This vino "thing" got me to thinking about Floyd. Vino's ride was very reminiscent of Landis's ride last year-in that they each truly THUMPED the competition. And now it comes out that Vino "may have been" blood doping the night before the ride.
Well, it made me think that perhaps (probably?) Landis juiced himself up the night before "The Ride".
So dig on this.
Landis gave himself some of his own blood, the night before the competition. This blood was taken well in advance, obviously. At the time the blood was drawn, he was on testosterone for whatever-long term training recovery etc. Not thinking, he drew blood from himself. The blood had nice high levels of exo-testosterone. Viola. He tests positive and "has no idea" where it came from.
It explains why it was there. The blood would have been drawn during training times - a time he would have used it for long term recovery. Otherwise there is no reason for him to have taken it during the tour. It also (could?) explain why he didn't test positive for it during the other stages he was tested.
I don't know the biology of the processing - if this is even possible, but it sure makes a lot of sense to me.
I don't know the biology of the processing - if this is even possible, but it sure makes a lot of sense to me.
Except Landis got caught because of low epitestosterone, not high testosterone. It was the ratio, not the level. Then an isotope test sealed the deal.
dumbass,
that scenario was already floated and it's plausible.
of course his ratio was high because his epitestosterone was too low, but that is the observed effect of topping up with exogenous testosterone when natural production is supressed by hard training.
if landis was topping up with T to the previously allowed 11:1 ratio (or during training -- both kessler and sinkewitz were nabbed with high T at training camps) and stashed away some blood and reinjected it during the tour after the ratio was dropped to 4:1 it would explain his comeback ride on stage 17 and the high T:E (which shouldn't have that effect alone).
This vino "thing" got me to thinking about Floyd. Vino's ride was very reminiscent of Landis's ride last year-in that they each truly THUMPED the competition. And now it comes out that Vino "may have been" blood doping the night before the ride.
Well, it made me think that perhaps (probably?) Landis juiced himself up the night before "The Ride".
So dig on this.
Landis gave himself some of his own blood, the night before the competition. This blood was taken well in advance, obviously. At the time the blood was drawn, he was on testosterone for whatever-long term training recovery etc. Not thinking, he drew blood from himself. The blood had nice high levels of exo-testosterone. Viola. He tests positive and "has no idea" where it came from.
It explains why it was there. The blood would have been drawn during training times - a time he would have used it for long term recovery. Otherwise there is no reason for him to have taken it during the tour. It also (could?) explain why he didn't test positive for it during the other stages he was tested.
I don't know the biology of the processing - if this is even possible, but it sure makes a lot of sense to me.
<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
William Asher said:
chester wrote:
<snip>
Quoted message said:
I don't know the biology of the processing - if this is even possible, but it sure makes a lot of sense to me.
Except Landis got caught because of low epitestosterone, not high testosterone. It was the ratio, not the level. Then an isotope test sealed the deal.
that scenario was already floated and it's plausible.
of course his ratio was high because his epitestosterone was too low, but that is the observed effect of topping up with exogenous testosterone when natural production is supressed by hard training.
if landis was topping up with T to the previously allowed 11:1 ratio (or during training -- both kessler and sinkewitz were nabbed with high T at training camps) and stashed away some blood and reinjected it during the tour after the ratio was dropped to 4:1 it would explain his comeback ride on stage 17 and the high T:E (which shouldn't have that effect alone).
Except of course that the "previous allowed" ratio was 6:1 which is natually occurring in athletes all the time.
And of course Floyd's FIRST sample A test showed 4.5 and the second sample A test showed 11:1 demonstrating contamination beyond doubt.
On Jul 24, 7:22 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>
Quoted message said:
dumbass,
that scenario was already floated and it's plausible.
of course his ratio was high because his epitestosterone was too low, but that is the observed effect of topping up with exogenous testosterone when natural production is supressed by hard training.
if landis was topping up with T to the previously allowed 11:1 ratio (or during training -- both kessler and sinkewitz were nabbed with high T at training camps) and stashed away some blood and reinjected it during the tour after the ratio was dropped to 4:1 it would explain his comeback ride on stage 17 and the high T:E (which shouldn't have that effect alone).
Dumbass,
We already went over this theory and it seems implausible because he'd either have to fill up with a very large volume of blood, or the blood he was topping up with would have to have a ridiculously high testosterone concentration. For ex, to triple his T level he'd have to take on 10% of blood volume with 20x the usual level, both of which seem excessive even for an ex-MTBer.
On Jul 25, 5:13 am, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>
Quoted message said:
Dumbass,
We already went over this theory and it seems implausible because he'd either have to fill up with a very large volume of blood, or the blood he was topping up with would have to have a ridiculously high testosterone concentration. For ex, to triple his T level he'd have to take on 10% of blood volume with 20x the usual level, both of which seem excessive even for an ex-MTBer.
I don't think it's as simple as that. If the testosterone was introduced via a blood transfusion, then the recipient's body is going to try to get rid of all of it as quickly as possible. They test the concentration of T and E metabolites in the urine, not the circulating levels in the body.
I don't think it's as simple as that. If the testosterone was introduced via a blood transfusion, then the recipient's body is going to try to get rid of all of it as quickly as possible. They test the concentration of T and E metabolites in the urine, not the circulating levels in the body.
How would that affect the T/E ratio given the constraint that T wasn't elevated?
One fundamental thing that we are overlooking is that when you have a very bad day, you are actually expending a lot less energy than everyone else in the tour. The next day you are going to have a ton more energy than eveyone else. It actually makes sense to have a very bad day so you can be rested to have an extraordinary day and maybe win the race. For example, on a monday you might feel really crappy and not get anything accomplished. That depressed day is actually a way of saving energy. at least that is how i am. of course, landis is a doper. these are guys who are super desperate to win at all cost. b- type personalities need not apply.
I don't think it's as simple as that. If the testosterone was introduced via a blood transfusion, then the recipient's body is going to try to get rid of all of it as quickly as possible. They test the concentration of T and E metabolites in the urine, not the circulating levels in the body.
How would that affect the T/E ratio given the constraint that T wasn't elevated?
T might have been elevated from a much lower level.
One fundamental thing that we are overlooking is that when you have a very bad day, you are actually expending a lot less energy than everyone else in the tour. The next day you are going to have a ton more energy than eveyone else. It actually makes sense to have a very bad day so you can be rested to have an extraordinary day and maybe win the race. For example, on a monday you might feel really crappy and not get anything accomplished. That depressed day is actually a way of saving energy. at least that is how i am. of course, landis is a doper. these are guys who are super desperate to win at all cost. b- type personalities need not apply.
I don't think it's as simple as that. If the testosterone was introduced via a blood transfusion, then the recipient's body is going to try to get rid of all of it as quickly as possible. They test the concentration of T and E metabolites in the urine, not the circulating levels in the body.
How would that affect the T/E ratio given the constraint that T wasn't elevated?
T might have been elevated from a much lower level.
All speculation, of course.
It is, of course. Still, Low E and wildly inconsistent results seems like the exact thing one would expect from a soured sample. I don't know how they get around that one.
One fundamental thing that we are overlooking is that when you have a very bad day, you are actually expending a lot less energy than everyone else in the tour.
Not convinced of this - from my own experience - at all. Once you get dropped out of the pack and are working on your own, you have to work harder. Further more if you lose a chunk of time early in the stage and are then left out on your own struggling to escape Hors Delai, you may actually have to ride as hard as the leaders without any of the help. Mind you, if you are in (or can get into) the autobus, you'll have riders around you to share the work and then you may have a relatively easy time.
But I don't recall Vino being in the autobus on his bad day (although he did have a couple of domestiques with him). Landis spent his bad day in the peloton, of course, so your theory could be valid there.
Simon - never has extraordinary days. Well, not that kind.
-- [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ ;; Generally Not Used ;; Except by Middle Aged Computer Scientists
On 24/7/07 8:33 PM, in article [email hidden], "[email hidden]"
Quoted message said:
chester said:
This vino "thing" got me to thinking about Floyd. Vino's ride was very reminiscent of Landis's ride last year-in that they each truly THUMPED the competition. And now it comes out that Vino "may have been" blood doping the night before the ride.
Well, it made me think that perhaps (probably?) Landis juiced himself up the night before "The Ride".
So dig on this.
Landis gave himself some of his own blood, the night before the competition. This blood was taken well in advance, obviously. At the time the blood was drawn, he was on testosterone for whatever-long term training recovery etc. Not thinking, he drew blood from himself. The blood had nice high levels of exo-testosterone. Viola. He tests positive and "has no idea" where it came from.
It explains why it was there. The blood would have been drawn during training times - a time he would have used it for long term recovery. Otherwise there is no reason for him to have taken it during the tour. It also (could?) explain why he didn't test positive for it during the other stages he was tested.
I don't know the biology of the processing - if this is even possible, but it sure makes a lot of sense to me.
Exactly how Ben Johnson messed up
Why would someone running a race of less than 10 sec blood dope?
On Jul 25, 5:13 am, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>
Quoted message said:
Dumbass,
Quoted message said:
We already went over this theory and it seems implausible because he'd either have to fill up with a very large volume of blood, or the blood he was topping up with would have to have a ridiculously high testosterone concentration. For ex, to triple his T level he'd have to take on 10% of blood volume with 20x the usual level, both of which seem excessive even for an ex-MTBer.
I don't think it's as simple as that. If the testosterone was introduced via a blood transfusion, then the recipient's body is going to try to get rid of all of it as quickly as possible. They test the concentration of T and E metabolites in the urine, not the circulating levels in the body.
It is possible that I have my head up my ass (Well, on this subject; it's surely true on _something_). I don't know how quickly the introduced testosterone would be metabolized and excreted - it's on the scale of a day or two, right? But would the excess T be metabolized quickly just because it was over Floyd's current levels, or would it have to be actually unusually high?
That is, it's hard to make a prediction without knowing what controls the response - whether the body is trying to maintain its previous equilibrium, or just keep hormone levels within some normal range. I would naively expect that the rates of metabolizing T and E would be proportional to their concentrations, thus if T suddenly doubled and E was unaffected, the rate of T-metabolite production would double. This would rapidly use up the introduced T, but it's still difficult to see how to triple the rate.
On 24/7/07 8:33 PM, in article [email hidden], "[email hidden]"
Quoted message said:
chester said:
This vino "thing" got me to thinking about Floyd. Vino's ride was very reminiscent of Landis's ride last year-in that they each truly THUMPED the competition. And now it comes out that Vino "may have been" blood doping the night before the ride.
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Well, it made me think that perhaps (probably?) Landis juiced himself up the night before "The Ride".
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
So dig on this.
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Landis gave himself some of his own blood, the night before the competition. This blood was taken well in advance, obviously. At the time the blood was drawn, he was on testosterone for whatever-long term training recovery etc. Not thinking, he drew blood from himself. The blood had nice high levels of exo-testosterone. Viola. He tests positive and "has no idea" where it came from.
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
It explains why it was there. The blood would have been drawn during training times - a time he would have used it for long term recovery. Otherwise there is no reason for him to have taken it during the tour. It also (could?) explain why he didn't test positive for it during the other stages he was tested.
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
I don't know the biology of the processing - if this is even possible, but it sure makes a lot of sense to me.
Quoted message said:
Exactly how Ben Johnson messed up
Why would someone running a race of less than 10 sec blood dope?- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
There is still a benefit. But I agree it does seem strange. It is his explanation
