Traffic lights

On 22 Jul, 12:25, Tom Crispin <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 11:27:05 +0100, "vernon" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Right turns with groups of up to 15 can be particularly difficult. The
problem is often made worse because automatic signals with traffic
sensors do not detect cyclists.

Quoted message said:

Stop and wait or slow down until the group reforms.

That's exactly what we do a present. But here are a couple of
diagrams to show the difficulties, you can see that turning right is a
particular problem.

http://www.johnballcycling.org.uk/files/snakelefthttp://www.johnballcycling.org.uk/files/snakeaheadhttp://www.johnballcycling.org.uk/files/snakeright

The process is this:

Approaching lights take up primary position if not already in primary
position.

Indicate to trainees to form into pairs by raising hand with index and
little finger only pointing up.

Rear instructor comes forward to the stop line on the outside for
going ahead and turning left.

When lights change to green the lead instructor leads the trainees
through the juctions while the rear instructor waits at the stop line
for turning left and going ahead until the last trainee has passed
through the lights. If turning right the rear instructor takes up a
position in the centre of the junction, and indicates to trainees to
stop if lights turn to red, and then proceeds across the junction and
waits until the lights turn green.

After the junction the trainees form themselves into single file,
usually in primary position, only in secondary position if the lead
instrucor considers that there is sufficient road space for a motorist
to overtake the entire snake safely. The rear instructor will usually
take up a position close to the centre line of the road to discourage
overtaking unless it is safe to do so.

At uncontrolled junctions, instructors invite motorists to stop with
body language, but without obstructing traffic. If motorists have
chosen to stop , in both directions for going ahead or turning right
the snake can proceed across the junction.

What are you not doing a simpler route till all are nearly proficient,
then go for this riding in busy places.

And i'm sure you have referred and consulted the HC.
And you have done the RA on your route.

Remember All vehicle users are tested which include theory and
practicals in a safe place before going main roads.

Have you done this with your trainees?

Or do you think as a cyclist you can do as you like. Bearing in mind
you seem to be teaching/instruction other's...tut

"Tom Crispin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 09:49:18 +0100, "vernon" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

On a mass ride into central London of well over 150 cyclists it was
taking a great many phases at some juctions to get the group across
the lights, and then the group would be split by right and left
turning vehicles, causing further traffic mayhem when the advance
peletons waited to regroup with rear peletons.

If you and a co-instructor marshall 15 kids, did you have 19 helpers to cope
with with 150 cyclists?

A common sense approach would be to split the group into sub groups and have
pre-designated gathering points.

I'd be very reluctant to take more than 15 riders without assistance of at
least one other and I'd positivel;y baulk at 150 without significant
assistance and a pre-planned route with contingencies for group splits and
reformations built into it.

By all means pretend that you are a bendy bus to get single vehicle status
but do make sure that all of the bikes are conjoined ;-)

As for assistance from the police etc. did you budget for their escort fees?
I don't think that plannned processions are policed free of charge anymore.

You could of course have pretended to be Critical Mass and then you might
have got some police attention....

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 04:36:08 -0700, "The other view point, there is

one you know... said:

On 22 Jul, 09:23, Tom Crispin <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Should an organised group of cyclists, who have submitted a route plan
to the relevent authorities a week in advance, be able to consider
themselves as one vehicle and hold up motor traffic, at automatically
controlled junctions, if all cyclists cannot get through lights on a
single phase of green?

Would the above be beneficial to overall traffic flow or detrimental?

Should National Standard cycling instructors be allowed to hold up
motor traffic at automatically controlled junctions if all trainees
cannot pass safely on a single phase of green?

What is the guide ratio (Rider = Instructor) by the 'National Standard
Cycling' and are they any good if this is the sort of thing they do?

1:15 for Level 1 training (off road control skills)
1:8 for Level 2 training (residential roads)
1:2 for Level 3 training (complex junctions and busy roads)

I try to keep to the following
1:8 for level 1
1:6 for level 2
1:4 for level 3

I have been know to take 15 Year 2 children on my own, but then I have
used four Level 3 Year 6 pupils to support me with the training.

For level 3 training I conduct the training in an entirely different
manner from guidelines.

If teaching a group to turn right independently at traffic lights, for
example, I will follow each trainee (or pair of trainees) through the
junction and then return to the group to take the next trainee (or
pair) through the junction.

This diagram demonstrates the process and is the junction I use:
http://www.johnballcycling.org.uk/files/leejunct

You may have to zoom in to see the detail.

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 04:46:39 -0700, "The other view point, there is

one you know... said:

What are you not doing a simpler route till all are nearly proficient,
then go for this riding in busy places.

Training is progessive.

It starts in the school playground.
It then progresses to the park roads in Greenwich Park for signalling
and turning practice.
Then we use a cul-de-sac for road positioning and a quiet residential
street to teach the passing of side roads.
Next we use residential road junctions to teach turing left and right
into and from minor and major roads.
I then take the trainees on a 15 mile ride on a variety of roads and
cycle paths.

If passed the trainee is ready to make the journey to school
independently on residential roads, pushing across complex junctions.

My difficulties come when leading trainees to training sites in a
quick and efficient manner.

Quoted message said:

And i'm sure you have referred and consulted the HC.
And you have done the RA on your route.

All training sites are fully risk assessed, and everything compliant
with relevant traffic laws and the HC.

Quoted message said:

Remember All vehicle users are tested which include theory and
practicals in a safe place before going main roads.

Have you done this with your trainees?

Trainees are assessed at Level 1 training, and cannot progress until
passed.

Quoted message said:

Or do you think as a cyclist you can do as you like. Bearing in mind
you seem to be teaching/instruction other's...tut

No one is entitled to do as they like. A certain licence could be
granted to suitably qualified instructors if deemed suitable. A
similar licence is granted to lollipop men and women.

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 12:54:13 +0100, "vernon" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Tom Crispin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 09:49:18 +0100, "vernon" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

On a mass ride into central London of well over 150 cyclists it was
taking a great many phases at some juctions to get the group across
the lights, and then the group would be split by right and left
turning vehicles, causing further traffic mayhem when the advance
peletons waited to regroup with rear peletons.

If you and a co-instructor marshall 15 kids, did you have 19 helpers to cope
with with 150 cyclists?

It was of that order. Probably fewer, but most riders were adult.

Quoted message said:

A common sense approach would be to split the group into sub groups and have
pre-designated gathering points.

We did that too. The children's and inexperienced cyclists' peleton
led.

Quoted message said:

I'd be very reluctant to take more than 15 riders without assistance of at
least one other and I'd positivel;y baulk at 150 without significant
assistance and a pre-planned route with contingencies for group splits and
reformations built into it.

When training I try to keep group size to 12 with 2 instructors, but
am happy with 15 and 3 adults (one of whom is not an instructor), but
when someone has been sick I have managed with 15 and 2.

Quoted message said:

By all means pretend that you are a bendy bus to get single vehicle status
but do make sure that all of the bikes are conjoined ;-)

As for assistance from the police etc. did you budget for their escort fees?
I don't think that plannned processions are policed free of charge anymore.

PCSOs (police support officers) have agreed to accomapny a peleton of
35 children to there swimming lessons every term-time week next year,
free-of-charge.

Quoted message said:

You could of course have pretended to be Critical Mass and then you might
have got some police attention....

Lol.

Tom Crispin said:

Should an organised group of cyclists, who have submitted a route plan
to the relevent authorities a week in advance, be able to consider
themselves as one vehicle and hold up motor traffic, at automatically
controlled junctions, if all cyclists cannot get through lights on a
single phase of green?

Certainly not. Neither should an "organised group" of lorry drivers,
tractor drivers, horse riders, or car drivers.

Apart from anything else it would cause more antagonism between cyclists
and motorists - as if there wasn't enough already.

Quoted message said:

Would the above be beneficial to overall traffic flow or detrimental?

It is the "organised group" which is detrimental to traffic flow. You
seem to have justified banning "organised groups" of more than 2 or 3
travelling together, because of traffic flow and safety concerns.

Quoted message said:

Should National Standard cycling instructors be allowed to hold up
motor traffic at automatically controlled junctions if all trainees
cannot pass safely on a single phase of green?

Again, certainly not. Do you think that cyclists should be elevated
further above the law than they appear to be, to many, even now???
"National Standard cycling instructors" should be expected to teach
cyclists to respect the law, and more particularly, to respect other
road users.

If a group is too large to travel comfortably, safely, and confidently
under the prevailing road and traffic conditions, then I would expect a
competent instructor worth the name,would recognise that fact, and
refuse to go out with such a large and anti-social group.

--
Matt B

Matt B said:

Tom Crispin said:

Should an organised group of cyclists, who have submitted a route plan
to the relevent authorities a week in advance, be able to consider
themselves as one vehicle and hold up motor traffic, at automatically
controlled junctions, if all cyclists cannot get through lights on a
single phase of green?

Certainly not. Neither should an "organised group" of lorry drivers,
tractor drivers, horse riders, or car drivers.

Apart from anything else it would cause more antagonism between cyclists
and motorists - as if there wasn't enough already.

Quoted message said:

Would the above be beneficial to overall traffic flow or detrimental?

It is the "organised group" which is detrimental to traffic flow. You
seem to have justified banning "organised groups" of more than 2 or 3
travelling together, because of traffic flow and safety concerns.

Quoted message said:

Should National Standard cycling instructors be allowed to hold up
motor traffic at automatically controlled junctions if all trainees
cannot pass safely on a single phase of green?

Again, certainly not. Do you think that cyclists should be elevated
further above the law than they appear to be, to many, even now???
"National Standard cycling instructors" should be expected to teach
cyclists to respect the law, and more particularly, to respect other
road users.

If a group is too large to travel comfortably, safely, and confidently
under the prevailing road and traffic conditions,

Sounds like rush hour or the school run!

Tom Crispin said:

The police were unable to provide the support
they would have liked to because of the large number of events going
on in London that particular weekend and the hightened security alerts
following the attempted bombing at Glasgow Airport and in Central
London.

I think it's the Highway Authority who will switch off traffic lights
when needed (e.g. for roadworks) and they should have someone
available at the weekend if you were willing to cover the cost.
In this situation I think the best way would be for the highway
authority to open the control cabinet and manually hold the traffic
lights on green until all the cyclists have crossed - assuming such a
facility is available: If the sensors don't detect cyclists properly
the control system may be a bit antiquated and not have a manual
override.

The other solution would be to use temporary traffic lights or stop go
boards.

peter

On 22 Jul, 13:40, Tom Crispin <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 12:54:13 +0100, "vernon" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

PCSOs (police support officers) have agreed to accomapny a peleton of
35 children to there swimming lessons every term-time week next year,
free-of-charge.

Good luck with that. But;

People move, so the person who said yes, might not be available next
year.
Priorities could change and the offer is no longer.
Next year is another time frame...
Do let us know how it went.

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 11:23:28 -0700, "The other view point, there is
one you know...http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/03.htm"

Quoted message said:

On 22 Jul, 13:40, Tom Crispin <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 12:54:13 +0100, "vernon" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

PCSOs (police support officers) have agreed to accomapny a peleton of
35 children to there swimming lessons every term-time week next year,
free-of-charge.

Good luck with that. But;

People move, so the person who said yes, might not be available next
year.
Priorities could change and the offer is no longer.
Next year is another time frame...
Do let us know how it went.

When I said "next year", I should have said, "next academic year".
Fortunately, the two PCSOs accomapnying us report to different
sergeants.

I think they have their eye on one of these awards:
www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/4815.aspx

in message <[email hidden]>, Tom Crispin

(') said:

Should an organised group of cyclists, who have submitted a route plan
to the relevent authorities a week in advance, be able to consider
themselves as one vehicle and hold up motor traffic, at automatically
controlled junctions, if all cyclists cannot get through lights on a
single phase of green?

It would be very difficult to communicate this to motorists, who would just
see cyclists 'breaking the rules', and we'd get another outbreak of
hysterical hypocrisy, as over Cameron this morning.

Furthermore, I think for practicality you'd still need to break the ride
down into meaningful sized 'blocks' at traffic lights. It's not reasonable
for a stream of 5,000 cyclists, such as you get on some charity rides or
sportifs, to be treated as a 'single vehicle'. The general rule for
reliability rides and sportifs is that riders may start in groups of
twenty, and I think that's probably the maximum sensible 'block size' for
going through a traffic light, too.

Quoted message said:

Would the above be beneficial to overall traffic flow or detrimental?

Probably beneficial, /if/ the idea could be adequately communicated to
motorists (which is impossible).

Quoted message said:

Should National Standard cycling instructors be allowed to hold up
motor traffic at automatically controlled junctions if all trainees
cannot pass safely on a single phase of green?

Good question.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; If Python is executable pseudocode,
;; then Perl is executable line noise
-- seen on Slashdot.

Tom Crispin said:

As we were using main roads that was not usually a problem. The only
place that was difficult was using the bus lane to turn right onto
Tower Bridge. Regrouping was particularly difficult. And it wasn't
us who were getting frustrated, it was motorists who found it hard to
pass a mass of cyclists waiting for another mass to regroup.

Was there. Was one of the marshalls.
Tom is right, this was a really difficult one.

To be honest, and I'm going to get roasted for this one,
it really would have been safer to take the right turn at the lights and
continue the group going through as they turned to red.
It is a 20mph limit on Tower Bridge anyway, so no motorised traffic is
going anywhere fast.

As it was, the group continued straight at the junction, then tried to
form up on the next right, which is a "ramp" leading up to the bridge.
It took at least three cycles of the lights to do this, by which time
the majority of the group were heading over the bridge.

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 21:08:20 +0100, John Hearns <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Tom Crispin said:

As we were using main roads that was not usually a problem. The only
place that was difficult was using the bus lane to turn right onto
Tower Bridge. Regrouping was particularly difficult. And it wasn't
us who were getting frustrated, it was motorists who found it hard to
pass a mass of cyclists waiting for another mass to regroup.

Was there. Was one of the marshalls.
Tom is right, this was a really difficult one.

To be honest, and I'm going to get roasted for this one,
it really would have been safer to take the right turn at the lights and
continue the group going through as they turned to red.
It is a 20mph limit on Tower Bridge anyway, so no motorised traffic is
going anywhere fast.

As it was, the group continued straight at the junction, then tried to
form up on the next right, which is a "ramp" leading up to the bridge.
It took at least three cycles of the lights to do this, by which time
the majority of the group were heading over the bridge.

Here's the junction and route.

www.johnballcycling.org.uk/files/tb

It's no right turn at the box junction, and only busses and cyclists
may go straight ahead, so the green phase is particularly short.

We wanted to regroup in the area before the left turn onto Tower
Bridge, but that was choked with parked or stopped busses and coaches,
so we has to regroup on Tower Bridge road itself. Unfortunately the
wider junction area became gridlocked, mostly because of our presence.

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 11:34:49 +0100, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not if correctly marshalled.

Which would be by the police.

It's not the police who marshall at school crossing patrols, and very
often, when lights fail, traffic wardens control the traffic.

Likewise, at roadworks, workmen are delegated the authority to control
and direct traffic.

Tom Crispin said:

Right turns with groups of up to 15 can be particularly difficult. The
problem is often made worse because automatic signals with traffic
sensors do not detect cyclists.

If this is just a few junctions that you use regularly,
then it might be worth having a word with the council to
see if they can do anything. It might even divert money
away from their white line painting programme.

Martin.

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 21:21:18 GMT, Martin Dann <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Should National Standard cycling instructors be allowed to hold up
motor traffic at automatically controlled junctions if all trainees
cannot pass safely on a single phase of green?

No. What if matey is sitting in his merc, and misses a
green phase himself because you are holding him up. This
will just alienate cyclists more.

It takes 10-20 seconds to get 15 children through a controlled
junction. For going ahead or turning left, so long as the group have
arrived at the junction on red, it is not usually a problem passing on
the green phase. Turning right is harder, as very often a group
cannot progress beyond the middle of the junction until the red phase.
This leaves some children, often as young as 8, in the middle of the
road behind the stop line while the instructors and rest of the group
are beyond the junction.

Tom Crispin said:

Turning right is harder, as very often a group
cannot progress beyond the middle of the junction until the red phase.
This leaves some children, often as young as 8, in the middle of the
road behind the stop line while the instructors and rest of the group
are beyond the junction.

What about following HC rule 59:- "It may be safer to wait on the left
until there is a safe gap or to dismount and push your cycle across the
road."???

--
Matt B

Tom Crispin said:

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 21:21:18 GMT, Martin Dann <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Should National Standard cycling instructors be allowed to hold up
motor traffic at automatically controlled junctions if all trainees
cannot pass safely on a single phase of green?

No. What if matey is sitting in his merc, and misses a
green phase himself because you are holding him up. This
will just alienate cyclists more.

It takes 10-20 seconds to get 15 children through a controlled
junction. For going ahead or turning left, so long as the group have
arrived at the junction on red, it is not usually a problem passing on
the green phase. Turning right is harder, as very often a group
cannot progress beyond the middle of the junction until the red phase.
This leaves some children, often as young as 8, in the middle of the
road behind the stop line while the instructors and rest of the group
are beyond the junction.

Splitting trainees from the Instructor should never be allowed to happen.

If it does then I would question the adequacy of instructor coverage for
the group.

Incidentally the maximum I would take on the road under instruction is
five, partly because of exactly the scenario you are describing.

John B

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 21:26:06 GMT, Martin Dann <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Tom Crispin said:

Right turns with groups of up to 15 can be particularly difficult. The
problem is often made worse because automatic signals with traffic
sensors do not detect cyclists.

If this is just a few junctions that you use regularly,
then it might be worth having a word with the council to
see if they can do anything. It might even divert money
away from their white line painting programme.

Someone from the council has accompanied me with a group of children
to risk assess a route. One of the issues I had was with a split
toucan crossing across the A2 which doesn't have a central area big
enough for a whole group.

www.johnballcycling.org.uk/files/db
The green dashes mark the Waterlink Way cycle route through the toucan
crossing. The orange dots mark an alternate road route.

I have used the road route with young children, but as I am sure you
can appreciate, it is a very busy junction.

The council has said that provision for cyclists at that junction was
already excellent and there was nothing they could do. At other
junctions they have promised improvements.

John B said:

Tom Crispin said:

On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 21:21:18 GMT, Martin Dann <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

> Should National Standard cycling instructors be allowed to hold up
> motor traffic at automatically controlled junctions if all trainees
> cannot pass safely on a single phase of green?

No. What if matey is sitting in his merc, and misses a
green phase himself because you are holding him up. This
will just alienate cyclists more.

It takes 10-20 seconds to get 15 children through a controlled
junction. For going ahead or turning left, so long as the group have
arrived at the junction on red, it is not usually a problem passing on
the green phase. Turning right is harder, as very often a group
cannot progress beyond the middle of the junction until the red phase.
This leaves some children, often as young as 8, in the middle of the
road behind the stop line while the instructors and rest of the group
are beyond the junction.

Splitting trainees from the Instructor should never be allowed to happen.

If it does then I would question the adequacy of instructor coverage for
the group.

Incidentally the maximum I would take on the road under instruction is
five, partly because of exactly the scenario you are describing.

I do try to work with instructor trainee ratios not exceeding 2:12 or
3:15, where the third is a competent adult. The difficulty arises
when the third adult is unwell.