb to handle...but what happens to the excess
protein? Does it simply "wait on line" or is it "eliminated"
altogether?

Quoted message said:

My experience with creatine is from back when it was
new and exciting. Back then there were two approaches,
neither of which relied on carbohydrate. One approach
was to take say 15-20 grams of it per day for a week
or so to reach a saturation point as quickly as possible,
and then take say 5 grams of it per day to maintain that
level. The other approach was to simply take say 5 or 10
grams a day. With that level of consumption eventually
you reach saturation and then maintain it. I used the
first approach and it worked the way it was supposed to.
There was a one time increase in weight and strength that
lasted as long as I stayed on it. It didn't rely on
simultaneous carb consumption at all.

So how come you're off the creatine now, apparently? Carb pairing
with creatine is just supposed to be like carb pairing with protein --
the hi-gly carb increases speed of loading. Seems logical that a unit
of carbs is only able to handle either creatine or protein...and, with
the recommended dosage already so high...seems not beneficial to have
some many carbs around, despite the help they provide loading creatine
and protein....

Quoted message said:

I've heard that, but I don't know whether or not to agree
with it. I've read some books on diabetes. In that sense
fruit sugar is considered a fast acting carbohydrate just
like any other refined sugar. Perhaps when it's in its
natural form combined with fiber it's a little slower, but
in juice form I feel that it's just as potent as sucrose.

I'd rather take fruit juice with pure creatine monohydrate, but I read
in that "Nutrient Timing" book that fructose doesn't provoke as strong
an insulin spike, and that some kinda gastrointestinal issues apply
somehow.

Quoted message said:

I recently read the book "Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle."
I thought the nutrition advice was very good. I have a
copy of it in my online briefcase if you'd like to have
a look:http://briefcase.yahoo.com/kd6tas

Hey, cool!!! I've heard of that book and was wondering about
it...THANKS, MAN!!!! MOST HELPFUL POST ON MFW EVER!!!

What are you, a twelve year-old girl trying to start your own clique
here? I'm sure he's intelligent enough to figure out things out on
his own.

Tell your mother the proper abortion mix is 3:2 arsenic to cyanide.

TC said:

The guys a troll. Don't feed the trolls.

"Prisoner at War" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What are you, a twelve year-old girl trying to start your own clique
here? I'm sure he's intelligent enough to figure out things out on
his own.

Tell your mother the proper abortion mix is 3:2 arsenic to cyanide.

Eeew. That was gross. Wouldn't it be easier to just ignore such posts?

Quoted message said:

TC said:

The guys a troll. Don't feed the trolls.

teachrmama said:

Eeew. That was gross. Wouldn't it be easier to just ignore such posts?

Sorry, you're right. I do have a [censored] list of folks I ignore (not
kill-file, but ignore), and I will add that moron to it.

Again, my apologies. I know it happens, but sometimes I'm just sick
of all these people hanging around newsgroups with nothing to do but
wait for a newbie question to pounce on. You'd think they were too
tired from their workout for such b.s.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Prisoner at War said:

Okay, so 4 grams of hi-gly carbs to 1 gram of protein is the ideal
ratio for a sports drink??

Isn't that heck of a lot of carbs?? What if you use less carbs --
does the protein get "wasted" somehow or just take longer to load into
the muscle?

It's only one meal, and it's supposed to be taken post-workout.

Quoted message said:

Also, fructose (fruit juice) isn't as great a stimulator of insulin,
compared to sucrose (table sugar): true or false?

False.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a [censored]" -- Jack Nicholson

In article <[email hidden]>,

Prisoner at War said:

teachrmama said:

Eeew. That was gross. Wouldn't it be easier to just ignore such posts?

Sorry, you're right. I do have a [censored] list of folks I ignore (not
kill-file, but ignore), and I will add that moron to it.

Again, my apologies. I know it happens, but sometimes I'm just sick
of all these people hanging around newsgroups with nothing to do but
wait for a newbie question to pounce on. You'd think they were too
tired from their workout for such b.s.

It would help if you did a little research before posting, and cited
some websites for your info., especially the stuff that is patently
bogus.

There are a few patient people here.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a [censored]" -- Jack Nicholson

Omelet said:

It's only one meal, and it's supposed to be taken post-workout.

Actually, it's three -- pre, intra, and post! I'm reading "Nutrient
Timing" by the head of Kiniseology at Texas U and the studies cited
find benefits to carb/protein drinks pre, intra, and post workout!!
That's what I'll be doing, to make sure I've got all my bases
covered. I wonder if it will work....

Quoted message said:

False.

It's what the head of Kiniseology at Texas U believed in ~2004,
anyway, the copyright date of the book.

Quoted message said:

--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a [censored]" -- Jack Nicholson

Omelet said:

It would help if you did a little research before posting, and cited
some websites for your info., especially the stuff that is patently
bogus.

This *is* my research! What better place to research than some health
and fitness newgroups! Practically real time, too!

And no, what's "patently" bogus? Sounds crazy to shoot oneself up
with drugs, but I guess that works, so what do I know? That's why I'm
asking around. I don't know why people can't just go make a salad if
they aren't interested in a topic.

Quoted message said:

There are a few patient people here.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a [censored]" -- Jack Nicholson

In article <[email hidden]>,

Prisoner at War said:

And no, what's "patently" bogus? Sounds crazy to shoot oneself up
with drugs, but I guess that works, so what do I know? That's why I'm
asking around. I don't know why people can't just go make a salad if
they aren't interested in a topic.

Look.

I'm telling you that the use of injectable insulin for body building is
foolish and dangerous. You say that asking questions here is your
research.

I've posted links to back up my claim...

And you've done nothing but argue with me.

So, do you want to learn the truth here or do you just want us to post
what you WANT to hear?

If that is the case, I'd suggest you try injecting some insulin into
yourself and see what happens. Be sure to have someone nearby that can
call 911.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a [censored]" -- Jack Nicholson

"Prisoner at War" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Okay, so 4 grams of hi-gly carbs to 1 gram of protein is the ideal
ratio for a sports drink??

Isn't that heck of a lot of carbs?? What if you use less carbs --
does the protein get "wasted" somehow or just take longer to load into
the muscle?

How about if taking creatine as well? Carbs also help load creatine:
so workout supplementation involving creatine needs even more
carbs??? What's the ration for carbs to creatine???

Also, fructose (fruit juice) isn't as great a stimulator of insulin,
compared to sucrose (table sugar): true or false?

At one time, this ratio was the claim to fame of the recovery drinks R4
and Accelerade by Endurox. I used both when I was a runner and cyclist,
and they really did work better than Gatorade or similar. I doubt one
size fits all when it comes to post-workout food if for no other reason
than the workouts can vary so much.

Just my opinion.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Prisoner at War said:

teachrmama said:

Eeew. That was gross. Wouldn't it be easier to just ignore such posts?

Sorry, you're right. I do have a [censored] list of folks I ignore (not
kill-file, but ignore), and I will add that moron to it.

Again, my apologies. I know it happens, but sometimes I'm just sick
of all these people hanging around newsgroups with nothing to do but
wait for a newbie question to pounce on. You'd think they were too
tired from their workout for such b.s.

And I'm sick of trolling [censored] who ask utterly stupid or
nonsensical questions that could be either easily answered or shown to
be completely idiotic by doing a simple google search. You are either
a complete idiot or a troll. Which is it?

"Prisoner at War" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Okay, so 4 grams of hi-gly carbs to 1 gram of protein is the ideal
ratio for a sports drink??

Speaking as a runner (long term aerobic power user):

The 4 to 1 ratio is what Accelerade says, and supposedly they've patented
it. They've got a bunch of Journal articles on their website supporting
that. I've read separately that short chain amino acids are used for energy
in aerobic mode, and lower the rate of muscle breakdown during exercise.

Protein (chains of amino acids) absorb the stomach's acidity. If you eat
carbs only during a long exercise session, your stomach will get overly
acidic.

The carbs consumed during exercise mainly replenish and help maintain blood
sugar levels, although some probably finds its way back into the muscles as
glycogen. If you've ever done a long term run and gotten weak and dizzy,
that's a sign of low blood sugar, and means you haven't been eating/drinking
enough carbs.

Most endurance runners (multi hour events) consume roughly 200-300
calories/hour in the form of snacks/gels/energy drinks.

Quoted message said:

How about if taking creatine as well? Carbs also help load creatine:
so workout supplementation involving creatine needs even more
carbs??? What's the ration for carbs to creatine???

Don't know about distance runners ever using the stuff -- sounds like weight
lifting Chemistry to me...

Quoted message said:

Also, fructose (fruit juice) isn't as great a stimulator of insulin,
compared to sucrose (table sugar): true or false?

When warmed up in aerobic mode, the tendency to get a low blood sugar
reaction to pure carbs is greatly reduced -- glycemic index isn't much of a
factor for most folks. So the type of carb isn't particularly important.

D Stumpus said:

"Prisoner at War" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Okay, so 4 grams of hi-gly carbs to 1 gram of protein is the ideal
ratio for a sports drink??

Speaking as a runner (long term aerobic power user):

The 4 to 1 ratio is what Accelerade says, and supposedly they've patented
it. They've got a bunch of Journal articles on their website supporting
that. I've read separately that short chain amino acids are used for energy
in aerobic mode, and lower the rate of muscle breakdown during exercise.

Also from the running perspective, I haven't read the more recent stuff,
but the original studies, I believe, using the 4:1 ratio had protein
ADDED to the carbs, so that ratio had more calories than pure carbs.
There was another issue with their design also - either small number or
using time to exhaustion as result. I believe some articles (or at least
one) has come out in the last few years where they used same number of
calories, but not sure.

If you look at this article on their website
http://www.accelerade.com/science/FeaturedStudy.aspx
I don't see anything in there supporting the 4:1 ratio, just the carbs +
protein approach. Some of the original articles cited might have it in
there, but I would think Accelerade's page would make a big deal of it,
if they did.

I think the endurance perspective is different from lifting perspective
although there's some overlap, so when a guy cross posts in that many
different groups about an "ideal" ratio in a sports drink, he really
does need to specify "ideal" for what?

Dot

--
"Dream big and dare to fail." --- Norman Vaughan
world-famous adventurer who was with Byrd in Antarctica

"Prisoner at War" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Okay, so 4 grams of hi-gly carbs to 1 gram of protein is the ideal
ratio for a sports drink??

Isn't that heck of a lot of carbs?? What if you use less carbs --
does the protein get "wasted" somehow or just take longer to load into
the muscle?

How about if taking creatine as well? Carbs also help load creatine:
so workout supplementation involving creatine needs even more
carbs??? What's the ration for carbs to creatine???

Also, fructose (fruit juice) isn't as great a stimulator of insulin,
compared to sucrose (table sugar): true or false?

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/healthreport/stories/2007/1969924.htm

Read the whole article.

T.

On Jul 26, 10:41 am, Prisoner at War <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Okay, so 4 grams of hi-gly carbs to 1 gram of protein is the ideal
ratio for a sports drink??

Isn't that heck of a lot of carbs?? What if you use less carbs --
does the protein get "wasted" somehow or just take longer to load into
the muscle?

How about if taking creatine as well? Carbs also help load creatine:
so workout supplementation involving creatine needs even more
carbs??? What's the ration for carbs to creatine???

Also, fructose (fruit juice) isn't as great a stimulator of insulin,
compared to sucrose (table sugar): true or false?

Get a life you dumbass.

teachrmama wrote:

-=snip the "That was gross" content=-

Quoted message said:

Eeew. That was gross. Wouldn't it be easier to just ignore such posts?

Like you just did?

Oops, like I just did, too.

D'OH!

--

D Stumpus wrote:
[...]

Quoted message said:

The 4 to 1 ratio is what Accelerade says, and supposedly they've patented
it. They've got a bunch of Journal articles on their website <snip>

Just saw their one commercial on the TV today.

"Don't fade - Accelerade!"

And, yes, also recall the 4 to 1 ratio they mentioned.

Dunno if it's true or not, but that's a catchy enough little slogan.

--