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Red light jumping.

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UK and Europe
Published
12 June 2007
Last activity
15 June 2007
Original author
Martin Dann
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57
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  1. Yesterday I went out for a ride for about one hour. On the
    ride back up from the city center I saw two cars drive
    through different red lights within a few minutes.

    The first driver then did a u-turn at the next set of
    lights which has a no U-turn sign.


    (It is very difficult to see the u-turn on film).

    The second driver crossed a red light on a pedestrian
    crossing whilst the person was still crossing.

    In both cases the lights were red long before the driver
    crossed the line.
    My only explanation is that the drivers were confused and
    frightened stuck in a cage, as opposed to usually being on
    a bike.

    Also I caught a taxi driver opening his door as I passed
    his taxi (me in the center of my lane).

  2. On 12/06/2007 18:54, Martin Dann said,

    Quoted message said:

    Yesterday I went out for a ride for about one hour. On the ride back up
    from the city center I saw two cars drive through different red lights
    within a few minutes.

    Seems fairly normal standards for driving in Bristol :-(

    The camera must be lying though, because it's only cyclists that jump
    red lights. That must be true because the likes of the Daily Wail keep
    telling us so.

    --
    Paul Boyd
    http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

  3. Martin Dann said:

    Yesterday I went out for a ride for about one hour. On the
    ride back up from the city center I saw two cars drive
    through different red lights within a few minutes.

    I had thought I had perceived a worsening of motorist's response to
    red lights. The two recent incidents (witnessed in teh space of one
    week) that seemed to confirm it for me were:

    1: Pelican. Traffic lights go red, pedestrian crosses. As soon as
    the pedestrian was past the front of the car stopped at the lights
    (ie, pedestrian is in the middle of the road, traffic lights still
    red, green man still on, crossing still beeping) the car drove through
    the lights and off. I caught the car up in the queue at the
    roundabout about a quarter mile further on and since the driver's
    window was open, stopped and told him that "a red light means stop".
    He just gaped at me - no sign of any thought processes at all. My
    fish look more sentient.

    2: Also pelican (but a different one). Queue of cars along the road,
    but the one at the pelican has stopped at the stop line, leaving the
    crossing clear (which is relatively unusual). Young teenager was
    waiting at the crossing, which switched just as I approached. So,
    traffic lights red, green man, beeping, and teen starts to cross.
    She'd done one step out from the kerb when the queue on the other side
    of the crossing started moving - so the car set off, forcing the girl
    to leap backwards out of the way. I didn't catch up with the driver
    in that case.

    And both of these are, of course, completely ignoring the systematic
    red light jumping done by motorists who seem to think braking when the
    lights change ahead might kill them.

    regards, Ian SMith
    --
    |\ /| no .sig
    |o o|
    |/ \|

  4. Martin Dann said:

    Yesterday I went out for a ride for about one hour. On the ride back up
    from the city center I saw two cars drive through different red lights
    within a few minutes.

    What's all this got to do with cycling?

    Quoted message said:

    The first driver then did a u-turn at the next set of lights which has a
    no U-turn sign.


    (It is very difficult to see the u-turn on film).

    Isn't there a green left filter arrow on in this one?

    --
    Matt B

  5. Matt B said:
    Martin Dann said:

    Yesterday I went out for a ride for about one hour. On the ride back
    up from the city center I saw two cars drive through different red
    lights within a few minutes.

    What's all this got to do with cycling?

    At least as much as most of your posts, Matt

    -dan

  6. Daniel Barlow said:
    Matt B said:
    Martin Dann said:

    Yesterday I went out for a ride for about one hour. On the ride back
    up from the city center I saw two cars drive through different red
    lights within a few minutes.

    What's all this got to do with cycling?

    At least as much as most of your posts, Matt

    That makes it excusable does it - am I your archetypal poster?

    Once a thread has already strayed OT it is fair enough to reply to
    developing arguments. However, although I rarely start posts, if I did
    start one that was so widely OT, I would flag it as OT.

    --
    Matt B

  7. Daniel Barlow said:
    Matt B said:
    Martin Dann said:

    Yesterday I went out for a ride for about one hour. On the ride back
    up from the city center I saw two cars drive through different red
    lights within a few minutes.

    What's all this got to do with cycling?

    The first sentence was
    "Yesterday I went out for a ride for about one hour."
    i.e. I was cycling when I filmed this.

    This is exactly the behaviour that elements of the press
    complain that we (cyclists) do all the time, and motorists
    never do.

    <fx:checks google groups.>

    The arrow on the traffic lights is a blue left turn only sign.
    When the light turns green, a green left turn filter comes
    on. (You can't turn left until this turns on).
    Also in the background you can see the pedestrian crossing
    has turned green allowing people to cross the road, hence
    no right turn.

    Now get back into my kill file.

    Quoted message said:

    At least as much as most of your posts, Matt

    I did not see TB had commented until you replied to him.

    Martin.

  8. Martin Dann said:
    Daniel Barlow said:
    Matt B said:

    Martin Dann wrote:
    > Yesterday I went out for a ride for about one hour. On the ride back
    > up from the city center I saw two cars drive through different red
    > lights within a few minutes.

    What's all this got to do with cycling?

    The first sentence was
    "Yesterday I went out for a ride for about one hour."
    i.e. I was cycling when I filmed this.

    Ah, so long as you are cycling when you do it, you could film, say, the
    changing of the guard at Buckingham Palace, and then justify a post
    about that. A bit of a weak excuse really.

    Quoted message said:

    This is exactly the behaviour that elements of the press complain that
    we (cyclists) do all the time, and motorists never do.

    Do cyclists do it or not? This is a cycling group. You should be
    encouraging cyclists to do it less, not justifying it because some
    other, non-cyclists, may also do it. This is the sort of denial and
    excuse that has brought cycling into disrepute in the press.

    Quoted message said:

    The arrow on the traffic lights is a blue left turn only sign.

    Fair enough.

    --
    Matt B

  9. "Matt B" <"matt.bourke"@nospam.london.com> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Isn't there a green left filter arrow on in this one?

    Yes but the leftmost arrow is a left turn only arrow, the green left filter
    arrow is just to the right of this and illuminates after the car goes
    through the lights.

  10. On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:10:16 +0100, Matt B

    matt.bourke'@nospam.london.com said:
    Martin Dann said:

    This is exactly the behaviour that elements of the press complain that
    we (cyclists) do all the time, and motorists never do.

    Do cyclists do it or not? This is a cycling group. You should be
    encouraging cyclists to do it less, not justifying it because some
    other, non-cyclists, may also do it. This is the sort of denial and
    excuse that has brought cycling into disrepute in the press.

    The press complain about cyclists' behaviour (real or imgined) and the
    danger (real or imagined) that cyclists represent, not their denial of
    these facts. If you have evidence to prove me wrong, I'd be happy to
    see it.

  11. Marc Brett said:

    On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 23:10:16 +0100, Matt B

    matt.bourke'@nospam.london.com said:
    Martin Dann said:

    This is exactly the behaviour that elements of the press complain that
    we (cyclists) do all the time, and motorists never do.


    Do cyclists do it or not? This is a cycling group. You should be
    encouraging cyclists to do it less, not justifying it because some
    other, non-cyclists, may also do it. This is the sort of denial and
    excuse that has brought cycling into disrepute in the press.

    The press complain about cyclists' behaviour (real or imgined) and the
    danger (real or imagined) that cyclists represent,

    Yes.

    Quoted message said:

    not their denial of
    these facts. If you have evidence to prove me wrong, I'd be happy to
    see it.

    Yes, "denial" was a bad choice of word. What I meant was, perhaps, more
    like "trivialisation". The tendency to brush aside any criticism, to
    even treat the anti-social actions as acceptable, because others do it
    too. Condemnation is what is required, then when it has been eradicated
    others can be condemned from the moral high ground. Hypocrisy
    guarantees a bad press.

    --
    Matt B

  12. Matt B <"matt.bourke"@nospam.london.com> wrote:

    big snips

    Pot kettle matt, pot kettle.

    roger

  13. Martin Dann said:

    Yesterday I went out for a ride for about one hour. On the
    ride back up from the city center I saw two cars drive
    through different red lights within a few minutes.

    Not sure what you're trying to prove here. On my commute this morning
    I'd guess I saw about 1 in 5 cyclists bothering to stop for red lights
    when the way ahead was clear. I played leap-frog with a pack of about
    8 who would get ahead of me at each red and then I would overtake them
    again on the next stretch. This happens every day, would you like to
    come and film it?

  14. On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 07:32:09 +0100, Matt B

    matt.bourke'@nospam.london.com said:

    Yes, "denial" was a bad choice of word. What I meant was, perhaps, more
    like "trivialisation". The tendency to brush aside any criticism, to
    even treat the anti-social actions as acceptable, because others do it
    too. Condemnation is what is required, then when it has been eradicated
    others can be condemned from the moral high ground.

    Eradication of anti-social behaviour is impossible. To ask that anybody
    wait for it to happen before they can criticise anyone else is to
    guarantee their silence forever. Is this really productive? Is this
    your aim?

    Quoted message said:

    Hypocrisy guarantees a bad press.

    Hardly. Motorised RLJs are happy to criticise non-motorised RLJs, and
    nobody in the press sees the irony.

  15. "Martin Dann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Yesterday I went out for a ride for about one hour. On the ride back up
    from the city center I saw two cars drive through different red lights
    within a few minutes.

    The first driver then did a u-turn at the next set of lights which has a
    no U-turn sign.


    (It is very difficult to see the u-turn on film).


    snip

    Don't want to defend him - but I couldn't tell from the video whether the
    green filter arrow was on for him to left turn as it was when you got there.

    If it was red then he was wrong - but it happens all the time here as does
    driving wrong way up one way streets etc.

    Police never around.

    Dave

  16. Marc Brett said:

    On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 07:32:09 +0100, Matt B

    matt.bourke'@nospam.london.com said:

    Yes, "denial" was a bad choice of word. What I meant was, perhaps, more
    like "trivialisation". The tendency to brush aside any criticism, to
    even treat the anti-social actions as acceptable, because others do it
    too. Condemnation is what is required, then when it has been eradicated
    others can be condemned from the moral high ground.

    Eradication of anti-social behaviour is impossible. To ask that anybody
    wait for it to happen before they can criticise anyone else is to
    guarantee their silence forever. Is this really productive? Is this
    your aim?

    No, I'd rather see a cycling group concentrate on cleaning up its own
    act. By all means discuss other aspects of road safety, such as the
    risks taken at traffic lights, but do not attempt to use the antics of
    non-cyclists to bat away criticism of anti-social cyclists.

    --
    Matt B

  17. POHB said:
    Martin Dann said:

    Yesterday I went out for a ride for about one hour. On the ride back up
    from the city center I saw two cars drive through different red lights
    within a few minutes.

    Not sure what you're trying to prove here. On my commute this morning I'd
    guess I saw about 1 in 5 cyclists bothering to stop for red lights when
    the way ahead was clear. I played leap-frog with a pack of about 8 who
    would get ahead of me at each red and then I would overtake them again on
    the next stretch. This happens every day, would you like to come and film
    it?

    Perhaps he should. People like you should be prosecuted if you jump red
    lights or contravene any other road traffic law. You might have thought
    the way was clear and hence safe to jump the lights but you may have
    missed an approaching vehicle or bike. If their lights were on red the
    chances are they would stop and you'd be safe but if theirs were on green
    they would have no expectation that you would choose that moment to
    venture out on your suicide mission. It was a gamble and you chose to
    gamble with others lives as well as your own. You should stick to rock
    climbing or whatever sport will satisfy your death wish and not endanger
    the lives of others.

    --
    ___ _______ ___ ___ ___ __ ____
    / _ \/ __/ _ | / _ \ / _ \/ _ |/ / / / /
    / // / _// __ |/ // / / ___/ __ / /_/ / /__
    /____/___/_/ |_/____/ /_/ /_/ |_\____/____/

  18. On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 09:42:46 +0100, Matt B

    matt.bourke'@nospam.london.com said:
    Marc Brett said:

    On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 07:32:09 +0100, Matt B

    matt.bourke'@nospam.london.com said:

    Yes, "denial" was a bad choice of word. What I meant was, perhaps, more
    like "trivialisation". The tendency to brush aside any criticism, to
    even treat the anti-social actions as acceptable, because others do it
    too. Condemnation is what is required, then when it has been eradicated
    others can be condemned from the moral high ground.

    Eradication of anti-social behaviour is impossible. To ask that anybody
    wait for it to happen before they can criticise anyone else is to
    guarantee their silence forever. Is this really productive? Is this
    your aim?

    No, I'd rather see a cycling group concentrate on cleaning up its own
    act. By all means discuss other aspects of road safety, such as the
    risks taken at traffic lights, but do not attempt to use the antics of
    non-cyclists to bat away criticism of anti-social cyclists.

    That is pandering to the wails of the "lycra louts are a menace"
    brigade. There's nothing wrong in pointing out the
    hysteria-to-actual_danger ratio to get things in perspective. Then the
    true picture would emerge that cyclists actually represent very little
    danger to anyone. Then, one might reasonably conclude, there is very
    little to clean up. Trivial matters deserve trivialisation.

    BTW, I saw /loads/ of RLJing cyclists this morning. They were /all/
    courteously letting peds go first or giving them a very wide berth, and
    watching carefully for cross traffic, before enjoying their tiny time
    slice of traffic-free road. Oddly enough, my face didn't turn red and I
    wasn't foaming at the mouth. Isn't that strange?

  19. In news:[email hidden],
    Dead Paul <[email hidden]> tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell us:

    Quoted message said:

    Perhaps he should. People like you should be prosecuted if you jump
    red lights or contravene any other road traffic law. You might have
    thought the way was clear and hence safe to jump the lights but you
    may have missed an approaching vehicle or bike. If their lights were
    on red the chances are they would stop and you'd be safe but if
    theirs were on green they would have no expectation that you would
    choose that moment to venture out on your suicide mission. It was a
    gamble and you chose to gamble with others lives as well as your own.
    You should stick to rock climbing or whatever sport will satisfy your
    death wish and not endanger the lives of others.

    I've re-read POHB's post half a dozen times now, and nowhere does s/he say
    s/he jumped a red light.

    Back in your box, laddie.

    --
    Dave Larrington
    <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk>
    And I begged, "Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured
    screams?" And the angel said unto me, "These are the cries of
    the carrots, the cries of the carrots! You see, Reverend Maynard,
    tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust."

  20. Dead Paul said the following on 13/06/2007 10:36:

    Quoted message said:

    Perhaps he should. People like you should be prosecuted if you jump red
    lights or contravene any other road traffic law.


    <snip>

    Try reading the post you're replying to properly, then an apology to
    POHB might be accepted.

    --
    Paul Boyd
    http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

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