Strength Training Factors

MJuric wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In Joel Friels "Triathlete Training Bible" he has several factors for figuring out Goal weights
for lifting. These are based on a factor of body Weight. I.E. Squats shoudl be .7-.9BW.
Unfortunately, IMO, he does not list these factors for much else other than Legs I.E. Squats,
Sled, step up etc. He does list bent arm pull down but nothing else for Calves, triceps, shoulders
etc. Also he does not go into detail on how these numbers were arrived at or how they effect ones
performance. Does anyone have any links, books, articles etc that may more indepth deal with the
subject and these factors?

~Matt

I think Joel Friel only lists goal weights for legs, seated row and pull downs because he believes
these to be the core exercises which most benefit triathlon performance and other exercises should
be performed using higher reps and lighter weights in the interests of having a balanced body and
avoiding injury - e.g. ab and trunk work to protect the back. From what I can remember (reread the
book quite recently) he feels that weight training should be pretty minimal unless you are a pro and
have 3 sessions a day to play with or are particularly lacking in force.

We have to train for 3 sports already, most of us have to fit a job in as well and sports
specificity demands that training should be as close as possible to the actual sport. I guess that
for most of us our limited time would be much better spent on the road or in the water than pumping
iron. Personally I came from a rowing background where we did quite a lot of strength training and I
was able to achieve the Friel goals straight away despite not having lifted weights for 18 months.
Have found power endurance training to be useful but apart from that I have benefited a lot more
from sports specific training - I have lost half a stone or so and my maximal strength is almost
certainly less than it was when I started but I'm a lot quicker in the sports that matter!

MJuric said:

In Joel Friels "Triathlete Training Bible" he has several factors for figuring out Goal
weights for lifting. These are based on a factor of body Weight. I.E. Squats shoudl be
.7-.9BW. Unfortunately, IMO, he does not list these factors for much else other than Legs
I.E. Squats, Sled, step up etc. He does list bent arm pull down but nothing else for Calves,
triceps, shoulders etc. Also he does not go into detail on how these numbers were arrived at
or how they effect ones performance. Does anyone have any links, books, articles etc that
may more indepth deal with the subject and these factors?

~Matt

Dear Matt:

I am a Joe Friel's Ultrafit coaching associate so am familiar with his strength training plans. The
really BIG MUSCLE exercises like squat, leg press, step up are listed as a proportion of body weight
since this accurately reflects what this specific strength is meant to do--i.e., help you climb or
accelerate compared to your body weight, move that mass effectively. For triathletes, this
proportion is also important to avoid having legs that are too large for effective running. So even
if you can lift 1.0-1.2 times bodyweight to help on the bike, it would hurt the run.

As for other weight values, they are based on a the "one-rep maximum" or the amount of weight you
can consistently lift one time when maxing out. It's not the same is a true champion weight-lifter
or bodybuilding maximum where you taper, peak and psyche yourself up to lift a tremendous weight.
For endurance athletes, it's the maximum amount we can lift on an average day if we just walk into
the gym and try after some warmup. For the smaller muscle groups, those less involved in endurance
motions, this is a good value. These smaller groups vary greatly between men, women and different
body types, especially with endurance athletes who generally do not focus on them.

Note that probably 80% of all of Joe's strength pariodization exercies are done way, way below these
maximums of body-weight proportion or maximum lift capability. Only the maximums strength phase (one
out of four to six phases) gets anywhere close to these. The builk of the work involves 15-30 reps
at only 40-60% of these values, the exact figures varying at different points of the season.

The bottom line is that "weightlifting maximums" are someone like maximum heart rate in
aerobic/anaerobic training: you never really reach them in endurance competition, so they don't have
much to with the training. Even if you don't know the exact value, you can get a good idea of your
"mass-strength zone" for the higher repititions, just like you can find your lactate threshold for
multiple intervals.

You can find the exact routines for various phases within all three sports (including
specializations for cyclists, triathletes, duathletes, etc.) at www.trainingbible.com. Or email me
directly at [email hidden] or see my coaching web site at www.svi.net. I am currently working with
many athletes to focus on their strength training through the winter, and I'll be focusing on that
myself after racing Ultraman Hawaii this Thanksgiving.

MJuric said:

In Joel Friels "Triathlete Training Bible" he has several factors for figuring out Goal
weights for lifting. These are based on a factor of body Weight. I.E. Squats shoudl be
.7-.9BW. Unfortunately, IMO, he does not list these factors for much else other than Legs
I.E. Squats, Sled, step up etc. He does list bent arm pull down but nothing else for Calves,
triceps, shoulders etc. Also he does not go into detail on how these numbers were arrived at
or how they effect ones performance. Does anyone have any links, books, articles etc that
may more indepth deal with the subject and these factors?

~Matt

Dear Matt:

I am a Joe Friel's Ultrafit coaching associate so am familiar with his strength training plans. The
really BIG MUSCLE exercises like squat, leg press, step up are listed as a proportion of body weight
since this accurately reflects what this specific strength is meant to do--i.e., help you climb or
accelerate compared to your body weight, move that mass effectively. For triathletes, this
proportion is also important to avoid having legs that are too large for effective running. So even
if you can lift 1.0-1.2 times bodyweight to help on the bike, it would hurt the run.

As for other weight values, they are based on a the "one-rep maximum" or the amount of weight you
can consistently lift one time when maxing out. It's not the same is a true champion weight-lifter
or bodybuilding maximum where you taper, peak and psyche yourself up to lift a tremendous weight.
For endurance athletes, it's the maximum amount we can lift on an average day if we just walk into
the gym and try after some warmup. For the smaller muscle groups, those less involved in endurance
motions, this is a good value. These smaller groups vary greatly between men, women and different
body types, especially with endurance athletes who generally do not focus on them.

Note that probably 80% of all of Joe's strength pariodization exercies are done way, way below these
maximums of body-weight proportion or maximum lift capability. Only the maximums strength phase (one
out of four to six phases) gets anywhere close to these. The builk of the work involves 15-30 reps
at only 40-60% of these values, the exact figures varying at different points of the season.

The bottom line is that "weightlifting maximums" are someone like maximum heart rate in
aerobic/anaerobic training: you never really reach them in endurance competition, so they don't have
much to with the training. Even if you don't know the exact value, you can get a good idea of your
"mass-strength zone" for the higher repititions, just like you can find your lactate threshold for
multiple intervals.

You can find the exact routines for various phases within all three sports (including
specializations for cyclists, triathletes, duathletes, etc.) at www.trainingbible.com. Or email me
directly at [email hidden] or see my coaching web site at www.svi.net. I am currently working with
many athletes to focus on their strength training through the winter, and I'll be focusing on that
myself after racing Ultraman Hawaii this Thanksgiving.

Regards,

Tom Rodgers

(rookie) said:

MJuric wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In Joel Friels "Triathlete Training Bible" he has several factors for figuring out Goal weights
for lifting. These are based on a factor of body Weight. I.E. Squats shoudl be .7-.9BW.
Unfortunately, IMO, he does not list these factors for much else other than Legs I.E. Squats,
Sled, step up etc. He does list bent arm pull down but nothing else for Calves, triceps,
shoulders etc. Also he does not go into detail on how these numbers were arrived at or how they
effect ones performance. Does anyone have any links, books, articles etc that may more indepth
deal with the subject and these factors?

~Matt

I think Joel Friel only lists goal weights for legs, seated row and pull downs because he believes
these to be the core exercises which most benefit triathlon performance and other exercises should
be performed using higher reps and lighter weights in the interests of having a balanced body and
avoiding injury - e.g. ab and trunk work to protect the back. From what I can remember (reread the
book quite recently) he feels that weight training should be pretty minimal unless you are a pro
and have 3 sessions a day to play with or are particularly lacking in force.

Thats me. El Woosy legs. Although it's been awhile since I've read the entire book, I don't
seem to remember getting the same impression about strength training. I seemed to think he
was a proponenet of weight training. Not to the extent of interfering with a training
session due to time limitations but non the less recommended it, particularly as one ages.

Quoted message said:

We have to train for 3 sports already, most of us have to fit a job in as well and sports
specificity demands that training should be as close as possible to the actual sport. I guess that
for most of us our limited time would be much better spent on the road or in the water than pumping
iron. Personally I came from a rowing background where we did quite a lot of strength training and
I was able to achieve the Friel goals straight away despite not having lifted weights for 18
months. Have found power endurance training to be useful but apart from that I have benefited a lot
more from sports specific training - I have lost half a stone or so and my maximal strength is
almost certainly less than it was when I started but I'm a lot quicker in the sports that matter!

For the most part my strength training comes via sports specific training. In the off season
I like to spend a bit more time in the weight room. Since I definately lack in leg strength
and am well below Friels reccommended goals I feel I can make some gains here. I also like
to do all around strength training through out the year as I've found it seems to help in
several other areas as well. Before I tried to shoot for Friels goals however I was
wondering about the "science" behind the factors and how they were arrived at.

~Matt

"Tom Rodgers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am a Joe Friel's Ultrafit coaching associate so am familiar with his strength training plans.

(snip)

Quoted message said:

The bottom line is that "weightlifting maximums" are someone like maximum heart rate in
aerobic/anaerobic training: you never really reach them in endurance competition, so they don't
have much to with the training.

Tom Rodgers said:

MJuric said:

In Joel Friels "Triathlete Training Bible" he has several factors for figuring out Goal
weights for lifting. These are based on a factor of body Weight. I.E. Squats shoudl be
.7-.9BW. Unfortunately, IMO, he does not list these factors for much else other than Legs
I.E. Squats, Sled, step up etc. He does list bent arm pull down but nothing else for Calves,
triceps, shoulders etc. Also he does not go into detail on how these numbers were arrived at
or how they effect ones performance. Does anyone have any links, books, articles etc that
may more indepth deal with the subject and these factors?

~Matt

Dear Matt:

I am a Joe Friel's Ultrafit coaching associate so am familiar with his strength training plans. The
really BIG MUSCLE exercises like squat, leg press, step up are listed as a proportion of body
weight since this accurately reflects what this specific strength is meant to do--i.e., help you
climb or accelerate compared to your body weight, move that mass effectively. For triathletes, this
proportion is also important to avoid having legs that are too large for effective running. So even
if you can lift 1.0-1.2 times bodyweight to help on the bike, it would hurt the run.

Yes I wondered about this. It would seem to me, maybe falsely so, that additional
strength as long as it could be converted into usefull endurance strength would be
helpfull in any case. I suspected that the numbers were based on some balance between the
disciplines though.

Quoted message said:

As for other weight values, they are based on a the "one-rep maximum" or the amount of weight you
can consistently lift one time when maxing out. It's not the same is a true champion weight-lifter
or bodybuilding maximum where you taper, peak and psyche yourself up to lift a tremendous weight.
For endurance athletes, it's the maximum amount we can lift on an average day if we just walk into
the gym and try after some warmup. For the smaller muscle groups, those less involved in endurance
motions, this is a good value. These smaller groups vary greatly between men, women and different
body types, especially with endurance athletes who generally do not focus on them.

About the other weights, the only reccomondations I saw in TTB, other than legs, was lat
pull downs. Are there no recommendatations for the "swimming groups"

Quoted message said:

Note that probably 80% of all of Joe's strength pariodization exercies are done way, way below
these maximums of body-weight proportion or maximum lift capability. Only the maximums strength
phase (one out of four to six phases) gets anywhere close to these. The builk of the work
involves 15-30 reps at only 40-60% of these values, the exact figures varying at different points
of the season.

Yes I noticed this. For me I look at the MS phase, as the "Base" phase of strength training.

Quoted message said:

The bottom line is that "weightlifting maximums" are someone like maximum heart rate in
aerobic/anaerobic training: you never really reach them in endurance competition, so they don't
have much to with the training. Even if you don't know the exact value, you can get a good idea of
your "mass-strength zone" for the higher repititions, just like you can find your lactate threshold
for multiple intervals.

I guess I somewhat disagree here. Seems that MAX HR is a barrier with little meaning or
effect on training. Supposedly Max HR cannot be affected by training. However we can move
other training barriers up the scale, such as LT etc. In the case of Max weight, it may be a
barrier similar to Max HR in the sense that we will never reach it in an endurance event,
but we can effect it by training. If we can not only move the max up and move the percentage
of max up, it seems to me that we would a duplicitas positive effect. I.E. (Using mean
nothing numbers) if we can produce 100 watts at present and our max lift is 200 lbs then the
100 watts is a 50% factor of max weight. We can go out and do endurance training and raise
that wattage to 125 with the same max weight and end up with a 62% factor. Now if we did
both the endurance and the strsngth training moving the factor to 62% adn max lift to 250 we
would produce 156 watts. Of course the above is simply how I "Think" it would work and it is
entirely possible that it is not possible to do the above scenario for some physiological
reason I am unware of.

Quoted message said:

You can find the exact routines for various phases within all three sports (including
specializations for cyclists, triathletes, duathletes, etc.) at www.trainingbible.com. Or email me
directly at [email hidden] or see my coaching web site at www.svi.net. I am currently working with
many athletes to focus on their strength training through the winter, and I'll be focusing on that
myself after racing Ultraman Hawaii this Thanksgiving.

I have the book, but I'll check out the site to see if it's different.

~Matt

Andy Coggan said:

"Tom Rodgers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am a Joe Friel's Ultrafit coaching associate so am familiar with his strength training plans.

(snip)

Quoted message said:

The bottom line is that "weightlifting maximums" are someone like maximum heart rate in
aerobic/anaerobic training: you never really reach them in endurance competition, so they don't
have much to with the training.

Seems your response was truncated. I would appreciate hearing from a respected source such
as yourself.

Andy Coggan said:

"Tom Rodgers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am a Joe Friel's Ultrafit coaching associate so am familiar with his strength training plans.

(snip)

Quoted message said:

The bottom line is that "weightlifting maximums" are someone like maximum heart rate in
aerobic/anaerobic training: you never really reach them in endurance competition, so they don't
have much to with the training.

Could you look at my reply to Tom's post and see if I'm completely off my rocker? The patr
about teh relationship of Max lift to power output.

~Matt