UTTER BS

Bill C said:

What complete and utter rubbish. If they had any balls, or any sign of
a union right now they'd be telling the UCI "You just cancelled the
Tour.".
The system is questionable at best, it's at least as invasive, and
easily more predjudicial than what any other sport is subjected too.
I would say that I can't believe that there are riders sitting there
cheering this on, but given the percentage of the population that
worked for, or provided reports to the Stasi then it makes sense.
The obvious next step is to rehire/coerce most of those Stasi and
others around Europe to take up monitoring and reporting on evry
aspect of the riders lives. It would be totally justified, and I'm
sure they could find rider's to support it in public. Even if they had
to use more threats to do it.
Bill C

dumbass,

you are a jock-sniffer who will never hold riders accountable.

what about the rights of the ASO ? who will pay them back for the
sponsorships they lose because of doping scandals in the sport ?

what about all the domestiques and support personnel on a team like
phonak that folded because the six-digit salary stars were getting
popped left and right ?

looking at the numbers of riders involved in puerto it's obvious that
the risk/reward of doping is still so favorable that many riders will
risk getting caught to move a few spots up the totem pole.

Bill C said:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/jun07/jun19news3
Quoted::
UCI demands ProTour riders' signatures on anti-doping agreement for
Tour participation
By Susan Westemeyer

UCI President Pat McQuaid speaks
Photo ©: AFP
The UCI has introduced a new anti-doping charter, it announced today
in Geneva. Under it, all 600 ProTour riders must sign a statement
before the Tour de France in which they agree to pay a year's salary
if they are found to have used illegal doping products, in addition to
the usual suspension they would face.

The announcement was made after the International Cycling Union (UCI)
meeting, in Geneva, with the ProTour team managers and team doctors.
UCI President Pat McQuaid said that any rider who refused to sign
would not be allowed to ride in the three-week French race.

T-Mobile's Mark Cavendish and Française Des Jeux's Sandy Casar were on
hand at the meeting to be the first to sign their statements. "It's
cool to be clean," said the British rider on t-mobile-team.com.
<more there>

What complete and utter rubbish. If they had any balls, or any sign of
a union right now they'd be telling the UCI "You just cancelled the
Tour.".
The system is questionable at best, it's at least as invasive, and
easily more predjudicial than what any other sport is subjected too.
I would say that I can't believe that there are riders sitting there
cheering this on, but given the percentage of the population that
worked for, or provided reports to the Stasi then it makes sense.
The obvious next step is to rehire/coerce most of those Stasi and
others around Europe to take up monitoring and reporting on evry
aspect of the riders lives. It would be totally justified, and I'm
sure they could find rider's to support it in public. Even if they had
to use more threats to do it.
Bill C

The real problem here is that most of the riders are relatively young
and not particularly devious men. They're likely not to see this as
any problem.

Hopefully their riders association will scream bloody murder about
this and the riders will simply strike until the UCI sticks this
suggestion where the sun doesn't shine.

Consider: with the actions of the "approved" labs who in their right
mind would believe for one second that foul play has been committed by
those in these labs? A rider on the wrong side of someone in political
power could very well see his life savings stolen in a wink.

Bill C said:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/jun07/jun19news3
Quoted::
UCI demands ProTour riders' signatures on anti-doping agreement for
Tour participation
By Susan Westemeyer

UCI President Pat McQuaid speaks
Photo ©: AFP
The UCI has introduced a new anti-doping charter, it announced today
in Geneva. Under it, all 600 ProTour riders must sign a statement
before the Tour de France in which they agree to pay a year's salary
if they are found to have used illegal doping products, in addition to
the usual suspension they would face.

The announcement was made after the International Cycling Union (UCI)
meeting, in Geneva, with the ProTour team managers and team doctors.
UCI President Pat McQuaid said that any rider who refused to sign
would not be allowed to ride in the three-week French race.

T-Mobile's Mark Cavendish and Française Des Jeux's Sandy Casar were on
hand at the meeting to be the first to sign their statements. "It's
cool to be clean," said the British rider on t-mobile-team.com.
<more there>

What complete and utter rubbish. If they had any balls, or any sign of
a union right now they'd be telling the UCI "You just cancelled the
Tour.".
The system is questionable at best, it's at least as invasive, and
easily more predjudicial than what any other sport is subjected too.
I would say that I can't believe that there are riders sitting there
cheering this on, but given the percentage of the population that
worked for, or provided reports to the Stasi then it makes sense.
The obvious next step is to rehire/coerce most of those Stasi and
others around Europe to take up monitoring and reporting on evry
aspect of the riders lives. It would be totally justified, and I'm
sure they could find rider's to support it in public. Even if they had
to use more threats to do it.
Bill C

At least they're trying to improve the sport. Baseball and Football
and Basketball and Hockey and Boxing, etc should do the same thing.And
of course the clean riders are cheering this on. If the dopers don't
sign we would have a race full of clean riders. Second time offenders
should pay two years' earnings.
What I don't understand is that in the beginning of the article the
UCI demands the signatures, but at the end of the article it says that
the riders are not forced to sign.
Andre

Dans le message de
news:[email hidden],
Bill C <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/jun07/jun19news3
Quoted::
UCI demands ProTour riders' signatures on anti-doping agreement for
Tour participation
By Susan Westemeyer

UCI President Pat McQuaid speaks
Photo ©: AFP
The UCI has introduced a new anti-doping charter, it announced today
in Geneva. Under it, all 600 ProTour riders must sign a statement
before the Tour de France in which they agree to pay a year's salary
if they are found to have used illegal doping products, in addition to
the usual suspension they would face.

The announcement was made after the International Cycling Union (UCI)
meeting, in Geneva, with the ProTour team managers and team doctors.
UCI President Pat McQuaid said that any rider who refused to sign
would not be allowed to ride in the three-week French race.

T-Mobile's Mark Cavendish and Française Des Jeux's Sandy Casar were on
hand at the meeting to be the first to sign their statements. "It's
cool to be clean," said the British rider on t-mobile-team.com.
<more there>

What complete and utter rubbish. If they had any balls, or any sign of
a union right now they'd be telling the UCI "You just cancelled the
Tour.".
The system is questionable at best, it's at least as invasive, and
easily more predjudicial than what any other sport is subjected too.
I would say that I can't believe that there are riders sitting there
cheering this on, but given the percentage of the population that
worked for, or provided reports to the Stasi then it makes sense.
The obvious next step is to rehire/coerce most of those Stasi and
others around Europe to take up monitoring and reporting on evry
aspect of the riders lives. It would be totally justified, and I'm
sure they could find rider's to support it in public. Even if they had
to use more threats to do it.
Bill C

Of course, you're right.
--
Sandy

"Le Vin est la plus saine et la plus hygiénique des boissons."
- Louis Pasteur

Andre said:

At least they're trying to improve the sport

No, they're not They're trying to play lackey running dog for the
sponsors.

Quoted message said:

Baseball and Football
and Basketball and Hockey and Boxing, etc should do the same thing.

No, but some of those are stonger sports that will resist.

Quoted message said:

And
of course the clean riders are cheering this on. If the dopers don't
sign we would have a race full of clean riders.

Wrong. You will never know if the guy next to you is clean if you are
a rider; therefore the temptation to dope is still there, just a lot
more dangerous

Also dangerous for anyone who rubs an "authority figure" the wrong way

Quoted message said:

Second  time offenders
should pay two years' earnings.

What if their test is wrong?

Quoted message said:

What I don't understand is that in the beginning of the article the
UCI demands the signatures, but at the end of the article it says that
the riders are not forced to sign.

That's the part where the designers are pulling their panties up nice
and high

Hey, when they come for you, which of your rights are you willing to
give up?

--D-y

On Jun 19, 10:11 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

what about the rights of the ASO ? who will pay them back for the
sponsorships they lose because of doping scandals in the sport ?

what about all the domestiques and support personnel on a team like
phonak that folded because the six-digit salary stars were getting
popped left and right ?

looking at the numbers of riders involved in puerto it's obvious that
the risk/reward of doping is still so favorable that many riders will
risk getting caught to move a few spots up the totem pole.

Dumbass,

You think there's no pressure on the domestiques to dope? As it is,
all the pressure is being applied to the riders, and they're the wrong
targets. If you truly wanted to have an effect, re-target at the team.

Bill C said:

What complete and utter rubbish. If they had any balls, or any sign of
a union right now they'd be telling the UCI "You just cancelled the
Tour.".

You sure got that right

Davey Crockett - No 4Q to Reply

--
In Communist countries, all dissent was called fascism.
In Fascist Italy, all dissent was labelled Communist.
In a Politically Correct world, all dissent is called racist or Hate.

Quoted message said:

On Jun 19, 10:11 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

what about the rights of the ASO ? who will pay them back for the
sponsorships they lose because of doping scandals in the sport ?

Quoted message said:

what about all the domestiques and support personnel on a team like
phonak that folded because the six-digit salary stars were getting
popped left and right ?

Quoted message said:

looking at the numbers of riders involved in puerto it's obvious that
the risk/reward of doping is still so favorable that many riders will
risk getting caught to move a few spots up the totem pole.

Dumbass,

You think there's no pressure on the domestiques to dope?

dumbass,

master fatties also have pressure to dope, but the wiggest winners
from doping are the big salary stars.

Quoted message said:

As it is,
all the pressure is being applied to the riders, and they're the wrong
targets. If you truly wanted to have an effect, re-target at the team.

maybe both, but riders dope for their own self interest.

Quoted post said:

Andre said:

At least they're trying to improve the sport

No, they're not They're trying to play lackey running dog for the
sponsors.

Quoted message said:

Baseball and Football
and Basketball and Hockey and Boxing, etc should do the same thing.

No, but some of those are stonger sports that will resist.

Quoted message said:

And
of course the clean riders are cheering this on. If the dopers don't
sign we would have a race full of clean riders.

Wrong. You will never know if the guy next to you is clean if you are
a rider; therefore the temptation to dope is still there, just a lot
more dangerous

Also dangerous for anyone who rubs an "authority figure" the wrong way

Quoted message said:

Second ?time offenders
should pay two years' earnings.

What if their test is wrong?

Quoted message said:

What I don't understand is that in the beginning of the article the
UCI demands the signatures, but at the end of the article it says that
the riders are not forced to sign.

That's the part where the designers are pulling their panties up nice
and high

Hey, when they come for you, which of your rights are you willing to
give up?

--D-y

1.Stronger sports? Will resist what? Not to be tested?
2.It is obvious they are trying to clean up the sport.
3.If the temptation to dope is more dangerous then that is an
improvement.
4.Authority figures being rubbed the wrong way...that's a little
paranoia no?
5.If the test is wrong their earnings are returned of course.

On Jun 19, 11:03 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

maybe both, but riders dope for their own self interest.

Dumbass,

So if you wanted to change doping behavior, rather than have show
trials and splashy loyalty oaths, you have to alter the self-interest.

in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

what about the rights of the ASO ? who will pay them back for the
sponsorships they lose because of doping scandals in the sport ?

They aren't forced to run the Tour. They could always cancel it and run a
tiddly-winks tournament instead.

I am /not/ defending doping. But this is way over the top. The eventual
solution will have to be an amnesty, and as nothing else is going to work
we might as well have it now. In the meantime I'm completely in agreement
with those who are saying the riders need a good, strong, union.

Tour de France? What Tour de France?

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; ... exposing the violence incoherent in the system...

Andre said:

1.Stronger sports? Will resist what? Not to be tested?

Not to lose a year's salary on the basis of a "positive read" (see,
"Pound"😉 on a complicated test that needs to be "interpreted" (see
"Landis"😉.

Quoted message said:

2.It is obvious they are trying to clean up the sport.

Uh, maybe. It's the "sale" to the sponsors they care about.

Quoted message said:

3.If the temptation to dope is more dangerous then that is an
improvement.

No, not with the testing that exists today.

Quoted message said:

4.Authority figures being rubbed the wrong way...that's a little
paranoia no?

No. Pound v. Marion Jones, remember? "She'd better close her mouth or
we'll (I'll) take all her medals away". Remember? That was the Pound
response after Ms Jones rightly called a kangaroo court a kangaroo
court... Hey, Andre, the rest of your life depends on your A sample,
and we don't want to have to bother with a B sample-- that's OK with
you? Just sign this paper here, and pony up a year's wages. No
problem?

Not to mention the ongoing problems with DNA testing in criminal
cases. Wave the DNA flag-- people bow down, but the testing is not by
any means 100% reliable in the first place, aside from the "human
uses" of it or the lack of it, such as witholding exculpatory
evidence, slopply lab work (like with Landis) and downright lying on
the witness stand to convict someone "they know is guilty".

Quoted message said:

5.If the test is wrong their earnings are returned of course.

Oh, stop.
On the good ship Lollipop, and minus the 60 or 70% the lawyers will
take in the meantime, and after they've missed what-- a year, two
years? of earning opportunity, plus being blackballed in the new Holy
Roller sports reality?

Omerta was so much better, especially after the 'crit limit was set.
--D-y

On Jun 19, 4:11 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

dumbass,

you are a jock-sniffer who will never hold riders accountable.

what about the rights of the ASO ? who will pay them back for the
sponsorships they lose because of doping scandals in the sport ?

what about all the domestiques and support personnel on a team like
phonak that folded because the six-digit salary stars were getting
popped left and right ?

looking at the numbers of riders involved in puerto it's obvious that
the risk/reward of doping is still so favorable that many riders will
risk getting caught to move a few spots up the totem pole.

Hey Dumbass
I'm about as draconian and hardass as anyone you'd ever hate to meet
on crime and violations. The flip side of that is that the system has
to be open, reliable, fair, and provide real opportunities for the
accused to defend themselves, and appeal to an independent impartial
body with no dog in the fight.
The whole anti-doping system has more in common with racial
profiling, "driving while black", and other abuses than the "Blind
Justice" standard.
Yeah the riders agreed to it. My family agreed to have company
"helpers" go into the voting booth with them, kept dieing in mines
that were deathtraps, bought from the company store, and lived in
company housing because there weren't a [censored] of options and the
company was vindictive and brutal.
There's still a [censored] of similarities between what the coal miners
went through here in the US and what they are doing to the riders.
They both have a choice stand up for your rights, or be out of work
and treated like [censored], with very few other career options. Specialised
skill sets and nowhere else to go.
Justice for even the worst scum, and human dignity until you forfeit
it. Just being a bike racer doesn't mean you forfeit it.
Bill C

email hidden said:

Bill C said:

What complete and utter rubbish. If they had any balls, or any sign of
a union right now they'd be telling the UCI "You just cancelled the
Tour.".
The system is questionable at best, it's at least as invasive, and
easily more predjudicial than what any other sport is subjected too.
I would say that I can't believe that there are riders sitting there
cheering this on, but given the percentage of the population that
worked for, or provided reports to the Stasi then it makes sense.
The obvious next step is to rehire/coerce most of those Stasi and
others around Europe to take up monitoring and reporting on evry
aspect of the riders lives. It would be totally justified, and I'm
sure they could find rider's to support it in public. Even if they had
to use more threats to do it.
Bill C

dumbass,

you are a jock-sniffer who will never hold riders accountable.

what about the rights of the ASO ? who will pay them back for the
sponsorships they lose because of doping scandals in the sport ?

Then stop having doping scandals. That is the job of ASO and UCI and the
national organizations. Every sport has drugs. Every sport is full of jocks. No
other sport has these insane "scandals." So just stop it. Right now every
governing body in this sport needs to be figuring out how this has gone so
horribly wrong and how to fix it.

Quoted message said:

what about all the domestiques and support personnel on a team like
phonak that folded because the six-digit salary stars were getting
popped left and right ?

looking at the numbers of riders involved in puerto it's obvious that
the risk/reward of doping is still so favorable that many riders will
risk getting caught to move a few spots up the totem pole.

Noticed that, didya.

I don't think raising the penalty from "career ending" to "career ending, so sue
me" is going to make a bit of difference.

Ron

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

what about the rights of the ASO ? who will pay them back for the
sponsorships they lose because of doping scandals in the sport ?

They aren't forced to run the Tour. They could always cancel it and run a
tiddly-winks tournament instead.

I am /not/ defending doping. But this is way over the top. The eventual
solution will have to be an amnesty, and as nothing else is going to work
we might as well have it now. In the meantime I'm completely in agreement
with those who are saying the riders need a good, strong, union.

It occurs to me that one aspect of having a good strong union is it leaves no
question that the terms of employment including doping rules are actually
accepted by the riders. Under those circumstances then it would be morally wrong
to dope. Now it is only the terms of an employment contract in a sport where the
athletes have always gotten the wrong end of that stick.

Ron

Quoted post said:

Andre said:

1.Stronger sports? Will resist what? Not to be tested?

Not to lose a year's salary on the basis of a "positive read" (see,
"Pound"😉 on a complicated test that needs to be "interpreted" (see
"Landis"😉.

Quoted message said:

2.It is obvious they are trying to clean up the sport.

Uh, maybe. It's the "sale" to the sponsors they care about.

Quoted message said:

3.If the temptation to dope is more dangerous then that is an
improvement.

No, not with the testing that exists today.

Quoted message said:

4.Authority figures being rubbed the wrong way...that's a little
paranoia no?

No. Pound v. Marion Jones, remember? "She'd better close her mouth or
we'll (I'll) take all her medals away". Remember? That was the Pound
response after Ms Jones rightly called a kangaroo court a kangaroo
court... Hey, Andre, the rest of your life depends on your A sample,
and we don't want to have to bother with a B sample-- that's OK with
you? Just sign this paper here, and pony up a year's wages. No
problem?

Not to mention the ongoing problems with DNA testing in criminal
cases. Wave the DNA flag-- people bow down, but the testing is not by
any means 100% reliable in the first place, aside from the "human
uses" of it or the lack of it, such as witholding exculpatory
evidence, slopply lab work (like with Landis) and downright lying on
the witness stand to convict someone "they know is guilty".

Quoted message said:

5.If the test is wrong their earnings are returned of course.

Oh, stop.
On the good ship Lollipop, and minus the 60 or 70% the lawyers will
take in the meantime, and after they've missed what-- a year, two
years? of earning opportunity, plus being blackballed in the new Holy
Roller sports reality?

Omerta was so much better, especially after the 'crit limit was set.
--D-y

I think we disagree mostly on the exactitude of the testing. I believe
they are accurate more times than not. Yes, there can be human error,
but I don't think it happens as often as people think. I mean most of
these riders are getting the best lawyers money can buy. And I'm a
firm believer that all lawyers do is cloud up an issue and bring
technicalities in...anything to win a case. i.e Landis case (it's
almost a year now). Let's see if this idea of UCI leads to a better
solution. It is getting to the point where drastic measures are going
to have to be taken. Riders are finding new ways of doping as we
speak. I'm no expert on the logistics of the testing but they're still
taking b samples into consideration right? I'm just hoping that some
idea will work because I want to see a clean sport. And it happens to
be the sport that I love the most.

Andre

Andre said:

I think we disagree mostly on the exactitude of the testing. I believe
they are accurate more times than not.

That means 51% accurate, to round up.

Quoted message said:

Yes, there can be human error,
but I don't think it happens as often as people think.

I read something the other day. Approx. 60% of pre-employment drug
screen positives are false positives.

The "official" attitude seems to be, this swept-under-the-rug horror
is OK in the War on Drugs (read: People).

Quoted message said:

I mean most of
these riders are getting the best lawyers money can buy.

They have to. And what's good about a system where the lawyers come
out clean and wealthy after the fight?

Quoted message said:

And I'm a
firm believer that all lawyers do is cloud up an issue and bring
technicalities in...anything to win a case.

Damn. Which of your rights are you willing to give up when they come
for you?

Quoted message said:

i.e Landis case (it's almost a year now).

The A and B portions of that first positive, according to some, have
such widely different characteristics that they are proof of
contamination, if not baldfaced tampering. There's a technicality for
you.

You really need to read some background on this. Google "Houston DNA
crime lab". Incompetence, lying, the usual human mess. They had to let
some convicted "criminals" go. How do they get their time behind bars
back?

Quoted message said:

Let's see if this idea of UCI leads to a better
solution.

Doping will only be driven further underground.

Quoted message said:

It is getting to the point where drastic measures are going
to have to be taken.

"Amnesty". There's a golden halo around that word.

Quoted message said:

Riders are finding new ways of doping as we
speak.

That won't ever stop.

The biggest problem with EPO? People died because EPO was taken in
secret. Results of stupid bike races? Who cares?

Quoted message said:

I'm no expert on the logistics of the testing but they're still
taking b samples into consideration right? I'm just hoping that some
idea will work because I want to see a clean sport.

Life isn't clean.

It's an unsolveable problem. If we ever get to that general
realization, maybe some sort of "solution" can be arrived at.

IMHO. --D-y

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

what about the rights of the ASO ? who will pay them back for the
sponsorships they lose because of doping scandals in the sport ?

Then stop having doping scandals. That is the job of ASO and UCI and the
national organizations. Every sport has drugs. Every sport is full of
jocks. No
other sport has these insane "scandals." So just stop it. Right now every
governing body in this sport needs to be figuring out how this has gone so
horribly wrong and how to fix it.

Which sounds fine, until you consider that "doping scandals" work both ways.
The standard of proof the *should* be required to force a rider to pay one
year's salary is far greater than anything I've seen applied so far. "Beyond
a reasonable doubt" ought to be the rule here. That probably means not only
a positive doping test (which, so far, have been suspect), but corroborating
evidence elsewhere as well.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

what about the rights of the ASO ? who will pay them back for the
sponsorships they lose because of doping scandals in the sport ?

Then stop having doping scandals. That is the job of ASO and UCI and the
national organizations. Every sport has drugs. Every sport is full of
jocks. No
other sport has these insane "scandals." So just stop it. Right now every
governing body in this sport needs to be figuring out how this has gone
so
horribly wrong and how to fix it.

Which sounds fine, until you consider that "doping scandals" work both
ways. The standard of proof the *should* be required to force a rider to
pay one year's salary is far greater than anything I've seen applied so
far. "Beyond a reasonable doubt" ought to be the rule here. That probably
means not only a positive doping test (which, so far, have been suspect),
but corroborating evidence elsewhere as well.

Indeed Mike!