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Topanga 10k report

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
27 May 2007
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5 June 2007
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D Stumpus
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  1. This was done on a wing and a prayer. I messed up my navicular (probably a
    stress fracture) a in mid March and have been "jogging" and hiking a lot
    since then. A lot of very slow running, hiking, and days off. I've got
    tan lines from my ankle support. Lately I've been able to do some medium
    effort on uphills, so that's something.

    This was my first hard run in a couple of months. My plan was if my foot
    hurt at all, I'd jog/walk it in. This was the first run in awhile without
    my ankle support. ("Heealll! Throw those crutches away!)

    Here's the course with elevation profile:
    http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=990287

    Per my atmospheric altimeter watch, the loop course has 1200' of climb. My
    plan was to run it a few minutes faster than last year. Last year this race
    was also my first fast run after an injury (chondromalacia, or painful
    kneecaps). But this time my shoes were 9 oz each lighter, and I took a
    couple of days off, largely to give my navicular bone some quality healing
    time. I figured those two adjustments were good for 3 minutes, so I was
    hoping for high 47 or low 48 minutes.

    I lined up in the first row for the downhill start, since I'd planned for a
    top 15 finish and downhills are my favorite. I'm 55, so I scanned out the
    age-group competition. It was gonna be tough: Perry Forester (Olympic
    trials in the marathon in '80) was looking lean and mean, and another very
    skinny confident 55+ guy were right next to me up front.

    I blasted down the hill, briefly holding 4th place, backed off as it
    leveled, then let about 20 runners by over the sharp quarter-mile climb.
    Fortunately, that was the last time I'd be passed in the race. I tried to
    zero in on the perfect pace on the first mile (~425' straight up). I
    settled in to a 2-step breathing rhythm with no leg burn, just a tad below
    the pain point.

    On hill races, my strategy is to run comfortably hard on the ups and hurt
    the downs. Mile 1 came up. Last year I hit it in about 10:00. This time I
    got a 9:22, and it felt easier. A good sign. I passed about 10 runners
    through 2.5 miles, all on the uphills, which was surprising since I was
    holding back a bit. On every little down I really picked up the effort.

    At 2.5 I was alone. The folks in front of me were at least 30 seconds up,
    and I'd put a cushion behind me. I ran solo for the rest of the race (up
    until the last few yards!). At the turn around, I splurged and stopped a
    couple seconds and gulped down some water, then set out for the mostly
    downhill final 5k.

    Fast downhills were what messed up my foot, so I was careful with every
    step, and probably held back just a tad. If anyone was within striking
    distance or was breathing down my neck I could have gone a bit faster, but I
    was happy that I could run at what seemed a good pace without any foot pain.

    At 6 miles I couldn't hear any footsteps, so I backed off a bit on the final
    uphill (same thing I did last year when I got jumped at the finish and had
    to go all out). About 50 feet from the line I picked it up a bit, and I'm
    glad I did: as I crossed the line, a hard charging 30 something ran into me
    from behind! I must suffer from race-deafness, hyper optimism, or some
    other syndrome :-)

    Anyway, I was a bit disappointed to miss 47 minutes, and had to settle for
    48:07ish. But hey, that's 3 minutes faster than last year. I'm hopeful
    that if I lose that 8 lbs * and get some solid training in (and stay
    healthy!) that I can run a couple of minutes faster.

    Splits:
    Mile 1 9:22 (425' climb)
    Mile 2 9:04 (350' climb)
    Mile 3-4 14:55 (250' up and down)
    Mile 5 7:24 (200' down and up)
    Mile 6 5:48 (400' down)
    ..21 (or .33?) 7:05 pace (30' down and up)

    Stats by memory: 14/~300 2nd in 55+ ( but faster than any 45-49!). Got a
    very nice site-engraved medal, and a hot breakfast. A buddy said that for
    swag, the race to do is the Pride 5 or 10k in West Hollywood, less than 200
    runners and lots of prizes. Who knows, maybe I'll run into TBR there?

    -- Dan

    * Any similarity to the 4kg that Steve Common is cursed with is purely
    coincidental.

  2. Dan said:

    Anyway, I was a bit disappointed to miss 47 minutes, and had to settle
    for 48:07ish. But hey, that's 3 minutes faster than last year.
    [...]
    Stats by memory: 14/~300 2nd in 55+ ( but faster than any 45-49!).

    Tremendous, Dan! Congrats.

    Which geezer finished in front of you, that Forester guy? And how's
    the hoof?

    All: this is an especially super terrific spot for running, with
    terrain maybe even a tad more challenging than NYC's Central Park.
    Dan and I ran this in, what, about sixty minutes back in December, and
    that was no easy jog. You might zoom out and/or pan around a bit in
    the map Dan linked for geographical context.

    Quoted message said:

    About 50 feet from the line I picked it up a bit, and I'm glad
    I did: as I crossed the line, a hard charging 30 something ran
    into me from behind!

    That sounds odd. Is the finish line so narrow, like maybe the mouth
    of a chute, that there's not room to go around?

    Quoted message said:

    A buddy said that for swag, the race to do is the Pride 5 or
    10k in West Hollywood, less than 200 runners and lots of
    prizes. Who knows, maybe I'll run into TBR there?

    Or maybe the hard charging 30 something will run into TBR there.

  3. Do you have a pic of your running legs?

    I'm just wondering what a real hill-runner's legs look like ...

  4. Twittering One said:

    Do you have a pic of your running legs?

    I'm just wondering what a real hill-runner's legs look like ...


    What ever; they can't compare to some middle distance legs :-)

    martin

  5. D Stumpus said:

    This was my first hard run in a couple of months. My plan was if my foot
    hurt at all, I'd jog/walk it in. This was the first run in awhile without
    my ankle support. ("Heealll! Throw those crutches away!)

    you made your first run without any ankle support a hilly 10k race?? 🙂
    i am not criticizing, just amused 🙂

    anyway, good to see you're back in the saddle, so to speak.

    h

  6. Quoted message said:

    On hill races, my strategy is to run comfortably hard on the ups and
    hurt the downs.

    Interesting. Is this maintaining effort, or is your HR actually higher on
    the downs?

    But...

    Quoted message said:

    Fast downhills were what messed up my foot, so I was careful with
    every step, and probably held back just a tad.

    ???

    Quoted message said:

    Anyway, I was a bit disappointed to miss 47 minutes, and had to settle
    for 48:07ish. But hey, that's 3 minutes faster than last year. I'm
    hopeful that if I lose that 8 lbs * and get some solid training in
    (and stay healthy!) that I can run a couple of minutes faster.

    Here's a Google Earth snapshot of the course:
    http://i7.tinypic.com/6c6ly84.jpg

    Thanks for the report. Looks like a lot of fun.

    --
    Phil M.

  7. "Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    On hill races, my strategy is to run comfortably hard on the ups and
    hurt the downs.

    Interesting. Is this maintaining effort, or is your HR actually higher on
    the downs?

    Noticably higher effort. Didn't have my monitor, but I'm pretty sure it was
    higher on downs. I push into the pain zone (above 165hr for me) if the
    terrain allows it. Rocks, roots, etc slow me down 'cause I'm a wuss about
    falling or reinjuring myself.

    I'm always telling my acquaintances that you'll get a better time if you
    back off a bit on the big hills, but I guess it's something most people have
    to learn themselves (or never learn, as the case may be).

    Quoted message said:

    But...

    Quoted message said:

    Fast downhills were what messed up my foot, so I was careful with
    every step, and probably held back just a tad.

    Quoted message said:

    ???

    Yeah, sounds like double-talk, but here's the scoop:

    By careful every step I kept my eyes down on the road. I naturally tend to
    let my gaze wander off into the distance, with quick glances down. In my
    injured state even a slight misstep or slip which causes the foot to deflect
    more than normal would cause it to hurt. The misstep rate is much lower
    when I'm focusing on the road.

    Even though I was in the pain zone, I was not at the redline, at full
    stride. I could have gone faster. Last year I was hurting a lot more in
    the last miles (with a slower time, go figure).

    Quoted message said:

    Thanks for the report. Looks like a lot of fun.

    YW.

  8. "Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Tremendous, Dan! Congrats.

    Thanks.

    Quoted message said:

    Which geezer finished in front of you, that Forester guy? And how's
    the hoof?

    Both Forester and the real skinny guy. Forester (age 54) beat me by 3:30 or
    so, and the other guy by 1:30. Forester is national class, so he's just
    gonna beat me. The other guy is about my ability based on youthful
    performances, but he is at optimal race weight. If I can get down to
    fighting weight again, and get some speed training, I think I can compete
    with him.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    About 50 feet from the line I picked it up a bit, and I'm glad
    I did: as I crossed the line, a hard charging 30 something ran
    into me from behind!

    That sounds odd. Is the finish line so narrow, like maybe the mouth
    of a chute, that there's not room to go around?

    A very narrow chute, only 5-6 feet wide at the mouth. I was hogging the
    middle 2 feet, so there wasn't much room to go by, and he was trying like
    hell to catch me so was a bit out of control, I imagine. This year a
    monitor told him to get behind me in the chute (last year I kicked down a
    guy but he got ahead of me in the chute and turned his number in ahead of
    me).

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    A buddy said that for swag, the race to do is the Pride 5 or
    10k in West Hollywood, less than 200 runners and lots of
    prizes. Who knows, maybe I'll run into TBR there?

    Or maybe the hard charging 30 something will run into TBR there.

    :-)

  9. "h squared" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    This was my first hard run in a couple of months. My plan was if my foot
    hurt at all, I'd jog/walk it in. This was the first run in awhile
    without my ankle support. ("Heealll! Throw those crutches away!)

    Quoted message said:

    you made your first run without any ankle support a hilly 10k race?? 🙂 i
    am not criticizing, just amused 🙂

    I did a bit of running without it on my hike on Thursday without problems,
    and when I race I'm on my forefoot the whole way on ups, flats and downs, so
    heel support is less important. (And it weighs several ounces :-)

    Quoted message said:

    anyway, good to see you're back in the saddle, so to speak.

    Thanks, but I plan to gradually increase the training load anyway, and will
    take Monday off on General Principles.

  10. "D Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    ....

    Quoted message said:

    Anyway, I was a bit disappointed to miss 47 minutes, and had to settle for
    48:07ish. But hey, that's 3 minutes faster than last year. I'm hopeful
    that if I lose that 8 lbs * and get some solid training in (and stay
    healthy!) that I can run a couple of minutes faster.

    Great run Dan! You met your stated goal and kicked butt despite all that
    hiking.

    Quoted message said:

    Splits:
    Mile 1 9:22 (425' climb)
    Mile 2 9:04 (350' climb)
    Mile 3-4 14:55 (250' up and down)
    Mile 5 7:24 (200' down and up)
    Mile 6 5:48 (400' down)
    .21 (or .33?) 7:05 pace (30' down and up)

    5:48 is being careful on that bad foot? Hell wish I had your speed on
    downhills (or in general). That's your advantage as I think you've stated it
    many times - pulling back people on downs. Dan, the Salvoldelli (falcon) of
    trail racing 😉

    -Tony

    Quoted message said:

    Stats by memory: 14/~300 2nd in 55+ ( but faster than any 45-49!). Got
    a very nice site-engraved medal, and a hot breakfast. A buddy said that
    for swag, the race to do is the Pride 5 or 10k in West Hollywood, less
    than 200 runners and lots of prizes. Who knows, maybe I'll run into TBR
    there?

    -- Dan

    * Any similarity to the 4kg that Steve Common is cursed with is purely
    coincidental.

  11. "Tony S." <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Great run Dan! You met your stated goal and kicked butt despite all that
    hiking.

    Guess I was using some of the Lance Smith mind-over-matter thought exercises
    ;-)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Splits:
    Mile 1 9:22 (425' climb)
    Mile 2 9:04 (350' climb)
    Mile 3-4 14:55 (250' up and down)
    Mile 5 7:24 (200' down and up)
    Mile 6 5:48 (400' down)
    .21 (or .33?) 7:05 pace (30' down and up)

    Quoted message said:

    5:48 is being careful on that bad foot? Hell wish I had your speed on
    downhills (or in general). That's your advantage as I think you've stated
    it many times - pulling back people on downs. Dan, the Salvoldelli
    (falcon) of trail racing 😉

    Thanks. Actually, when I started racing, I used to push the uphills and get
    passed on the downs. At some point I read Lydiard and did his downhill
    speed workouts (on soft surface), and that got me working on downhill
    technique.

    The spooky thing is that I ran this race 1:30 per mile faster back in '85 at
    age 33 (38:10). I wonder if I ran 4:18 for the downhill mile? :-)

    Here's a pic from that year of me putting it to the field at the start.
    When I want to run fast I exhale and relax, hence the closed eyes :-) I
    was a bit overweight, but I had a good day anyway. The guy in the sky-blue
    t-shirt behind me is brother Greg, who was a college XC runner at the time.

    http://i19.tinypic.com/62ekpxg.jpg

  12. Nice report and good race Dan.

    Glad to hear that the foot came through with no problems.

    Your uphill "easier"/ downhill "flat-out" is the way I try
    and run also...

    Anthony.

  13. D Stumpus said:

    "Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    On hill races, my strategy is to run comfortably hard on the ups and
    hurt the downs.

    Quoted message said:

    Interesting. Is this maintaining effort, or is your HR actually higher on
    the downs?

    Noticably higher effort. Didn't have my monitor, but I'm pretty sure it was
    higher on downs. I push into the pain zone (above 165hr for me) if the
    terrain allows it. Rocks, roots, etc slow me down 'cause I'm a wuss about
    falling or reinjuring myself.

    I'm always telling my acquaintances that you'll get a better time if you
    back off a bit on the big hills, but I guess it's something most people have
    to learn themselves (or never learn, as the case may be).

    When I read this at first I thought "no way, he's got that
    backwards". And your method/advice does run counter to an important
    rule of thumb for cycling -- you always press the uphills as hard as
    you can, for two reasons: (1) you're going much slower, and spending
    much more time on the ups, so an N% increase in speed gains more net
    time, and (2) at higher speeds, it costs more energy to speed up.

    Is there anyone to whom you would *not* give this advice? I feel like
    I'm stronger uphill than down (decent power/weight going up, and kind
    of a spaz going down), and I'm quite sure my HR is higher on the ups.

    BTW, nice job on the race. Hope the foot continues to behave.

  14. "D Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Tony S." <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    Great run Dan! You met your stated goal and kicked butt despite all that
    hiking.

    Guess I was using some of the Lance Smith mind-over-matter thought
    exercises ;-)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Splits:
    Mile 1 9:22 (425' climb)
    Mile 2 9:04 (350' climb)
    Mile 3-4 14:55 (250' up and down)
    Mile 5 7:24 (200' down and up)
    Mile 6 5:48 (400' down)
    .21 (or .33?) 7:05 pace (30' down and up)

    Quoted message said:

    5:48 is being careful on that bad foot? Hell wish I had your speed on
    downhills (or in general). That's your advantage as I think you've stated
    it many times - pulling back people on downs. Dan, the Salvoldelli
    (falcon) of trail racing 😉

    Thanks. Actually, when I started racing, I used to push the uphills and
    get passed on the downs. At some point I read Lydiard and did his
    downhill speed workouts (on soft surface), and that got me working on
    downhill technique.

    The spooky thing is that I ran this race 1:30 per mile faster back in '85
    at age 33 (38:10). I wonder if I ran 4:18 for the downhill mile? :-)

    Here's a pic from that year of me putting it to the field at the start.
    When I want to run fast I exhale and relax, hence the closed eyes :-) I
    was a bit overweight, but I had a good day anyway. The guy in the
    sky-blue t-shirt behind me is brother Greg, who was a college XC runner at
    the time.

    http://i19.tinypic.com/62ekpxg.jpg

    Motley looking bunch - are you sure that's not from the 1970's! (yea I saw
    the caption) Eyes closed and looking like a tough customer Dan. Yea 5:48
    isn't that fast, just on a trail it seems to be quick.

    On uphills, weight seems to be the major factor. I figure I can improve best
    by trying to increase my speed on flats, always my nemesis, and that might
    also translate into faster on downs, though I will try to work on that too
    specifically.

    -Tony

  15. Tom B. said:
    D Stumpus said:

    "Phil M." <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    > On hill races, my strategy is to run comfortably hard on the ups and
    > hurt the downs.

    Quoted message said:

    Interesting. Is this maintaining effort, or is your HR actually higher
    on the downs?

    Noticably higher effort. Didn't have my monitor, but I'm pretty sure it
    was
    higher on downs. I push into the pain zone (above 165hr for me) if the
    terrain allows it. Rocks, roots, etc slow me down 'cause I'm a wuss
    about falling or reinjuring myself.

    I'm always telling my acquaintances that you'll get a better time if you
    back off a bit on the big hills, but I guess it's something most people
    have to learn themselves (or never learn, as the case may be).

    When I read this at first I thought "no way, he's got that
    backwards". And your method/advice does run counter to an important
    rule of thumb for cycling -- you always press the uphills as hard as
    you can, for two reasons: (1) you're going much slower, and spending
    much more time on the ups, so an N% increase in speed gains more net
    time, and (2) at higher speeds, it costs more energy to speed up.

    It's a common rule to "survive" up and all out down on a XC (at least where
    I am)...... It works for me

    martin, denmark

    Quoted message said:

    Is there anyone to whom you would *not* give this advice? I feel like
    I'm stronger uphill than down (decent power/weight going up, and kind
    of a spaz going down), and I'm quite sure my HR is higher on the ups.

    BTW, nice job on the race. Hope the foot continues to behave.

  16. "Tom B." <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    When I read this at first I thought "no way, he's got that
    backwards". And your method/advice does run counter to an important
    rule of thumb for cycling -- you always press the uphills as hard as
    you can, for two reasons: (1) you're going much slower, and spending
    much more time on the ups, so an N% increase in speed gains more net
    time, and (2) at higher speeds, it costs more energy to speed up.

    I'm not a cyclist, but that sounds reasonable. In running, though, the main
    resistance is gravity, on all terrains, as opposed to wind resistance. You
    throw your body weight up even running downhill (you just get a longer
    stride out of it).

    The name of the game is glycogen conservation. I think aerobic respiration
    produces 22 ATP molecules per glycogen molecule (the energy coin of the
    realm), and the lactic acid anerobic system produces only 2 ATP per glycogen
    molecule. Go too fast and you use up half a tank in the first couple of
    miles.

    This threshold is fairly sensitive -- note that for faster runners like
    yourself, the difference in pace between 5k and 10k pace is only 15-20
    secs/mile. This is because of the exponential increase in glycogen
    consumption as you get into the lactic-acid zone. Try going out 20 sec/mile
    too fast in a 10k sometime and see what happens ;-). You can do the same
    thing by charging the early hills too hard.

    Quoted message said:

    Is there anyone to whom you would *not* give this advice? I feel like
    I'm stronger uphill than down (decent power/weight going up, and kind
    of a spaz going down), and I'm quite sure my HR is higher on the ups.

    That's great that you're strong on ups. It just means that your sub-pain
    pace is faster than other's hurting pace :-) At this race a couple of guys
    asked me how much I was hurting on the climbs and they were surprised that I
    wasn't (I guess they assumed I was in agony because I breathe rapidly). I
    suppose if you are a really bad downhill runner you might change the
    strategy mix a bit, but I doubt that you are *horrible* at downs.

    You can test this for yourself by trying different strategies on some of
    your regular hill courses when you're in a hard-charging mood -- I find that
    just a few % slower on the climbs enables me to run much faster on the downs
    and a better overall time. It's also a nice psychological effect to be able
    to surge at the crest of the hill when your competition is recovering.

    I think you'll find that it helps.

    Quoted message said:

    BTW, nice job on the race. Hope the foot continues to behave.

    Thanks. I'm going to take it easy this week, then ease back into my normal
    rhythm.

  17. "Tony S." <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Here's a pic from that year of me putting it to the field at the start.
    When I want to run fast I exhale and relax, hence the closed eyes :-) I
    was a bit overweight, but I had a good day anyway. The guy in the
    sky-blue t-shirt behind me is brother Greg, who was a college XC runner
    at the time.

    http://i19.tinypic.com/62ekpxg.jpg

    Motley looking bunch - are you sure that's not from the 1970's! (yea I saw
    the caption) Eyes closed and looking like a tough customer Dan. Yea 5:48
    isn't that fast, just on a trail it seems to be quick.

    Yeah, I was no fasion plate. At that time I could run hard enough to
    overheat even on cool mornings if it was muggy, so had to go native. No
    such problems now :-).

    Quoted message said:

    On uphills, weight seems to be the major factor. I figure I can improve
    best by trying to increase my speed on flats, always my nemesis, and that
    might also translate into faster on downs, though I will try to work on
    that too specifically.

    I think you'll find that being lighter helps on ups, flats and downs. It
    may help a lot on downhills in terms of injury susceptibility because of the
    force multiplier effect.

    Re training, I'm in favor of balance -- speed(ier) work on flats, ups, and
    downs.
    Limited by injury tendencies, of course. Do you wear orthotics? I had all
    kinds of problems until I got the correct prescription, cause my original
    equipment feet are not suited for running.

  18. "D Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Congrats, great effort.

    | On hill races, my strategy is to run comfortably hard on the ups and hurt
    | the downs.
    I follow the similar strategy. although I live in the hills and train some
    around here.
    I am surprised by how many people go fast up hill only to be left behind
    later on.

  19. I2Run said:


    "D Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Congrats, great effort.

    | On hill races, my strategy is to run comfortably hard on the ups and hurt
    | the downs.
    I follow the similar strategy. although I live in the hills and train some
    around here.
    I am surprised by how many people go fast up hill only to be left behind
    later on.

    How hard would that be in terms of HR? I found that for a 10% decline I
    can go down with a HR around 70-75% of max, with a speed at least 50%
    faster than my uphill speed, where I'd reach 75-85% of max hr.

    The more the grade increases beyond 10%, the more I seem to be braking,
    though.

    --
    Christos Dimitrakakis
    Homepage: http://www.idiap.ch/~dimitrak/main.html
    Music: http://olethros.dmusic.com

  20. Tony said:

    Motley looking bunch - are you sure that's not from the 1970's!

    Pacific Time Zone, Tony. Ten years behind Eastern.

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