Topanga 10k report

D Stumpus said:

This was done on a wing and a prayer.

Hmmm, using wings in running races.😉

....

Quoted message said:

On hill races, my strategy is to run comfortably hard on the ups and hurt
the downs. Mile 1 came up. Last year I hit it in about 10:00. This time I
got a 9:22, and it felt easier. A good sign. I passed about 10 runners
through 2.5 miles, all on the uphills, which was surprising since I was
holding back a bit. On every little down I really picked up the effort.

Free speed on the downs!
....

Quoted message said:

Anyway, I was a bit disappointed to miss 47 minutes, and had to settle for
48:07ish. But hey, that's 3 minutes faster than last year. I'm hopeful
that if I lose that 8 lbs * and get some solid training in (and stay
healthy!) that I can run a couple of minutes faster.

Good job, Dan! Sounds like your strategy worked well.

Dot

--
"The goal is training and adaptation, not destruction and injury."
- John Hardy
http://www.mountainrunning.coolrunning.com.au/misc/training.shtml

Dot said:

Hmmm, using wings in running races.

I think I may be a five with a four wing (http://
www.enneagraminstitute.com/TypeFive.asp) but haven't figured out how
to use it in racing.

"Christos Dimitrakakis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
| How hard would that be in terms of HR? I found that for a 10% decline I
| can go down with a HR around 70-75% of max, with a speed at least 50%
| faster than my uphill speed, where I'd reach 75-85% of max hr.
|
| The more the grade increases beyond 10%, the more I seem to be braking,
| though.

Dan is the expert in this area, but here is what I do with my limited
experience:
I do HRM only in training runs and it depends on the distance, elevation,
and
target HR for the day. I try to maintain same HR for both up hills and down
when
the hills are more gradual (typically 1500' over 4.5 miles) and intensity
level
is between 65-70%, otherwise do what is more efficient, injury free and
safe.

You are correct, it becomes difficult to maintain the same HR on steep down
hills
and also at higher target intensities (even on gradual down hills). I that
case, forget
about maintaining the higher HR, just run down easily without braking.

"Christos Dimitrakakis" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

How hard would that be in terms of HR? I found that for a 10% decline I
can go down with a HR around 70-75% of max, with a speed at least 50%
faster than my uphill speed, where I'd reach 75-85% of max hr.

Yes the ~50% faster rule applies to me too with grades from 6-10%. In this
race, the 8% grade first and last miles were 9:22 and 5:48. That just
happens to be 50.1% faster on the downhill :-)

It takes a few weeks of downhill speed (always on soft surfaces!) for me to
be able to get the heartrate to match the uphill. When not in downhill
shape, my legs get beat up even at a 140 pulse.

Quoted message said:

The more the grade increases beyond 10%, the more I seem to be braking,
though.

On dirt, if you can learn to land on the forefoot and slide a bit with each
step, you get a double bonus: longer stride, and less stress on the quads.
A bit like scree-ing.

Actually it's a triple play: I find that the ankle is stronger and much
less prone to rolling on a mis-step with a forefoot landing.

Charlie Pendejo said:

Dan said:

Tom said:

When I read this at first I thought "no way, he's got that
backwards". And your method/advice does run counter to an important
rule of thumb for cycling -- you always press the uphills as hard as
you can, for two reasons: (1) you're going much slower, and spending
much more time on the ups, so an N% increase in speed gains more net
time, and (2) at higher speeds, it costs more energy to speed up.

This threshold is fairly sensitive [...] exponential increase in
glycogen consumption as you get into the lactic-acid zone.

I have some minor differences of opinion with Dan, but your post is right
on the money, IMO.

My own experience is that (much like speed walking) it's hard to get the
same heart rate on a really steep down that you can on an up. So in terms
of oxygen debt, maybe it makes sense to push the downs pretty hard. It
also makes sense to accept that you will not quite run the race by even
effort in terms of % HR max, and prepare with that in mind.

It's important to get to the top of the hill in reasonable condition, so you're
not stumbling like a drunk on the downs. Not being fatigued is the main cause
of being good at downhills. I don't agree with "coasting" on the ups, but they
need to be kept under control so you can maintain some intensity on the downs.

I found the Deek quarters a really good workout for cross races -- because the
idea is to maintain a strict discipline on the reps, and not go faster or
slower than the prescribed pace, but push the recoveries as hard as possible.
So even though the reps are higher intensity, in some sense, the recoveries
require more mental effort.

The body has a pretty good tolerance for short term variation in pace -- it's
not unusual for elites to surge to 5k pace in a 10k race. If perfectly even
pacing was that critical, everyone would just ignore the surges. Problem is --
a steep incline makes a huge impact on oxygen demands, it can easily push you
well over about a 1 mile effort, which is disasterous in a 5k race. I don't
think it's so much that the margins are thin as it is that the hills provide
an avenue for going way into oxygen dept.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

"Elflord" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Charlie Pendejo said:

It's important to get to the top of the hill in reasonable condition,
so you're

not stumbling like a drunk on the downs. Not being fatigued is the
main cause
of being good at downhills. I don't agree with "coasting" on the ups,
but they
need to be kept under control so you can maintain some intensity on
the downs.

True. You should be able to get up AND over the hill without needing to
pause for any length of time to catch your breath. When doing hill
repeats they should take you up and over so you can get an idea on what
is an appropriate pace. If you stop at the top you don't get to sense
the continuation thereafter.

We need to budget our glycogen and going too fast up the hill will use a
disproportional amount of glycogen. One of the reasons most mortals in
an ultra hike the ups is pure conservation. Nothing worse then running
on E and still having 10 or miles to go.

The only time I attack a hill in an ultra is when I have 10 or less
miles to go and I still feel good. I have done the reverse and had an
awfully painful( like a pair of bears on your back) finish.

-Doug

"Tony S." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:Azp6i.380$106.56@trndny02...

Quoted message said:

"D Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Great run Dan! You met your stated goal and kicked butt despite all
that hiking.

Despite the hiking? Maybe the real answer is do a bit more hiking early
and really have a strong finish. I know, it means you let someone out
of your sight but........ 😉

Good race chubby..... 🙂

-Doug

D Stumpus said:

This was done on a wing and a prayer. I messed up my navicular (probably a
stress fracture) a in mid March and have been "jogging" and hiking a lot
since then. A lot of very slow running, hiking, and days off. I've got
tan lines from my ankle support. Lately I've been able to do some medium
effort on uphills, so that's something.

This was my first hard run in a couple of months. My plan was if my foot
hurt at all, I'd jog/walk it in. This was the first run in awhile without
my ankle support. ("Heealll! Throw those crutches away!)

[]

Quoted message said:

Anyway, I was a bit disappointed to miss 47 minutes, and had to settle for
48:07ish. But hey, that's 3 minutes faster than last year. I'm hopeful
that if I lose that 8 lbs * and get some solid training in (and stay
healthy!) that I can run a couple of minutes faster.

Splits:
Mile 1 9:22 (425' climb)
Mile 2 9:04 (350' climb)
Mile 3-4 14:55 (250' up and down)
Mile 5 7:24 (200' down and up)
Mile 6 5:48 (400' down)
.21 (or .33?) 7:05 pace (30' down and up)

Stats by memory: 14/~300 2nd in 55+ ( but faster than any 45-49!). Got a
very nice site-engraved medal, and a hot breakfast. A buddy said that for
swag, the race to do is the Pride 5 or 10k in West Hollywood, less than 200
runners and lots of prizes. Who knows, maybe I'll run into TBR there?

-- Dan

* Any similarity to the 4kg that Steve Common is cursed with is purely
coincidental.

Wow for negative splits this was surprising. I didn't know you could
let ourself run that slow!

Congratulations on the PR and good health to you!

ED