4:1

"Curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

teachrmama wrote:

-=snip the "That was gross" content=-

Quoted message said:

Eeew. That was gross. Wouldn't it be easier to just ignore such posts?

Like you just did?

Oops, like I just did, too.

D'OH!

<chuckle>

Steve Freides said:

At one time, this ratio was the claim to fame of the recovery drinks R4
and Accelerade by Endurox. I used both when I was a runner and cyclist,
and they really did work better than Gatorade or similar.

Wow, they really made a difference?? Hmm, so I guess, whatever the
calories, it works.

Quoted message said:

I doubt one
size fits all when it comes to post-workout food if for no other reason
than the workouts can vary so much.

Well, muscle is muscle, regardless of why their ATP is deprived or how
it is deprived (intense bursts or prolonged sapping)...4:1 should
apply to all or none (assuming no medical conditions and such).

Quoted message said:

Just my opinion.

Very interesting to hear. Thanks for the feedback. I guess I'll try
a 4:1 sugar to whey mix myself and see if anything happens...though,
then again, I suppose, with all that sugar, there should be at least
the perception of some kind of a "boost," no??

Quoted message said:

-S-http://www.kbnj.com

D Stumpus said:

Speaking as a runner (long term aerobic power user):

The 4 to 1 ratio is what Accelerade says, and supposedly they've patented
it. They've got a bunch of Journal articles on their website supporting
that. I've read separately that short chain amino acids are used for energy
in aerobic mode, and lower the rate of muscle breakdown during exercise.

Holy heck, they've "patented" it??? Not the actual ratio, no way!
Unless they funded all the studies utilizing that ratio, I
suppose...??

Quoted message said:

Protein (chains of amino acids) absorb the stomach's acidity. If you eat
carbs only during a long exercise session, your stomach will get overly
acidic.

Interesting! Sounds like heartburn -- sometimes when I ingest a lot
of carbs like breads and cakes I get heartburn. Same thing?

Quoted message said:

The carbs consumed during exercise mainly replenish and help maintain blood
sugar levels, although some probably finds its way back into the muscles as
glycogen. If you've ever done a long term run and gotten weak and dizzy,
that's a sign of low blood sugar, and means you haven't been eating/drinking
enough carbs.

Most I ever did was fifteen miles on the treadmill, at 2:45. I don't
remember feeling weak and dizzy, necessarily, but I always feel
"happily drained," no matter what the distance.

I'll trying having a carb/protein drink next time and see if that
helps.

Quoted message said:

Most endurance runners (multi hour events) consume roughly 200-300
calories/hour in the form of snacks/gels/energy drinks.

Yeah, I've always wondered about that. I didn't even have water on
hand while running on the treadmill. I never do, actually. I only
drink after a run; I never interrupt a run for a sip, and I don't run
with any bottles or packs on me.

But now that I'm 35 and just starting to feel kinda weird sometimes,
I'm looking into all these things; hence my questions.

Quoted message said:

Don't know about distance runners ever using the stuff -- sounds like weight
lifting Chemistry to me...

Yes, you're right. Apparently creatine draws water into the muscles
and adds more weight thereby (though supposedly swelled muscles make
for faster protein synthesis).

Quoted message said:

When warmed up in aerobic mode, the tendency to get a low blood sugar
reaction to pure carbs is greatly reduced -- glycemic index isn't much of a
factor for most folks. So the type of carb isn't particularly important.

Right -- for runners!

But hi-gly carbs are supposed to be most efficient at loading protein
into your system. Even for runners that's important, especially since
protein is supposed to be burned, two, past two hours of exercise.

All that from "Nutrient Timing," which is focused on the strength and
speed athlete, but still, muscle is muscle and there's a lot of cross-
over benefits if this stuff is true....

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

Also from the running perspective, I haven't read the more recent stuff,
but the original studies, I believe, using the 4:1 ratio had protein
ADDED to the carbs, so that ratio had more calories than pure carbs.
There was another issue with their design also - either small number or
using time to exhaustion as result. I believe some articles (or at least
one) has come out in the last few years where they used same number of
calories, but not sure.

In "Nutrient Timing" by the Head of Kinesiology at Texas University
it's stated that calories actually didn't matter. Some studies are
cited which suggested that it's the carbs that's the independent
variable, and calories do not factor at all for purposes of muscular
contraction during exercise and muscular recovery immediately after
exercise.

Quoted message said:

If you look at this article on their websitehttp://www.accelerade.com/science/FeaturedStudy.aspx
I don't see anything in there supporting the 4:1 ratio, just the carbs +
protein approach. Some of the original articles cited might have it in
there, but I would think Accelerade's page would make a big deal of it,
if they did.

Amazing...their ad in Runner's World magazine does make a big deal of
the ratio!

Quoted message said:

I think the endurance perspective is different from lifting perspective
although there's some overlap, so when a guy cross posts in that many
different groups about an "ideal" ratio in a sports drink, he really
does need to specify "ideal" for what?

Good point -- but I meant "ideal" in the very simple ("simple"😉 sense
of intra-workout musclar contraction and post-workout muscular
recovery. Seems it should benefit both types of athletes "equally,"
though they channel the benefits towards different activities.

Quoted message said:

Dot

--
"Dream big and dare to fail." --- Norman Vaughan
world-famous adventurer who was with Byrd in Antarctica

Get a wife you sore loser!

Quoted message said:

Get a life you dumbass.

"Prisoner at War" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Freides said:

At one time, this ratio was the claim to fame of the recovery drinks
R4
and Accelerade by Endurox. I used both when I was a runner and
cyclist,
and they really did work better than Gatorade or similar.

Wow, they really made a difference?? Hmm, so I guess, whatever the
calories, it works.

For me as an endurance athlete, it made a huge difference. I could
quite literally run more miles per week because I was recovering better
after I started using Endurox R4 as my recovery drink. The stuff was/is
fantastic in that regard as far as I'm concerned. When they later came
out with Accelerade, I started taking that on the bike. Both were
always only available as powders, but I think they're now doing
pre-release advertising of Accelerade in pre-mixed form. If memory
serves, the main difference between the two products was that the 'while
exercising' version, Accelerade, had more salt than the 'after
exercising' version, R4.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I doubt one
size fits all when it comes to post-workout food if for no other
reason
than the workouts can vary so much.

Well, muscle is muscle, regardless of why their ATP is deprived or how
it is deprived (intense bursts or prolonged sapping)...4:1 should
apply to all or none (assuming no medical conditions and such).

Quoted message said:

Just my opinion.

Very interesting to hear. Thanks for the feedback. I guess I'll try
a 4:1 sugar to whey mix myself and see if anything happens...though,
then again, I suppose, with all that sugar, there should be at least
the perception of some kind of a "boost," no??

Quoted message said:

-S-http://www.kbnj.com

Steve Freides said:

If memory serves, the main difference between the two products was
that the 'while exercising' version, Accelerade, had more salt than
the 'after exercising' version, R4.

The Endurox (R4) also has some extra stuff. At the very least, ciwuja
which is apparently a relative of Siberian ginseng and may be
something of an adaptogen.

I too thought the Endurox was helping me recover better than whatever
I was using before it, and I may well have been right. But then I
also didn't notice a dropoff in recovery when I stopped buying Endurox
and just made sure to get some carbs and a little protein in me ASAP,
e.g. juice and breakfast, beer and dinner, a fruit/juice/yogurt/sorbet
smoothie, whatever. You know, like "food... something my body needs
anyway."

My experience is sheer frequency of running - ideally every day, twice
most days - pumps up the recovery too. In other sports? No idea.

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Freides wrote:
My experience is sheer frequency of running - ideally every day, twice
most days - pumps up the recovery too.

My recover drink is still a brew( and yes, most Heineken skunk [censored]) and
works very well. I alsotry to eat within the next 15-20 minutes. My
long runs are picked to finish close to a restaurant. I know chocolate
milk is as good as any sport drink but I'm never in the mood for it post
run.

-Doug

Steve Freides said:

For me as an endurance athlete, it made a huge difference. I could
quite literally run more miles per week because I was recovering better
after I started using Endurox R4 as my recovery drink. The stuff was/is
fantastic in that regard as far as I'm concerned. When they later came
out with Accelerade, I started taking that on the bike. Both were
always only available as powders, but I think they're now doing
pre-release advertising of Accelerade in pre-mixed form. If memory
serves, the main difference between the two products was that the 'while
exercising' version, Accelerade, had more salt than the 'after
exercising' version, R4.

-S-http://www.kbnj.com

Hmmm!

So they work for you...when do you take them? I mean, like, when
you're thrity minutes into a run, or forty, or sixty, or what? Just
curious if you've noticed. And, like, how much longer or further can
you go?

I've run a straight fifteen miles on the treadmill in 2:45 without
even a sip of water...while that ain't a competitive time at all, I've
never understood the need for recovery drinks and whatnot. But so
many folks seem to swear by them that now, as I approach middle age
with some developing physical ailments, I'm really curious as to
whether these "magic" potions and powders will help me somehow. I
guess I'm wondering whether these things help "old folks," mostly??

Charlie Pendejo said:

The Endurox (R4) also has some extra stuff. At the very least, ciwuja
which is apparently a relative of Siberian ginseng and may be
something of an adaptogen.

I too thought the Endurox was helping me recover better than whatever
I was using before it, and I may well have been right. But then I
also didn't notice a dropoff in recovery when I stopped buying Endurox
and just made sure to get some carbs and a little protein in me ASAP,
e.g. juice and breakfast, beer and dinner, a fruit/juice/yogurt/sorbet
smoothie, whatever. You know, like "food... something my body needs
anyway."

My experience is sheer frequency of running - ideally every day, twice
most days - pumps up the recovery too. In other sports? No idea.

Yeah, I was wondering about that...perhaps just taxing your muscles
and your system overall winds up developing and expanding your
recuperative capabilities? I mean, in lieu of a sports drink?

Indeed, food should do just fine...I think the idea of a recovery
drink is 'cause it's handier and faster, and most athletes don't like
to actually eat after exercising (I'm always ready for a meal
myself)....

Doug Freese said:

My recover drink is still a brew( and yes, most Heineken skunk [censored]) and
works very well. I alsotry to eat within the next 15-20 minutes. My
long runs are picked to finish close to a restaurant. I know chocolate
milk is as good as any sport drink but I'm never in the mood for it post
run.

-Doug

That reminds me...I feel like eating ("feel like" -- not hunger per
se) after weight lifting, but now that everyone mentions it, yeah, I
don't remember ever feeling like eating after a run! Even after seven
laps around the Central Park reservoir...nope, I can't remember
feeling like having a meal after a run! Whereas after a good two
hours of lifting, I naturally have the idea to go somewhere and sit
down to a nice fancy meal -- again, not hunger, but something of an
appetite.

I wonder if that's somehow just a psychological association I've
developed instead of anything my body is influencing my mind to do....

Tomasso said:

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/healthreport/stories/2007/1969924.htm

Read the whole article.

T.

Very interesting discussion on insulin and leptin -- thanks for the
link!

I wonder what "built-in negative feedback mechanisms that are supposed
to stop us from gaining too much weight" the good professor might be
referring to. I'd thought that the body just naturally wants to take
on as much fat as it can, the same way a tree would just grow forever
if allowed to.

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Freides said:

If memory serves, the main difference between the two products was
that the 'while exercising' version, Accelerade, had more salt than
the 'after exercising' version, R4.

The Endurox (R4) also has some extra stuff. At the very least, ciwuja
which is apparently a relative of Siberian ginseng and may be
something of an adaptogen.

If memory serves, they had ciwuja in R4 when it first came out but then
removed it. I haven't used the stuff lately but it's worth checking to
see if it's still in there.

Quoted message said:

I too thought the Endurox was helping me recover better than whatever
I was using before it, and I may well have been right. But then I
also didn't notice a dropoff in recovery when I stopped buying Endurox
and just made sure to get some carbs and a little protein in me ASAP,
e.g. juice and breakfast, beer and dinner, a fruit/juice/yogurt/sorbet
smoothie, whatever. You know, like "food... something my body needs
anyway."

My guess is that the addition of protein is the main thing that helps
the recovery, so however you got it, if you got it, you probably
received most of the benefits that you would have gotten from the
commercial product.

Quoted message said:

My experience is sheer frequency of running - ideally every day, twice
most days - pumps up the recovery too. In other sports? No idea.

Frequency of training depends on too many things to try and summarize in
a sentence. We know many elite runners train twice a day but many do
little else. It's the whole volume argument - as much volume, with an
intensity that's "close enough" to competition intensity while still
allowing sufficient recovery - that's the formula for success in a lot
of athletic endeavors. The devil is in the details.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

"Prisoner at War" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I > don't remember ever feeling like eating after a run! Even after
seven
laps around the Central Park reservoir...nope, I can't remember
feeling like having a meal after a run!

I can't remember not being hungry after a run be it an hour or 8 hours.
Our entire group (5-12) go out for breakfast/lunch as soon as we can get
changed.

-DF

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Steve Freides wrote:

My guess is that the addition of protein is the main thing that helps
the recovery,

I don't agree. A recovery drink, if it worth anything need carbs,
protein and fat with proportional emphasis on the carbs. Most studies
show that carbs are primary immediately after running but we also know
that fat and protein while not in immediate demand are also necessary to
help total recovery and why good recovery drinks do all three.

-Doug

Doug Freese said:

I can't remember not being hungry after a run be it an hour or 8 hours.
Our entire group (5-12) go out for breakfast/lunch as soon as we can get
changed.

-DF

I wonder if it might have to do with body composition, then,
somehow...I'm a weightlifter type -- think collegiate wrestler, that
kinda build -- and so I'm not thin like you long-distance runners tend
to be (though I've done a straight 15 miles on the treadmill once in
2:45) and maybe that's got something to do with appetites...??

Do different body types tend to have different appetites? How about
just WRT different kinds of athletic activity: high-intensity versus
endurance? Though, as I mentioned, even after strength training I am
not hungry, but only just have the idea to eat something.

I do all day bike rides, too -- up to 145 miles for last year's annual
5BBC Montauk Ride -- and while I enjoy the pit-stop snacks (since
eating used to be a sport in itself for me), I've never felt even the
actual urge to eat....that's why I've usually agreed with the
statement that exercise suppresses appetite.

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Freides wrote:

My guess is that the addition of protein is the main thing that helps
the recovery,

I don't agree. A recovery drink, if it worth anything need carbs,
protein and fat with proportional emphasis on the carbs. Most studies
show that carbs are primary immediately after running but we also know
that fat and protein while not in immediate demand are also necessary
to help total recovery and why good recovery drinks do all three.

No, you don't disagree. We're all talking about either no protein or
4:1 carb:protein - either way, it's mostly carbs. Studies _have_ shown
that some protein helps the carbs do their thing better than just the
carbs by themselves, which is why drinks like Accelerade and R4.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Quoted message said:

-Doug

In article <[email hidden]>,

Doug Freese said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steve Freides wrote:

My guess is that the addition of protein is the main thing that helps
the recovery,

I don't agree. A recovery drink, if it worth anything need carbs,
protein and fat with proportional emphasis on the carbs. Most studies
show that carbs are primary immediately after running but we also know
that fat and protein while not in immediate demand are also necessary to
help total recovery and why good recovery drinks do all three.

-Doug

A balanced drink iirc will help with a more slow, sustained insulin
release and nutrient absorption into the muscles.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a [censored]" -- Jack Nicholson

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message No, you don't
disagree. We're all talking about either no protein or 4:1
carb:protein - either way, it's mostly carbs. Studies _have_ shown
that some protein helps the carbs do their thing better than just the
carbs by themselves, which is why drinks like Accelerade and R4.

Ok. My oops, I did not follow the thread from the start.

-DF

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message No, you don't
disagree. We're all talking about either no protein or 4:1
carb:protein - either way, it's mostly carbs. Studies _have_ shown that
some protein helps the carbs do their thing better than just the carbs by
themselves, which is why drinks like Accelerade and R4.

Ok. My oops, I did not follow the thread from the start.

ready, fire, aim.

Quoted message said:

-DF