Digital cameras

Michael Elcock said:

Here are my requirements; I haven't found anything that meets all of them
yet:

Must have:
Reasonably compact (fits on a waste band) but can be used easily and quickly
with large fingers/gloves
At least 4 megapixels
At least 3x optical zoom
Negligible lag
Videoclips (I believe Fuji are the best here as they are 640x480)
Card - any, but the higher the capacity the better
Long battery life & rechargeable
Wide angle (My Fuji was rather narrow)
Good pictures in bad weather (high ISO?)
Viewfinder or good LCD in sunlight
Robust if wet or dropped

The "robust if wet or dropped" was what really sold me on the Olympus Mu
725 SW, though I wanted formally water*proof* for sea kayaking wet
exits. Olympus claim shock-proof too... I have taken underwater video
with it so I know it's waterproof, but haven't felt inclined to test the
shock-proofing! It's 7 MPix and has a 3x optical zoom.
Where it falls down for your list is long battery life, /but/ it's easy
enough to carry spares, they are rechargeable and don't take up much
space. Mine has a 1 Gb card in it which is good for 500 odd high
resolution images, or a lot more at lower res. As with the batteries,
carrying spares shouldn't be hard.
One reason battery life isn't great is there's no viewfinder. I've yet
to be defeated by sun, but there are times when a viewfinder would be
nice. OTOH, if it had a viewfinder too it would be bigger, clumsier and
heavier, so you have to decide on your priorities.

It's very compact, I seem to be managing to get things out of it and I'm
no photographer, and the extra bomb-proofing is a Big Win for me. You
will be able to get cameras that, given suitable knowledge and patience,
will take better pictures. But if they'll be smiling after you drop
them in a puddle, or they get rained on for 8 hours solid, would be
another matter.

Maybe worth a look, anyway...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Michael Elcock said:

Can anyone recommend a good digital camera suitable for walking & trekking
(including 4 weeks away from power)?
My Fuji 4800Zoom has been excellent but it is a bit past it now.

Quoted message said:

Here are my requirements; I haven't found anything that meets all of them
yet:

Quoted message said:

Must have:
Reasonably compact (fits on a waste band) but can be used easily and quickly
with large fingers/gloves
At least 4 megapixels
At least 3x optical zoom
Negligible lag
Videoclips (I believe Fuji are the best here as they are 640x480)
Card - any, but the higher the capacity the better
Long battery life & rechargeable
Wide angle (My Fuji was rather narrow)
Good pictures in bad weather (high ISO?)
Viewfinder or good LCD in sunlight
Robust if wet or dropped

Quoted message said:

Nice to have:
Panoramic pictures or widescreen
Image stabiliser
Face detection
Cradle

Pete has:
http://www.olympus.co.uk/consumer/29_mju_725_SW.htm?redirect

and seems quite happy with it. It may be more compact than you're looking
for, not sure how well it works with bulky gloves. It has the robustness
you're after and the image quality and 640x480 video etc. It doesn't have
a viewfinder - the LCD is good but if you're looking into bright light it
can be difficult.
I got it with a deal that included a second rechargeable battery and a 1Gb
memory stick which is enough for anything we want to do with it. Not sure
if 2 batteries will last you 4 weeks if you use the screen a lot to browse
and edit. But the batteries are small so I suppose you could get another
one.

Roos

If you're after P&S then sticking with Fuji would be a good
strategy. P&S quality in general is beginning to slip but Fuji
consistently come out well on reviews and the E550 is an
excellent compact.

Chris

"Michael Elcock" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Can anyone recommend a good digital camera suitable for walking & trekking
(including 4 weeks away from power)?
My Fuji 4800Zoom has been excellent but it is a bit past it now.

Here are my requirements; I haven't found anything that meets all of them
yet:

Must have:
Reasonably compact (fits on a waste band) but can be used easily and
quickly with large fingers/gloves
At least 4 megapixels
At least 3x optical zoom
Negligible lag
Videoclips (I believe Fuji are the best here as they are 640x480)
Card - any, but the higher the capacity the better
Long battery life & rechargeable
Wide angle (My Fuji was rather narrow)
Good pictures in bad weather (high ISO?)
Viewfinder or good LCD in sunlight
Robust if wet or dropped

Nice to have:
Panoramic pictures or widescreen
Image stabiliser
Face detection
Cradle

Many thanks for any help,
Michael Elcock
www.whitecottage.org

"Michael Elcock" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Can anyone recommend a good digital camera suitable for walking & trekking
(including 4 weeks away from power)?
My Fuji 4800Zoom has been excellent but it is a bit past it now.

Here are my requirements; I haven't found anything that meets all of them
yet:

Must have:
Reasonably compact (fits on a waste band) but can be used easily and

quickly

Quoted message said:

with large fingers/gloves
At least 4 megapixels
At least 3x optical zoom
Negligible lag
Videoclips (I believe Fuji are the best here as they are 640x480)
Card - any, but the higher the capacity the better
Long battery life & rechargeable
Wide angle (My Fuji was rather narrow)
Good pictures in bad weather (high ISO?)
Viewfinder or good LCD in sunlight
Robust if wet or dropped

Nice to have:
Panoramic pictures or widescreen
Image stabiliser
Face detection
Cradle

Neither of the above have a wideangle (at least 28mm wide) lens which I
agree is pretty essential. The Olympus is 38mm and the Fuji 32.5mm. If it
wasn't for that (or you're not too bothered because you won't take too many
landscapes) then I like the look of the Canon G7 or Nikon P5000.

So I would look at the Panasonic LX2, FX07, FX30 or TZ3, and Canon Powershot
SD800IS (Ixus850 IS). The Canon is the only one with a viewfinder (optical)
sadly. All have image stabilisation, the Canon is the smallest and
lightest.

I have the LX2 and like it a lot - it has a 28mm lens, sensor and LCD, fully
manual and supports RAW. It is fine noise-wise except at high (400+ ) ISO
which I doubt you'll need on the fells! Quite small, not a 'trouser pocket
cam' but fine in a coat/jacket.

If you're not bothered about fully manual and are happy with auto or scene
modes, then one of the FX models (very similar to each other) will be OK or
the TZ3 - which is distinctive because it has a 10x zoom. I have an FX01
and it is a great pocket cam, takes good movies too. Battery life for both
Panasonics I have is superb.

I've no experience with Canons but obviously it will be pretty good -
though not as fine imagewise as other Canons or the LX2, I think, reading
the reviews on http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canonsd800is/page11.asp

In message <[email hidden]>

Michael Elcock said:

Robust if wet or dropped

My Nikon Coolpix 3200, whilst not living up to many of your other
requirements (and has probably been superseded by something else by now)
certainly lives up to robustness - I tripped whilst holding it underground,
and it crunched into the ground and water, whilst still in my hand. The
lenscover popped off and was lost, but the only other damage was a scratch
on the body. I even took a few more pictures with it that day.

--
Simon Challands

Michael Elcock said:

Can anyone recommend a good digital camera suitable for walking &
trekking (including 4 weeks away from power)?

Probably not.

Quoted message said:

Here are my requirements; I haven't found anything that meets all of
them yet:

That's the problem, finding them all in one camera is virtually impossible,
that's why you need multiple cameras! ;-)

Quoted message said:

Must have:
Reasonably compact (fits on a waste band) but can be used easily and
quickly with large fingers/gloves

That's easy, but not with all the other features you want.

Quoted message said:

At least 4 megapixels

Easy, but I'd recommend 6 or 7. That will give you more flexibility for
cropping, plus the ability to make a bigger print for the occasional special
shot. For example the Olympus SP-550 UZ or the Canon S70 (quite cheap
second-hand).

Quoted message said:

At least 3x optical zoom

That's easy too, but again, I'd recommend more. A long zoom is incredibly
useful. For example the Olympus SP-550 UZ, which has an incredible 500mm
optical zoom! It's also smaller than you'd expect for a camera with such a
long lens.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Olympus/oly_sp550uz.asp

Quoted message said:

Negligible lag

All digicams have lag, it's primarily down to slow auto-focus (you'll need
an SLR for fast auto-focus), and also auto exposure. Set the exposure and
focusing manually and they can be virtually instant. For landscapes focusing
isn't really a problem, focusing on infinity will work fine for most shots.
For action shots, digicam auto-focus is pretty useless anyway.

Quoted message said:

Videoclips (I believe Fuji are the best here as they are 640x480)

Oh no they aren't! Check out the Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX2. It does widescreen
video at 1280x720 at 15fps or 848x480 at 30 fps! Oh, and it's also 10MP with
a 28-112mm zoom.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Panasonic/panasonic_dmclx2.asp

Quoted message said:

Card - any, but the higher the capacity the better

Flash cards are best IMO, larger, more robust and much cheaper. Very
important for long trips.

Quoted message said:

Long battery life & rechargeable

No idea, I gather most are pretty good these days. I favour lithium but you
may not.

Quoted message said:

Wide angle (My Fuji was rather narrow)

Very few digicams offer a decent wide-angle. Most are only 35mm. 28mm is
rare, but is available on some, in particular the three I've mentioned, the
Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX2, Canon S70 and the Olympus SP-550 UZ.

Quoted message said:

Good pictures in bad weather (high ISO?)

I wouldn't expect this from any digicam. I'd never use a digicam higher than
it's lowest ISO personally. For that reason, look for a camera that has a
bright lens (smallest f-number) rather than high ISO capability. Most only
go to f2.8, but a few go up to f2.

If you really must use high ISO, I gather the latest Fuji cameras are pretty
good. In fact, I think that Fuji currently produces some of the best quality
images in digicams.

Quoted message said:

Viewfinder or good LCD in sunlight

Viewfinders are rubbish on digicams IMO, far better to use the LCD.

Quoted message said:

Robust if wet or dropped

Unfortunately there are very few of these. My advice is just to be careful
with it. It's surprising really, given how popular cameras are for outdoor
activities, you'd think there'd be a lot more waterproof designs. My
recommendation here, although not a cheap option, is to get the Canon S-70
with the underwater case. That'll survive anything! Fortunately the camera
can be picked up cheaply second hand these days, but the waterproof case is
still quite expensive, about £130 IIRC. Would make it bombproof though!
There are also cheaper types of waterproof cases available which fit a wide
variety of cameras, but the one I'm talking about is a moulded hard plastic
case with buttons to control every camera feature.

Quoted message said:

Nice to have:
Panoramic pictures or widescreen

All cameras can do panoramic, you just take a few separate shots and stitch
them together later. So if you don't have a wide angle, simply turn the
camera vertical and take three or more shots horizontally to create a very
wide image.

As for widescreen, check out the Panasonics, they seem to specialise in
them, particularly if you want it for video.

Quoted message said:

Image stabiliser

Both the Olympus and the Panasonic I mentioned have this.

Quoted message said:

Face detection

Don't know about that. Some software has it now, doesn't it? Like Photoshop
Elements?

Quoted message said:

Cradle

What?

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk

Alex said:

Neither of the above have a wideangle (at least 28mm wide) lens which
I agree is pretty essential.

For landscapes yes. In fact, the easiest way to narrow down your choice of
digicams is to immediately eliminate all cameras that don't have a 28mm
lens. There won't be many left to choose from after you do that!

Quoted message said:

The Olympus is 38mm and the Fuji
32.5mm. If it wasn't for that (or you're not too bothered because
you won't take too many landscapes) then I like the look of the Canon
G7 or Nikon P5000.

Bear in mind that you can get wide-angle converters for some cameras, the G7
being one of them. I think it will turn it into a 24mm. However you get a
lot of distortion and it adds extra weight and quite a lot of bulk. In fact,
if you add a tele and wide converter to a digicam, what you end up with
isn't much lighter or smaller than a DSLR and an extra lens.

Quoted message said:

It is fine noise-wise except at
high (400+ ) ISO which I doubt you'll need on the fells!

Wanna bet?

Okay, maybe I'm not typical in my penchant for taking photos an hour after
sunset, but even during normal daylight hours there are plenty of situations
when a higher ISO is useful, particularly in deep forested valleys on
overcast days. And how many walkers encounter a sunset on the way back from
a walk? My recommendation, for everyone, is to carry a tripod. No, I don't
expect a digicam user to carry a serious tripod, but instead one of those
tiny table top or bendy leg pocket tripods. They weight hardly anything and
can fit in a pocket. A true life saver if you want to photograph a sunset or
something really dark.

Case in point, I took a photo 70 minutes after sunset on my last trip and I
had to use ISO 1600 at 30 seconds to get a decent exposure! Fortunately ISO
1600 on a DSLR is nowhere near as bad as it would be on a digicam (if it had
it), but even so, I can't say I'm happy with the quality.

Quoted message said:

I've no experience with Canons but obviously it will be pretty good -

I have, and I can assure you that the quality is excellent. Can't speak for
the cheaper models though.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk

Paul Saunders said:

Michael Elcock wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Cradle

What?

A fancy device to dock the camera with the PC to recharge it's
batteries and or download stuff from the flash card to the PC.

Far better to use a card reader IMO.

--
Phil Cook, last hill: Heron Pike via Nab Scar.

Peter Clinch said:

You will be able to get cameras that, given suitable knowledge and
patience, will take better pictures. But if they'll be smiling after
you drop them in a puddle, or they get rained on for 8 hours solid,
would be another matter.

This is very true. As I mentioned in another post, it surprises me that more
waterproof models aren't produced, given the popularity of outdoor
photography.

Speaking as a serious photographer though, if you can't afford to spend 5
grand on a top of the range professional model with full waterproofing (why
don't they waterproof the 1 grand cameras?), my take on it is that if you
care about photography, you go for the gear that takes the best quality
pictures, and you do what you have to do to ensure that they don't get
damaged.

Put simply, I take a lot of care of my cameras. I'm probably more likely to
fall and break a leg than I am to damage a camera. One of my rules is to
only change lenses and stuff whilst stationary, and to put the camera back
into the camera bag before moving across difficult ground. For example,
let's say I want to take a photo from the middle of a river. I'll keep the
camera in the bag before negotiating the stepping stones, then set up the
tripod, then take out the camera to take the photo. Then I'll pack it away
safely before walking back.

Walking with a camera in your hand, or even dangling around your neck, is
asking for trouble on difficult terrain. I learned my lesson when walking
across rough rocky terrain on the coast once. I had my SLR around my neck
and was holding onto it with one hand. My "plan" was that if I slipped, I'd
continue to hold onto the camera and use my one free hand to break my fall.

The worst happened. I did slip. Guess what? Instinctively I let go of the
camera and used both hands to break my fall, in spite of a conscious
decision not to do that. Result was that the camera swung around but
fortunately didn't hit a rock, although it could easily have done so. From
then on, I decided not to trust myself and in difficult terrain have always
packed my camera safely into its padded case before moving on, even though
that consumes valuable time.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk

Phil Cook said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Cradle

What?

A fancy device to dock the camera with the PC to recharge it's
batteries and or download stuff from the flash card to the PC.

Ah.

Quoted message said:

Far better to use a card reader IMO.

Definitely. That way you can go back outside to continue taking photos while
your card reader is copying files to the computer.

Handy if you're photographing something at home, like an eclipse for
example.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk

Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Walking with a camera in your hand, or even dangling around your neck, is
asking for trouble on difficult terrain. I learned my lesson when walking
across rough rocky terrain on the coast once. I had my SLR around my neck
and was holding onto it with one hand. My "plan" was that if I slipped, I'd
continue to hold onto the camera and use my one free hand to break my fall.

The worst happened. I did slip. Guess what? Instinctively I let go of the
camera and used both hands to break my fall, in spite of a conscious
decision not to do that. Result was that the camera swung around but
fortunately didn't hit a rock, although it could easily have done so. From
then on, I decided not to trust myself and in difficult terrain have always
packed my camera safely into its padded case before moving on, even though
that consumes valuable time.

My latest toy slips into my shirt pocket, or probably a zipped pocket in
my coat when I am walking. I got fed up with the decision whether to
carry the S5500, so now I carry it only on easy walks in good weather
when photography is one of the main interests.

Fired by the enthusiasm of Mavis's son, who spent a few days with her
last weekend, we both bought a Casio Exilim S600, a tiny 6Mp 3x zoom
camera, and first impressions are quite impressive.
It was on offer at £50 squid off with any trade-in, and we found a
couple of old cameras at his mum's place..

It's a take-anywhere camera.

"Latest" album at:

http://tinyurl.com/5qz49
--
Gordon H
(Remove invalid to email)

Gordon H said:

Fired by the enthusiasm of Mavis's son, who spent a few days with her
last weekend, we both bought a Casio Exilim S600, a tiny 6Mp 3x zoom
camera, and first impressions are quite impressive.
It was on offer at £50 squid off with any trade-in, and we found a
couple of old cameras at his mum's place..

It's a take-anywhere camera.

Hey that's great Gordon! Any photo is better than none at all. Go for it!

I really must start carrying a go-anywhere-camera!

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Speaking as a serious photographer though, if you can't afford to spend 5
grand on a top of the range professional model with full waterproofing

(why

Quoted message said:

don't they waterproof the 1 grand cameras?).

My Nikon D200 DSLR is weather sealed, but not water proof. I think the
battery/card compartments and those for cables etc on any camera simply
can't be fully waterproofed.

I took the D200 up a mountain earlier this month, but never again I think -
just too heavy and bulky. Next time I'll take the LX2. Maybe a D40 would
be OK.

In message <[email hidden]>

Alex said:

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Speaking as a serious photographer though, if you can't afford to spend 5
grand on a top of the range professional model with full waterproofing

(why

Quoted message said:

don't they waterproof the 1 grand cameras?).

My Nikon D200 DSLR is weather sealed, but not water proof. I think the
battery/card compartments and those for cables etc on any camera simply
can't be fully waterproofed.

I took the D200 up a mountain earlier this month, but never again I think -
just too heavy and bulky. Next time I'll take the LX2. Maybe a D40 would
be OK.

I've taken my Olympus E400 DSLR on several long mountain walks now. It's
about the same size as my older OM2n or OM2SP which I used to
regular carry around on mountain walks, but the E400 and its lenses are
much lighter. I keep the DSLR cameras inside a waterproof bag inside the
rucksack in bad weather conditions.

Having said that I'm off ski-mountaineering for two weeks soon and for
that I'll be carrying my digital compacts, a mju 410 and a C70Z. The mju
410 is kept handy for use in bad snow and weather conditions since it is
fully weatherproofed. Both have an optical veiwfinder which I find much
easier in bright sunlit snow conditions.

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

Alex said:

My Nikon D200 DSLR is weather sealed, but not water proof. I think the
battery/card compartments and those for cables etc on any camera simply
can't be fully waterproofed.

My Mju 725 SW has battery/card openings and a cable port, and it /is/
fully waterproof. Since they'd have to give me a new one if it wasn't
as waterproof as advertised, I tested it by taking underwater video, and
it includes specific shooting setups for underwater that seem to work
pretty well.

My guess is that underwater plus serious optics and setup fiddling
options is /not/ a big market, and the extra cost of fully waterproofing
an SLR equivalent will bump up the price to the point of knocking you
out of a lot of your own market. Even the market for waterproof point
and shoot is pretty small with only a few models.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Alex said:

My Nikon D200 DSLR is weather sealed, but not water proof. I think the
battery/card compartments and those for cables etc on any camera simply
can't be fully waterproofed.

My Mju 725 SW has battery/card openings and a cable port, and it /is/
fully waterproof. Since they'd have to give me a new one if it wasn't as
waterproof as advertised, I tested it by taking underwater video, and it
includes specific shooting setups for underwater that seem to work pretty
well.

It's only advertised as "waterproof equivalent to IEC 529 IPX8" (to 5m) - I
guess while underwater you start to ponder the word "equivalent" :o)

(Don't have a copy of IEC 529 IPX8, you have to pay for it)

Hopefully not like watches: 25m=splashproof, 50m=swimming, 100m=snorkelling

--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

Bob Mannix said:

It's only advertised as "waterproof equivalent to IEC 529 IPX8" (to 5m) - I
guess while underwater you start to ponder the word "equivalent" :o)

Not until I get to 5m, and I can't see my ears being too interested in
that in the normal course of events...

Quoted message said:

Hopefully not like watches: 25m=splashproof, 50m=swimming, 100m=snorkelling

I don't think that's entirely fair, it's "water resistant" you need to
look out for (like "showerproof" jackets).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bob Mannix said:

It's only advertised as "waterproof equivalent to IEC 529 IPX8" (to 5m) -
I guess while underwater you start to ponder the word "equivalent" :o)

Not until I get to 5m, and I can't see my ears being too interested in
that in the normal course of events...

Quoted message said:

Hopefully not like watches: 25m=splashproof, 50m=swimming,
100m=snorkelling

I don't think that's entirely fair, it's "water resistant" you need to
look out for (like "showerproof" jackets).

Au contraire, the table I gave was actually printed (roughly as shown) in a
watch instruction booklet (Casio) I got! I actually prefer to buy 200m
watches ("diving"😉 as I reckon they'll survive snorkelling the longest! In
any case it's obviously fair, I mean come on - 100m?? Annoyingly the IEC
standard for your camera can only be purchased, it may very well be a "good"
equivalent. Looks a nice camera BTW.

--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

I have a Minolta Dinax Z1. It isnt that small but it does fit in the palm
very nicely and is fantastic in every other respect you mention. It uses
four AA batteries so I always take a load with me(and they are reasonably
easy to get hold of in most places unless you are in true wilderness for
long periods). No lag on picture and feels and acts like an SLR(with
adjustable focus, exposure and shutter). Will do short video and sound but
this is normally card-dependent.

Rob

"Michael Elcock" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Can anyone recommend a good digital camera suitable for walking & trekking
(including 4 weeks away from power)?
My Fuji 4800Zoom has been excellent but it is a bit past it now.

Here are my requirements; I haven't found anything that meets all of them
yet:

Must have:
Reasonably compact (fits on a waste band) but can be used easily and
quickly with large fingers/gloves
At least 4 megapixels
At least 3x optical zoom
Negligible lag
Videoclips (I believe Fuji are the best here as they are 640x480)
Card - any, but the higher the capacity the better
Long battery life & rechargeable
Wide angle (My Fuji was rather narrow)
Good pictures in bad weather (high ISO?)
Viewfinder or good LCD in sunlight
Robust if wet or dropped

Nice to have:
Panoramic pictures or widescreen
Image stabiliser
Face detection
Cradle

Many thanks for any help,
Michael Elcock
www.whitecottage.org