Traffic lights

"Tom Crispin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Should an organised group of cyclists, who have submitted a route plan
to the relevent authorities a week in advance, be able to consider
themselves as one vehicle and hold up motor traffic, at automatically
controlled junctions, if all cyclists cannot get through lights on a
single phase of green?

Would the above be beneficial to overall traffic flow or detrimental?

Should National Standard cycling instructors be allowed to hold up
motor traffic at automatically controlled junctions if all trainees
cannot pass safely on a single phase of green?

Anything wrong with waiting at the other side of the junction and waiting
for the lights to change to regroup?

"Tom Crispin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Should an organised group of cyclists, who have submitted a route plan
to the relevent authorities a week in advance, be able to consider
themselves as one vehicle and hold up motor traffic, at automatically
controlled junctions, if all cyclists cannot get through lights on a
single phase of green?

This type of event would need to be oficially marshalled, as simply going
through a red light in the face of oncoming traffic could be lethal!

cheers adrian www.boliston.co.uk

Tom Crispin said:

Should an organised group of cyclists, who have submitted a route plan
to the relevent authorities a week in advance, be able to consider
themselves as one vehicle and hold up motor traffic, at automatically
controlled junctions, if all cyclists cannot get through lights on a
single phase of green?

Would you expect the same if you were a group travelling together in cars?

Quoted message said:

Would the above be beneficial to overall traffic flow or detrimental?

Detrimental because the vehicle on the cross route will not be
expecting you to be crossing when they have green leading to all sorts
of problems

Quoted message said:

Should National Standard cycling instructors be allowed to hold up
motor traffic at automatically controlled junctions if all trainees
cannot pass safely on a single phase of green?

Why is it such a large group that it can't make it in one go. Or is it
because some are not paying attention and get left behind. I would
suggest smaller groups and/or more attention on what they are supposed
to be doing.

Tony

Tom Crispin said:

Should an organised group of cyclists, who have submitted a route plan
to the relevent authorities a week in advance, be able to consider
themselves as one vehicle and hold up motor traffic, at automatically
controlled junctions, if all cyclists cannot get through lights on a
single phase of green?

The route plan would have to include such information that the "relevant
authorities" could decide to have applicable crossings attended by
traffic wardens or police to control the flows appropriately.

It's not going to happen for anything other than major-scale events.
--
Brian G
www.wetwo.co.uk

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 09:49:18 +0100, "vernon" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Tom Crispin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Should an organised group of cyclists, who have submitted a route plan
to the relevent authorities a week in advance, be able to consider
themselves as one vehicle and hold up motor traffic, at automatically
controlled junctions, if all cyclists cannot get through lights on a
single phase of green?

Would the above be beneficial to overall traffic flow or detrimental?

Should National Standard cycling instructors be allowed to hold up
motor traffic at automatically controlled junctions if all trainees
cannot pass safely on a single phase of green?

Anything wrong with waiting at the other side of the junction and waiting
for the lights to change to regroup?

That's what happens at present.

When 'snaking' groups of up to 15 children on roads to a training site
I aim to arrive on red at lights. The co-instructor comes forward to
the stop line, and when the lights change to green I lead the trainees
across the junction. If the lights change to red, as they often do
because the lights will not pick up the weight of cyclists, the
co-instructor will remain at the stop line until the remainder of the
group has crossed the junction at the second or third green phase.

This can be particularly difficult at a particular right turn, often
taking three or even four phases to lead the group across.

On a mass ride into central London of well over 150 cyclists it was
taking a great many phases at some juctions to get the group across
the lights, and then the group would be split by right and left
turning vehicles, causing further traffic mayhem when the advance
peletons waited to regroup with rear peletons.

It would seem that traffic flow would be vastly improved for many road
users if mass peletons were treated as a single vehicle for the
purposes of crossing automatically controlled junctions.

Adrian Boliston said:

"Tom Crispin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Should an organised group of cyclists, who have submitted a route plan
to the relevent authorities a week in advance, be able to consider
themselves as one vehicle and hold up motor traffic, at automatically
controlled junctions, if all cyclists cannot get through lights on a
single phase of green?

This type of event would need to be oficially marshalled, as simply going
through a red light in the face of oncoming traffic could be lethal!

Leading a peleton through on a red phase would not be treating the
peleton as a single vehicle. Continuing through lights when they have
changed from green to red would be, and yes, it would need to be
properly marshalled.

In article <[email hidden]>, Tom Crispin
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Should an organised group of cyclists, who have submitted a route plan
to the relevent authorities a week in advance, be able to consider
themselves as one vehicle and hold up motor traffic, at automatically
controlled junctions, if all cyclists cannot get through lights on a
single phase of green?

Would the above be beneficial to overall traffic flow or detrimental?

Should National Standard cycling instructors be allowed to hold up
motor traffic at automatically controlled junctions if all trainees
cannot pass safely on a single phase of green?

The only way you can safely override the lights at a junction is if
there's someone at each approach that needs to be stopped - usually
either a bike cop with flashing lights or a road worker in conspicuity
gear with a STOP/GO sign and advance warning signs.
If the group gets split up the first group should wait for the second at
the first safe convenient place. In most cases if the group is
approaching a green light it should be possible to slow down so it's red
when the leader reaches it, so the group has a full cycle to cross the
junction.
You might want two supervisors, one at the front, one at the back, so
any tailenders aren't left unsupervised, but if the group routinely
can't cross on a full cycle it's probably too large.

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 10:11:11 +0100, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Tom Crispin said:

Should an organised group of cyclists, who have submitted a route plan
to the relevent authorities a week in advance, be able to consider
themselves as one vehicle and hold up motor traffic, at automatically
controlled junctions, if all cyclists cannot get through lights on a
single phase of green?

Would you expect the same if you were a group travelling together in cars?

No, but I would expect the same for all the passengers on a bendy bus.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Would the above be beneficial to overall traffic flow or detrimental?

Detrimental because the vehicle on the cross route will not be
expecting you to be crossing when they have green leading to all sorts
of problems

Not if correctly marshalled.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Should National Standard cycling instructors be allowed to hold up
motor traffic at automatically controlled junctions if all trainees
cannot pass safely on a single phase of green?

Why is it such a large group that it can't make it in one go. Or is it
because some are not paying attention and get left behind. I would
suggest smaller groups and/or more attention on what they are supposed
to be doing.

Right turns with groups of up to 15 can be particularly difficult. The
problem is often made worse because automatic signals with traffic
sensors do not detect cyclists.

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 10:27:45 +0100, Brian G <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Tom Crispin said:

Should an organised group of cyclists, who have submitted a route plan
to the relevent authorities a week in advance, be able to consider
themselves as one vehicle and hold up motor traffic, at automatically
controlled junctions, if all cyclists cannot get through lights on a
single phase of green?

The route plan would have to include such information that the "relevant
authorities" could decide to have applicable crossings attended by
traffic wardens or police to control the flows appropriately.

It's not going to happen for anything other than major-scale events.

The difficulties we encountered was during a mass ride to Hyde Park
for the TDF prologue. The police were unable to provide the support
they would have liked to because of the large number of events going
on in London that particular weekend and the hightened security alerts
following the attempted bombing at Glasgow Airport and in Central
London.

"Tom Crispin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 10:11:11 +0100, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Tom Crispin said:

Should an organised group of cyclists, who have submitted a route plan
to the relevent authorities a week in advance, be able to consider
themselves as one vehicle and hold up motor traffic, at automatically
controlled junctions, if all cyclists cannot get through lights on a
single phase of green?

Would you expect the same if you were a group travelling together in cars?

No, but I would expect the same for all the passengers on a bendy bus.

Then join all the cyclists together with flexible permanent articulation and
you have a single vehicle.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Should National Standard cycling instructors be allowed to hold up
motor traffic at automatically controlled junctions if all trainees
cannot pass safely on a single phase of green?

Motorcycle instructors do not have that right when they are out with their
tutees. They simple stop at the far side of the lights or slow down and
wait for the the stragglers to catch up.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Right turns with groups of up to 15 can be particularly difficult. The
problem is often made worse because automatic signals with traffic
sensors do not detect cyclists.

Stop and wait or slow down until the group reforms.

It's what most of the riders that I ride with in a group on Audaxes do when
we get split by a light sequence. Why introduce a complication when a no
brainer course of action solves the problem?

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Tom Crispin
<[email hidden]> gently breathed:

Quoted message said:

Should an organised group of cyclists, who have submitted a route plan
to the relevent authorities a week in advance, be able to consider
themselves as one vehicle and hold up motor traffic, at automatically
controlled junctions, if all cyclists cannot get through lights on a
single phase of green?

No. The law should apply to everyone, equally. Unless the group has
arranged (and presumably paid for) the police / traffic wardens /
highways agency personnel to switch out the automatic controls and
control traffic through the junction manually, they must obey the
automatic controls. Red means stop. Always.

Quoted message said:

Would the above be beneficial to overall traffic flow or detrimental?

Detrimental as it would both antagonise law-abiding road users who
expect to stop on red and go on green, and also encourage the erroneous
view some people already seem to have that cyclists are above traffic
law.

Quoted message said:

Should National Standard cycling instructors be allowed to hold up
motor traffic at automatically controlled junctions if all trainees
cannot pass safely on a single phase of green?

Any instructor who acted like that would be insane. The result would be
to massively encourage the view in the trainees that groups of cyclists
are above the law. This would inevitably lead to a rise in deaths and
injuries as said trainees would then be likely to repeat the behaviour
when an instructor wasn't present, with potentially devastating results.

--
- DJ Pyromancer, Black Sheep, Leeds. <http://www.sheepish.net>
Hard Rock, Leeds <http://www.hard-rock.org.uk>
Broadband, Dialup, Domains = <http://www.wytches.net> = The UK's Pagan ISP!
<http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk> <http://www.revival.stormshadow.com>

Tom Crispin said:

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 10:11:11 +0100, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Tom Crispin wrote:

Quoted message said:

Would you expect the same if you were a group travelling together in cars?

No, but I would expect the same for all the passengers on a bendy bus.

Fine but I doubt you'll find a tandem with enough seats on it for your
whole party.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Would the above be beneficial to overall traffic flow or detrimental?

Detrimental because the vehicle on the cross route will not be
expecting you to be crossing when they have green leading to all sorts
of problems

Not if correctly marshalled.

Which would be by the police.

Quoted message said:

Right turns with groups of up to 15 can be particularly difficult. The
problem is often made worse because automatic signals with traffic
sensors do not detect cyclists.

Then register a complaint to the Council about the sensors. They should
detect cyclists and if they don't they should be fixed.

Tony

Tom Crispin said:

The difficulties we encountered was during a mass ride to Hyde Park
for the TDF prologue. The police were unable to provide the support
they would have liked to because of the large number of events going
on in London that particular weekend and the hightened security alerts
following the attempted bombing at Glasgow Airport and in Central
London.

So essentially a one off event where you can live with the slight
inconvenience. If the motorists can live with the inconvenience of the
closed roads on their journeys I am sure you could live with the
inconvenience of traffic lights for yours. What did you do at
non-signalised junctions where you did not have priority - all stream
out and force the cars to give way?

Tony

Tom Crispin said:

Should an organised group of cyclists, who have submitted a route plan
to the relevent authorities a week in advance, be able to consider
themselves as one vehicle and hold up motor traffic, at automatically
controlled junctions, if all cyclists cannot get through lights on a
single phase of green?

i can't really see that you should beable to no.

Quoted message said:

Would the above be beneficial to overall traffic flow or detrimental?

detrimental, to what degree would depend on the overall traffic.

Quoted message said:

Should National Standard cycling instructors be allowed to hold up
motor traffic at automatically controlled junctions if all trainees
cannot pass safely on a single phase of green?

again i think you'll have a hard time convicing others that they need
that right.

roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 11:37:43 +0100, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

So essentially a one off event where you can live with the slight
inconvenience. If the motorists can live with the inconvenience of the
closed roads on their journeys I am sure you could live with the
inconvenience of traffic lights for yours. What did you do at
non-signalised junctions where you did not have priority - all stream
out and force the cars to give way?

As we were using main roads that was not usually a problem. The only
place that was difficult was using the bus lane to turn right onto
Tower Bridge. Regrouping was particularly difficult. And it wasn't
us who were getting frustrated, it was motorists who found it hard to
pass a mass of cyclists waiting for another mass to regroup.

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 11:27:05 +0100, "vernon" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Right turns with groups of up to 15 can be particularly difficult. The
problem is often made worse because automatic signals with traffic
sensors do not detect cyclists.

Stop and wait or slow down until the group reforms.

That's exactly what we do a present. But here are a couple of
diagrams to show the difficulties, you can see that turning right is a
particular problem.

http://www.johnballcycling.org.uk/files/snakeleft
http://www.johnballcycling.org.uk/files/snakeahead
http://www.johnballcycling.org.uk/files/snakeright

The process is this:

Approaching lights take up primary position if not already in primary
position.

Indicate to trainees to form into pairs by raising hand with index and
little finger only pointing up.

Rear instructor comes forward to the stop line on the outside for
going ahead and turning left.

When lights change to green the lead instructor leads the trainees
through the juctions while the rear instructor waits at the stop line
for turning left and going ahead until the last trainee has passed
through the lights. If turning right the rear instructor takes up a
position in the centre of the junction, and indicates to trainees to
stop if lights turn to red, and then proceeds across the junction and
waits until the lights turn green.

After the junction the trainees form themselves into single file,
usually in primary position, only in secondary position if the lead
instrucor considers that there is sufficient road space for a motorist
to overtake the entire snake safely. The rear instructor will usually
take up a position close to the centre line of the road to discourage
overtaking unless it is safe to do so.

At uncontrolled junctions, instructors invite motorists to stop with
body language, but without obstructing traffic. If motorists have
chosen to stop , in both directions for going ahead or turning right
the snake can proceed across the junction.

Tom Crispin said:

Should National Standard cycling instructors be allowed to hold up
motor traffic at automatically controlled junctions if all trainees
cannot pass safely on a single phase of green?

As a NS Instructor, definitely not.

The riders should be trained to respect traffic signals and should always
be encouraged to think for themselves and obey traffic signals and signs
as individuals.
If the group is too large then consider splitting it, or telling riders
to wait beyond the junction for anyone who has to wait.
To do otherwise would be setting up unreal situations.

There is also the *very* strong possibility that trainees will then think
it OK to do the same when not under instruction.
That is hardly conducive to safe cycling and could have catastrophic
results.

John B

On 22 Jul, 09:23, Tom Crispin <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Should an organised group of cyclists, who have submitted a route plan
to the relevent authorities a week in advance, be able to consider
themselves as one vehicle and hold up motor traffic, at automatically
controlled junctions, if all cyclists cannot get through lights on a
single phase of green?

Would the above be beneficial to overall traffic flow or detrimental?

Should National Standard cycling instructors be allowed to hold up
motor traffic at automatically controlled junctions if all trainees
cannot pass safely on a single phase of green?

What is the guide ratio (Rider = Instructor) by the 'National Standard
Cycling' and are they any good if this is the sort of thing they do?

John B said:

There is also the *very* strong possibility that trainees will then think
it OK to do the same when not under instruction.
That is hardly conducive to safe cycling and could have catastrophic
results.

That is a very strong argument against inviting motorists to stop for
children at junctions, controlled or otherwise.

A couple of times, passing pedestrian signals on green, and not
following proper procedure with the rear instructor coming forward to
the stop line, the lights have subsequently changed to red and the
trainees have embarassed me by not waiting for pedestrians.

Again, I think that the lights changing are often to do with the
sensors not picking up the passing traffic of cyclists.