Chain care and feeding

Quoted message said:

How do I know the chain is dirty enough to needs cleaning?
Is soaking in acetone a good way to accomplish that? For how long?

Dear S,

Browse around Sheldon Brown's site for lots of interesting articles:

http://sheldonbrown.com/articles.html

Sheldon mentions the shake-it-in-a-pop-bottle-with-Simple-Green method
of chain cleaning:

"I used to use a parts cleaning tank and a toothbrush to clean chains,
but Zaven Ghazarian, an excellent mechanic I used to work with came up
with a better system: drop the chain into a plastic Coke bottle with a
couple of ounces of un-diluted citrus degreaser, cap it, and shake
thoroughly. Fish the chain out with a spoke, rinse in water, and you
are all set!"

http://sheldonbrown.com/chains.html

It works as well as or better than other methods. The citrus degreaser
is anything like Simple Green, from places like Home Depot.

Continuing intensive research has shown that if you use a wide-mouth
Gatorade-style plastic bottle, you don't even have to fish the chain
out.

You can also wax chains, replace them without ever bothering to clean
them, pop them in ultrasonic cleaning tanks, spray them off at car
washes, use plastic-scrubber tanks that hang from the chainstay, or
brush them with melted butter and add salt and pepper to taste.

Acetone, gasoline, turpentine, and other solvents probably won't be
much better than something like Simple Green. Whatever you use, you
can probably let the crud settle in the plastic bottle and then pour
most of the solvent into another bottle for re-use.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How do I know the chain is dirty enough to needs cleaning?
Is soaking in acetone a good way to accomplish that? For how long?

Dear S,

[snip]

Quoted message said:

It works as well as or better than other methods. The citrus degreaser
is anything like Simple Green, from places like Home Depot.

[snip]

Citrus degreaser is a broad category, and highly variable in
effectiveness. On the one extreme there are bicycle specific products
such as Pedros brand orange peel which costs a FORTUNE (I just ordered
some @ > $45/gallon) and I put that in a spray bottle and dole it out
in at most a few squirts, stretching out the gallon for a couple of
years, but it just eats away grease from deraileurs/chainrings/chains,
followed by a hose spray, avoiding hubs/sealed bearings, making very
fast work of filth without the smelly paint thinner mess, although I
use diesel for chains because it's a LOT cheaper, and my orange peelz
would be gone in a hurry if I used it for chains too. On the other
extreme is home-depot/wall-mart style 409 orange power (with "natural
orange oil"😉 e.g. which, although it has a strong citrus smell, is not
any better with grease than dishwater detergent, which I use for all
non-greasy cleaning, like the rest of the bike. Surprisingly, even
Performance house-brand "degreaser" is about as bad for grease, and I
actually just tossed it in disgust. I'm not aware of any
home-depot/ace/wallmart non-petroleum cleaner that effectively
deep-cleans chains, or anything badly greased as well as pedros
orange, or paint thinner or diesel. Which is why I go REALLY easy on
the chain oiling now. I haven't tried simple green, and will now...

But my point is that not just "anything" works. Maybe some of it from
Home depot-style Chinese product places works, but I'd previously
assumed none of it really did much good, partly because it's all very
inexpensive, with every possible corner cut in quality.

Bill Westphal

Quoted message said:

How do I know the chain is dirty enough to needs cleaning?
Is soaking in acetone a good way to accomplish that? For how long?

Ok, here is my method.... keep a container of mineral spirits, pull
the chain, hang it from a piece of coat hanger, and soak it in the
mineral spirits while you floss the cogset and clean the pullys ect.
Pull the chain from the mineral spirits and wipe clean. I have a
naglene bottle full of motor oil, with a vacuum fitting glued into the
top. Drop the chain into the motor oil, put the cap on and pull a
vacuum on the bottle (I use a hand vacuum pump used for bleeding auto
brakes, about $20, also a small piece of coat hanger hooked to the
chain in the bottle makes it easy to remove). You will see the chain
fizz as the air comes out to the crevices, then release the vacuum,
and the oil is forced into the chain. Let it drip dry for a bit,
install, and wipe off the excess. Takes about 10-15min total and has
very little spray onto the wheels/bike when your done. Seems to do a
nice job of lubing the chain.

monkeyboy said:

Quoted message said:

How do I know the chain is dirty enough to needs cleaning?
Is soaking in acetone a good way to accomplish that? For how long?

Ok, here is my method.... keep a container of mineral spirits, pull
the chain, hang it from a piece of coat hanger, and soak it in the
mineral spirits while you floss the cogset and clean the pullys ect.
Pull the chain from the mineral spirits and wipe clean. I have a
naglene bottle full of motor oil, with a vacuum fitting glued into the
top. Drop the chain into the motor oil, put the cap on and pull a
vacuum on the bottle (I use a hand vacuum pump used for bleeding auto
brakes, about $20, also a small piece of coat hanger hooked to the
chain in the bottle makes it easy to remove). You will see the chain
fizz as the air comes out to the crevices, then release the vacuum,
and the oil is forced into the chain. Let it drip dry for a bit,
install, and wipe off the excess. Takes about 10-15min total and has
very little spray onto the wheels/bike when your done. Seems to do a
nice job of lubing the chain.

My method is similarly complex.

Wipe chain w/dry rag. Backpedal and dribble on White Lightning. Ride.

Bill "spoiled by dry climate" S.

may have said:

How do I know the chain is dirty enough to needs cleaning?

This is entirely a matter of opinion. If you think it's dirty enough,
clean it.

Quoted message said:

Is soaking in acetone a good way to accomplish that?

Acetone provides no advantage over mineral spirits, and has several
disadvantages.

Quoted message said:

For how long?

Acetone has a hazardously high flash point and some health issues;
it's much safer (and cheaper) to use mineral spirits.

A commonly-used method of chain cleaning involves putting a quart of
mineral spirits in a two-liter soda bottle, dropping the chain into
the bottle with a string tied to one end to facilitate removal later,
screwing on the cap, letting it soak for about an hour, agitating it
by shaking for a few minutes, and then pulling the chain out and
wiping off the excess spirits before oiling. The dirty spirits can be
re-used easily; let the dirt settle out for a couple of days, and pour
off the relatively clean spirits into a different two-liter bottle,
which is then capped securely, ready and waiting for the next chain to
need cleaning.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On Mon, 19 Feb 2007 14:22:28 -0700, [email hidden] may have

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How do I know the chain is dirty enough to needs cleaning?
Is soaking in acetone a good way to accomplish that? For how long?

Dear S,

Browse around Sheldon Brown's site for lots of interesting articles:

http://sheldonbrown.com/articles.html

Sheldon mentions the shake-it-in-a-pop-bottle-with-Simple-Green method
of chain cleaning:

"I used to use a parts cleaning tank and a toothbrush to clean chains,
but Zaven Ghazarian, an excellent mechanic I used to work with came up
with a better system: drop the chain into a plastic Coke bottle with a
couple of ounces of un-diluted citrus degreaser, cap it, and shake
thoroughly. Fish the chain out with a spoke, rinse in water, and you
are all set!"

http://sheldonbrown.com/chains.html

It works as well as or better than other methods. The citrus degreaser
is anything like Simple Green, from places like Home Depot.

Simple Green is *not* a citrus degreaser. IME, it's also a pretty
lousy degreaser by comparison to either the butyl of cirtus formulas,
both of which are readily available at the places you mention.

Quoted message said:

Continuing intensive research has shown that if you use a wide-mouth
Gatorade-style plastic bottle, you don't even have to fish the chain
out.

You can also wax chains, replace them without ever bothering to clean
them, pop them in ultrasonic cleaning tanks, spray them off at car
washes, use plastic-scrubber tanks that hang from the chainstay, or
brush them with melted butter and add salt and pepper to taste.

Not salt! No! Never salt! It causes the chain to have severe health
problems, even worse than what eating nothing but Big Macs and
super-sized fries at every meal will do to the rider. And whale
blubber works better than butter, but it's hard to get at the moment.

Quoted message said:

Acetone, gasoline, turpentine, and other solvents probably won't be
much better than something like Simple Green. Whatever you use, you
can probably let the crud settle in the plastic bottle and then pour
most of the solvent into another bottle for re-use.

Acetone has flammability issues; gasoline has significant health and
similar flammability problems. Turpentine is a lousy petroleum
lubricant stripper in my experience. SRAM specifically advises
against the use of cirus-based degreasers for certain of their chains,
for reasons that I have not been able to discover but which I feel are
probably because of the pH level of the cleaners; there may be a risk
of etching the side plates, producing a failure hazard due to the
creation of stress risers.

Mineral spirits can be had easily and cheaply, and provides just as
much cleaning capability with much less flammability and other hazards
than the solvents mentioned. Butyl-based cleaners and citrus cleaners
will both strip the lubricant and dirt quite well, with citrus perhaps
having a slight health and safety edge.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 02:33:13 -0700, Bill Westphal <[email hidden]>

may have said:

... I'm not aware of any
home-depot/ace/wallmart non-petroleum cleaner that effectively
deep-cleans chains, or anything badly greased as well as pedros
orange, or paint thinner or diesel. Which is why I go REALLY easy on
the chain oiling now. I haven't tried simple green, and will now...

IME, Simple Green is much worse than any of the Zep or ProCare or
Coastal degreasers. I wouldn't bother.

Quoted message said:

But my point is that not just "anything" works. Maybe some of it from
Home depot-style Chinese product places works, but I'd previously
assumed none of it really did much good, partly because it's all very
inexpensive, with every possible corner cut in quality.

Home Depot carries a couple of Zep degreasers which work well in my
experience. WalMart recently began carrying a degreaser in this area
which I previously obtained at Autozone; I think it's called "Power
Clean". I've used it to strip the accumulated crud from engine blocks
and cylinder heads during rebuilds, with good results. The only
difference between the name-brand "Formula 409" types of cleaner and
the cheaper generics, if you know what's in them, is the price...and
the fact that the name-brands are usually more diluted than the
generics.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 02:33:13 -0700, Bill Westphal <[email hidden]>

may have said:

... I'm not aware of any
home-depot/ace/wallmart non-petroleum cleaner that effectively
deep-cleans chains, or anything badly greased as well as pedros
orange, or paint thinner or diesel. Which is why I go REALLY easy on
the chain oiling now. I haven't tried simple green, and will now...

IME, Simple Green is much worse than any of the Zep or ProCare or
Coastal degreasers. I wouldn't bother.

wasn't there also the problem with simple green and stress corrosion
cracking?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But my point is that not just "anything" works. Maybe some of it from
Home depot-style Chinese product places works, but I'd previously
assumed none of it really did much good, partly because it's all very
inexpensive, with every possible corner cut in quality.

Home Depot carries a couple of Zep degreasers which work well in my
experience. WalMart recently began carrying a degreaser in this area
which I previously obtained at Autozone; I think it's called "Power
Clean". I've used it to strip the accumulated crud from engine blocks
and cylinder heads during rebuilds, with good results. The only
difference between the name-brand "Formula 409" types of cleaner and
the cheaper generics, if you know what's in them, is the price...and
the fact that the name-brands are usually more diluted than the
generics.

Quoth Carl Fogel:

Quoted message said:

Browse aroundSheldon Brown'ssite for lots of interesting articles:

http://sheldonbrown.com/articles.html

Sheldon mentions the shake-it-in-a-pop-bottle-with-Simple-Green method
of chain cleaning:

"I used to use a parts cleaning tank and a toothbrush to clean chains,
but Zaven Ghazarian, an excellent mechanic I used to work with came up
with a better system: drop the chain into a plastic Coke bottle with a
couple of ounces of un-diluted citrus degreaser, cap it, and shake
thoroughly. Fish the chain out with a spoke, rinse in water, and you
are all set!"

http://sheldonbrown.com/chains.html

Actually, that's not quite correct. I do recommend using a Coke
(never Pepsi!) bottle, but I do NOT recommend Simple Green.

There have been many credible reports of chains damaged by Simple
Green. I'm not a chemist, and don't understand the mechanism
involved, but there have been too many cases of this to ignore.

Sheldon "Citrus" Brown
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Honestly, I think we should just trust our president in every |
| decision that he makes and we should just support that. |
| -- Britney Spears, September 4, 2003 |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon Brown said:

Quoth Carl Fogel:

Quoted message said:

Browse aroundSheldon Brown'ssite for lots of interesting articles:

http://sheldonbrown.com/articles.html

Sheldon mentions the shake-it-in-a-pop-bottle-with-Simple-Green method
of chain cleaning:

"I used to use a parts cleaning tank and a toothbrush to clean chains,
but Zaven Ghazarian, an excellent mechanic I used to work with came up
with a better system: drop the chain into a plastic Coke bottle with a
couple of ounces of un-diluted citrus degreaser, cap it, and shake
thoroughly. Fish the chain out with a spoke, rinse in water, and you
are all set!"

http://sheldonbrown.com/chains.html

Actually, that's not quite correct. I do recommend using a Coke
(never Pepsi!) bottle, but I do NOT recommend Simple Green.

There have been many credible reports of chains damaged by Simple
Green. I'm not a chemist, and don't understand the mechanism
involved, but there have been too many cases of this to ignore.

Sheldon "Citrus" Brown
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Honestly, I think we should just trust our president in every |
| decision that he makes and we should just support that. |
| -- Britney Spears, September 4, 2003 |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Dear Sheldon,

Sorry for the mistake.

It could be that Simple Green and similar cleaners are somehow both
worthless for cleaning crud off chains (a common comment) and yet
powerful enough to crack steel links (frequently the next comment).

But a quick look at the archives suggests an alternative explanation,
namely that someone takes a _rusty_ and filthy chain, cleans it, and
then discovers numerous cracks in the chain, probably caused by rust
expanding inside the chain.

In other words, the cleaner gets the blamed for the rust's dirty work.

The cracks caused by the rust could be pre-existing and invisible
under the crud until the chain was cleaned . Or the cracks could be
caused by rust expanding inside the links during the actual bath:

"Now that I think about it, I do recall hearing noises apart from the
bubbling while it [rusty 14-year-old-chain] was soaking [in dilute
phosphoric acid] which may have been the links fracturing. How could
being immersed in dilute H3PO4 have cause failure in this form?"

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/b7cdb6c787e9be0d/7976ca9a1b17cd21?lnk=gst&q=%22simple+green%22+chain&rnum=10#7976ca9a1b17cd21
or http://tinyurl.com/2bcwd2

There's a nice picture of the cracked chain:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/85942209@N00/76768811/

In the same thread, Mike DeMicco pointed out that Simple Green isn't
even acidic, though it got blamed for the phosphoric acid bath
results:

"Simple Green seems to be much maligned. If you look at the MSDS
sheet, concentrated it has a pH of 9.5 (mildly basic). It should be
diluted anyway, which will reduce the pH. As long as you leave a chain
soaking in it for about a half an hour, and remove by flushing with
water, I don't see how it could cause damage to the chain. I've been
using it for years and have not had a problem. I would not leave a
chain soaking in it overnight; nor would I leave a chain soaking in
water that long either (unless I wanted a rusty chain)."

And Werehatrack mentioned that he's seen rusty chains crack:

"I've seen this kind of cracking (though not as extensively) in
corroded chains that had not been run through a corrosion removal
bath, so I suspect that at least some of the cracks were there before
it was soaked. OTOH, the acid etches the surface of the metal as well
as removing the oxide, particularly with certain alloys. I would not
be surprised if the failure was aggravated by the acid bath, but I
think the chain was likely junk before it was dipped."

So far, a cheap chain subjected to half a dozen cleanings using Simple
Green in an ultrasonic cleaner during some cleaning tests hasn't
cracked.

Like most chains, it's likely to be replaced long before any subtle
chemically-induced cracks can appear.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

monkeyboy said:

Quoted message said:

How do I know the chain is dirty enough to needs cleaning?
Is soaking in acetone a good way to accomplish that? For how long?

Ok, here is my method.... keep a container of mineral spirits, pull
the chain, hang it from a piece of coat hanger, and soak it in the
mineral spirits while you floss the cogset and clean the pullys ect.
Pull the chain from the mineral spirits and wipe clean. I have a
naglene bottle full of motor oil, with a vacuum fitting glued into the
top. Drop the chain into the motor oil, put the cap on and pull a
vacuum on the bottle (I use a hand vacuum pump used for bleeding auto
brakes, about $20, also a small piece of coat hanger hooked to the
chain in the bottle makes it easy to remove). You will see the chain
fizz as the air comes out to the crevices, then release the vacuum,
and the oil is forced into the chain. Let it drip dry for a bit,
install, and wipe off the excess. Takes about 10-15min total and has
very little spray onto the wheels/bike when your done. Seems to do a
nice job of lubing the chain.

Hello MB

I find your technique interesting, not just for cleaning & lubing
chains but other things as well. Anything that has nooks & crannies
that is hard/ impossible to clean & lube such as rear detailers &
cassette BBs.

However I'm not clear on one thing. You pull the vacuum w/ the chain
soaking in the oil. So that means that U pull all or most of the oil &
air out, then release the vacuum. Whereupon the air & oil return to
the container & chain. Wouldn't the air pressurize the chain prior to
the oil due to the airs lower viscosity? Wouldn't a better procedure
be to insert the clean chain in the vac. chamber, pull the vacuum,
then allow small amounts of oil into the chamber while continuing to
pull a vacuum?

Quoted message said:

Seems to do a nice job of lubing the chain.

How many road, or off road, miles in dry conditions do you get this
way? Wet miles?
How much more use do you reckon you get vs. less involved methods?
I'm going to have to try this myself.

I think it's hard to beat Bill S.'s & my method. Only I prefer
Boeshield T-9. Then drip much more, T-9 on the chain, than required,
while backpedaling. Forward pedal while shifting to all gears 2 or 3
times. "Floss" cogs & CRs, if grungy (which they rarely are).
Backpedal a few minutes, while wiping the chain w/ clean shop rag
continually changing to clean rag areas. I waste quire a bit of T-9.
Like BS, I don't ride in the rain. I've never tried not wiping the
clean like BS. I guess I should try it & try White Lightning

I get ~200 dry road miles. I used to lube the chain when it started to
chirp. However I have found that shifting starts to slightly deteriate
~40 mi prior to squeaking. So I lube now @ the first sign of hesitant
shifting, which is ~200.

Regards, John

On 22 Feb 2007 13:43:37 -0800, "john" <[email hidden]> wrote:

[vacuum chamber]

Quoted message said:

How many road, or off road, miles in dry conditions do you get this
way? Wet miles?

That's the key question.

Quoted message said:

How much more use do you reckon you get vs. less involved methods?
I'm going to have to try this myself.

I think it's hard to beat Bill S.'s & my method.

I also use your method and get about 3500km from a 9-speed chain
before it needs replacing.

Quoted message said:

Sheldon Brown said:

Quoth Carl Fogel:

Quoted message said:

Browse aroundSheldon Brown'ssite for lots of interesting articles:

http://sheldonbrown.com/articles.html

Sheldon mentions the shake-it-in-a-pop-bottle-with-Simple-Green method
of chain cleaning:

"I used to use a parts cleaning tank and a toothbrush to clean chains,
but Zaven Ghazarian, an excellent mechanic I used to work with came up
with a better system: drop the chain into a plastic Coke bottle with a
couple of ounces of un-diluted citrus degreaser, cap it, and shake
thoroughly. Fish the chain out with a spoke, rinse in water, and you
are all set!"

http://sheldonbrown.com/chains.html

Actually, that's not quite correct. I do recommend using a Coke
(never Pepsi!) bottle, but I do NOT recommend Simple Green.

There have been many credible reports of chains damaged by Simple
Green. I'm not a chemist, and don't understand the mechanism
involved, but there have been too many cases of this to ignore.

Sheldon "Citrus" Brown
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Honestly, I think we should just trust our president in every |
| decision that he makes and we should just support that. |
| -- Britney Spears, September 4, 2003 |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Dear Sheldon,

Sorry for the mistake.

It could be that Simple Green and similar cleaners are somehow both
worthless for cleaning crud off chains (a common comment) and yet
powerful enough to crack steel links (frequently the next comment).

But a quick look at the archives suggests an alternative explanation,
namely that someone takes a _rusty_ and filthy chain, cleans it, and
then discovers numerous cracks in the chain, probably caused by rust
expanding inside the chain.

In other words, the cleaner gets the blamed for the rust's dirty work.

The cracks caused by the rust could be pre-existing and invisible
under the crud until the chain was cleaned . Or the cracks could be
caused by rust expanding inside the links during the actual bath:

"Now that I think about it, I do recall hearing noises apart from the
bubbling while it [rusty 14-year-old-chain] was soaking [in dilute
phosphoric acid] which may have been the links fracturing. How could
being immersed in dilute H3PO4 have cause failure in this form?"

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/b7cdb6c787e9be0d/7976ca9a1b17cd21?lnk=gst&q=%22simple+green%22+chain&rnum=10#7976ca9a1b17cd21
or http://tinyurl.com/2bcwd2

There's a nice picture of the cracked chain:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/85942209@N00/76768811/

In the same thread, Mike DeMicco pointed out that Simple Green isn't
even acidic, though it got blamed for the phosphoric acid bath
results:

"Simple Green seems to be much maligned. If you look at the MSDS
sheet, concentrated it has a pH of 9.5 (mildly basic). It should be
diluted anyway, which will reduce the pH. As long as you leave a chain
soaking in it for about a half an hour, and remove by flushing with
water, I don't see how it could cause damage to the chain. I've been
using it for years and have not had a problem. I would not leave a
chain soaking in it overnight; nor would I leave a chain soaking in
water that long either (unless I wanted a rusty chain)."

And Werehatrack mentioned that he's seen rusty chains crack:

"I've seen this kind of cracking (though not as extensively) in
corroded chains that had not been run through a corrosion removal
bath, so I suspect that at least some of the cracks were there before
it was soaked. OTOH, the acid etches the surface of the metal as well
as removing the oxide, particularly with certain alloys. I would not
be surprised if the failure was aggravated by the acid bath, but I
think the chain was likely junk before it was dipped."

So far, a cheap chain subjected to half a dozen cleanings using Simple
Green in an ultrasonic cleaner during some cleaning tests hasn't
cracked.

Like most chains, it's likely to be replaced long before any subtle
chemically-induced cracks can appear.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

you don't need acid for stress corrosion cracking - ammonia is far from
acidic and it works great on copper alloys. rust is not a cracking
agent either. chains that crack when in a corrosion removal bath,
whatever that may contain, are almost certainly cracked by the solution,
not the rust. you can get cracking with rust by pressure bursting, but
that's a different mechanism again, and on a chain, the links would pop
before they cracked.

jim beam said:

Quoted message said:

Sheldon Brown said:

Quoth Carl Fogel:

> Browse aroundSheldon Brown'ssite for lots of interesting articles:
>
> http://sheldonbrown.com/articles.html
>
> Sheldon mentions the shake-it-in-a-pop-bottle-with-Simple-Green method
> of chain cleaning:
>
> "I used to use a parts cleaning tank and a toothbrush to clean chains,
> but Zaven Ghazarian, an excellent mechanic I used to work with came up
> with a better system: drop the chain into a plastic Coke bottle with a
> couple of ounces of un-diluted citrus degreaser, cap it, and shake
> thoroughly. Fish the chain out with a spoke, rinse in water, and you
> are all set!"
>
> http://sheldonbrown.com/chains.html
Actually, that's not quite correct. I do recommend using a Coke
(never Pepsi!) bottle, but I do NOT recommend Simple Green.

There have been many credible reports of chains damaged by Simple
Green. I'm not a chemist, and don't understand the mechanism
involved, but there have been too many cases of this to ignore.

Sheldon "Citrus" Brown
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Honestly, I think we should just trust our president in every |
| decision that he makes and we should just support that. |
| -- Britney Spears, September 4, 2003 |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Dear Sheldon,

Sorry for the mistake.

It could be that Simple Green and similar cleaners are somehow both
worthless for cleaning crud off chains (a common comment) and yet
powerful enough to crack steel links (frequently the next comment).

But a quick look at the archives suggests an alternative explanation,
namely that someone takes a _rusty_ and filthy chain, cleans it, and
then discovers numerous cracks in the chain, probably caused by rust
expanding inside the chain.

In other words, the cleaner gets the blamed for the rust's dirty work.

The cracks caused by the rust could be pre-existing and invisible
under the crud until the chain was cleaned . Or the cracks could be
caused by rust expanding inside the links during the actual bath:

"Now that I think about it, I do recall hearing noises apart from the
bubbling while it [rusty 14-year-old-chain] was soaking [in dilute
phosphoric acid] which may have been the links fracturing. How could
being immersed in dilute H3PO4 have cause failure in this form?"

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/b7cdb6c787e9be0d/7976ca9a1b17cd21?lnk=gst&q=%22simple+green%22+chain&rnum=10#7976ca9a1b17cd21
or http://tinyurl.com/2bcwd2

There's a nice picture of the cracked chain:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/85942209@N00/76768811/

In the same thread, Mike DeMicco pointed out that Simple Green isn't
even acidic, though it got blamed for the phosphoric acid bath
results:

"Simple Green seems to be much maligned. If you look at the MSDS
sheet, concentrated it has a pH of 9.5 (mildly basic). It should be
diluted anyway, which will reduce the pH. As long as you leave a chain
soaking in it for about a half an hour, and remove by flushing with
water, I don't see how it could cause damage to the chain. I've been
using it for years and have not had a problem. I would not leave a
chain soaking in it overnight; nor would I leave a chain soaking in
water that long either (unless I wanted a rusty chain)."

And Werehatrack mentioned that he's seen rusty chains crack:

"I've seen this kind of cracking (though not as extensively) in
corroded chains that had not been run through a corrosion removal
bath, so I suspect that at least some of the cracks were there before
it was soaked. OTOH, the acid etches the surface of the metal as well
as removing the oxide, particularly with certain alloys. I would not
be surprised if the failure was aggravated by the acid bath, but I
think the chain was likely junk before it was dipped."

So far, a cheap chain subjected to half a dozen cleanings using Simple
Green in an ultrasonic cleaner during some cleaning tests hasn't
cracked.

Like most chains, it's likely to be replaced long before any subtle
chemically-induced cracks can appear.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

you don't need acid for stress corrosion cracking - ammonia is far from
acidic and it works great on copper alloys. rust is not a cracking
agent either. chains that crack when in a corrosion removal bath,
whatever that may contain, are almost certainly cracked by the solution,
not the rust. you can get cracking with rust by pressure bursting, but
that's a different mechanism again, and on a chain, the links would pop
before they cracked.

Dear Jim,

The only visible cracks are on outer plates, where the pins are jammed
tight into the metal:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/85942209@N00/76768811/

It would be interesting to find out if there are any cracks on the
ends of the inner plates, which have the play.

If only outer plates crack, then rust swollen by the chemical bath is
likely to be the culprit.

Also, every crack except one is roughly horizontal. This may be how
two posts swelling in all directions at either end of a long plate
cause things to break, but it may just reflect the outward wedging of
the directional pin riveting process.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Werehatrack said:

may have said:

How do I know the chain is dirty enough to needs cleaning?

This is entirely a matter of opinion. If you think it's dirty enough,
clean it.

Quoted message said:

Is soaking in acetone a good way to accomplish that?

Acetone provides no advantage over mineral spirits, and has several
disadvantages.

What are they?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For how long?

Acetone has a hazardously high flash point and some health issues;

One more reason to get rid of the leftovers I have
won't you think? Or you think I may need it for something else?
I guess I can fight an urge to use it for a while.

Quoted message said:

it's much safer (and cheaper) to use mineral spirits.

Noted.

Quoted message said:

A commonly-used method of chain cleaning involves putting a quart of
mineral spirits in a two-liter soda bottle, dropping the chain into
the bottle with a string tied to one end to facilitate removal later,
screwing on the cap, letting it soak for about an hour, agitating it
by shaking for a few minutes, and then pulling the chain out and
wiping off the excess spirits before oiling. The dirty spirits can be
re-used easily; let the dirt settle out for a couple of days, and pour
off the relatively clean spirits into a different two-liter bottle,
which is then capped securely, ready and waiting for the next chain to
need cleaning.

Thank you. I assume Home Depot or a paint supply store would have
some.
Per MB I need to "floss the cogset and clean the pullys" too????

I don't see "ammonia" anywhere on the old jug od simple green
I wanted to use after I saw first replies but before I saw the
last ones.

According to this:
http://sheldonbrown.com/chains.html#wear
I can use motorcycle chain lube on the bicycle chain?

I have W30 motor oil, tons of leftover motorcycle chain lube
and a few triflow bottles I bought at the bike store.
Should I try to use them all of them and if so in which order?
(To preempt questions about my sanity: not at the same time :-)

Quoted message said:

jim beam said:

Quoted message said:

On 22 Feb 2007 10:01:01 -0800, "Sheldon Brown"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

> Quoth Carl Fogel:
>
>> Browse aroundSheldon Brown'ssite for lots of interesting articles:
>>
>> http://sheldonbrown.com/articles.html
>>
>> Sheldon mentions the shake-it-in-a-pop-bottle-with-Simple-Green method
>> of chain cleaning:
>>
>> "I used to use a parts cleaning tank and a toothbrush to clean chains,
>> but Zaven Ghazarian, an excellent mechanic I used to work with came up
>> with a better system: drop the chain into a plastic Coke bottle with a
>> couple of ounces of un-diluted citrus degreaser, cap it, and shake
>> thoroughly. Fish the chain out with a spoke, rinse in water, and you
>> are all set!"
>>
>> http://sheldonbrown.com/chains.html
> Actually, that's not quite correct. I do recommend using a Coke
> (never Pepsi!) bottle, but I do NOT recommend Simple Green.
>
> There have been many credible reports of chains damaged by Simple
> Green. I'm not a chemist, and don't understand the mechanism
> involved, but there have been too many cases of this to ignore.
>
> Sheldon "Citrus" Brown
> +------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Honestly, I think we should just trust our president in every |
> | decision that he makes and we should just support that. |
> | -- Britney Spears, September 4, 2003 |
> +------------------------------------------------------------------+
> Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
> Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
> http://harriscyclery.com
> Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
> http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
Dear Sheldon,

Sorry for the mistake.

It could be that Simple Green and similar cleaners are somehow both
worthless for cleaning crud off chains (a common comment) and yet
powerful enough to crack steel links (frequently the next comment).

But a quick look at the archives suggests an alternative explanation,
namely that someone takes a _rusty_ and filthy chain, cleans it, and
then discovers numerous cracks in the chain, probably caused by rust
expanding inside the chain.

In other words, the cleaner gets the blamed for the rust's dirty work.

The cracks caused by the rust could be pre-existing and invisible
under the crud until the chain was cleaned . Or the cracks could be
caused by rust expanding inside the links during the actual bath:

"Now that I think about it, I do recall hearing noises apart from the
bubbling while it [rusty 14-year-old-chain] was soaking [in dilute
phosphoric acid] which may have been the links fracturing. How could
being immersed in dilute H3PO4 have cause failure in this form?"

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/b7cdb6c787e9be0d/7976ca9a1b17cd21?lnk=gst&q=%22simple+green%22+chain&rnum=10#7976ca9a1b17cd21
or http://tinyurl.com/2bcwd2

There's a nice picture of the cracked chain:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/85942209@N00/76768811/

In the same thread, Mike DeMicco pointed out that Simple Green isn't
even acidic, though it got blamed for the phosphoric acid bath
results:

"Simple Green seems to be much maligned. If you look at the MSDS
sheet, concentrated it has a pH of 9.5 (mildly basic). It should be
diluted anyway, which will reduce the pH. As long as you leave a chain
soaking in it for about a half an hour, and remove by flushing with
water, I don't see how it could cause damage to the chain. I've been
using it for years and have not had a problem. I would not leave a
chain soaking in it overnight; nor would I leave a chain soaking in
water that long either (unless I wanted a rusty chain)."

And Werehatrack mentioned that he's seen rusty chains crack:

"I've seen this kind of cracking (though not as extensively) in
corroded chains that had not been run through a corrosion removal
bath, so I suspect that at least some of the cracks were there before
it was soaked. OTOH, the acid etches the surface of the metal as well
as removing the oxide, particularly with certain alloys. I would not
be surprised if the failure was aggravated by the acid bath, but I
think the chain was likely junk before it was dipped."

So far, a cheap chain subjected to half a dozen cleanings using Simple
Green in an ultrasonic cleaner during some cleaning tests hasn't
cracked.

Like most chains, it's likely to be replaced long before any subtle
chemically-induced cracks can appear.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

you don't need acid for stress corrosion cracking - ammonia is far from
acidic and it works great on copper alloys. rust is not a cracking
agent either. chains that crack when in a corrosion removal bath,
whatever that may contain, are almost certainly cracked by the solution,
not the rust. you can get cracking with rust by pressure bursting, but
that's a different mechanism again, and on a chain, the links would pop
before they cracked.

Dear Jim,

The only visible cracks are on outer plates, where the pins are jammed
tight into the metal:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/85942209@N00/76768811/

It would be interesting to find out if there are any cracks on the
ends of the inner plates, which have the play.

If only outer plates crack, then rust swollen by the chemical bath is
likely to be the culprit.

it's not rust, it's stress corrosion. rust is a surface electrolytic
reaction - it doesn't go deep crevice unless there's a feature like a
fold it can follow. if rust had the features associated with stress
corrosion, steel would be virtually unusable.

Quoted message said:

Also, every crack except one is roughly horizontal. This may be how
two posts swelling in all directions at either end of a long plate
cause things to break, but it may just reflect the outward wedging of
the directional pin riveting process.

the posts are not swelling. they are larger than the holes, and they
stay that way. there's applied stress associated with that fit, and
that in combination with the phosphoric is causing stress corrosion.
[d.a.g.s. and see how frequently phosphoric comes up as an agent in
steels.] also d.a.g.s. on the effects of anisotropy on scc. the chain
cracks shown are classic and following, initially at any rate, the
rolling direction of the sheet from which they're punched.

again, there are two features that figure large in stress corrosion -
residual stress and anisotropy. here you have a "permanent" applied
stress, anisotropy, and phosphoric acid - it's a no-brainer.

In article <[email hidden]>,

jim beam said:

you don't need acid for stress corrosion cracking - ammonia is far
from acidic and it works great on copper alloys. rust is not a
cracking agent either. chains that crack when in a corrosion removal
bath, whatever that may contain, are almost certainly cracked by the
solution, not the rust. you can get cracking with rust by pressure
bursting, but that's a different mechanism again, and on a chain, the
links would pop before they cracked.

It seems to me that the relatively loose fit of the rollers on the pins,
and between the side plates and the rollers, that it'd be difficult if
not impossible for internal rust to cause the chain to crack from
expansion. Is that what you're getting at?

Seems like you're also suggesting that the interference fit between the
pins and the plates would give first. That makes sense to me since I
can drive a pin out of a chain much more easily than I can bend or crack
a side plate with a chain tool.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

I have W30 motor oil, tons of leftover motorcycle chain lube and a
few triflow bottles I bought at the bike store. Should I try to use
them all of them and if so in which order? (To preempt questions
about my sanity: not at the same time :-)

Skip the Triflow. Motor oil or motorcycle chain lube is a better choice.

Sheldon Brown said:

Quoth Carl Fogel:

Quoted message said:

Browse aroundSheldon Brown'ssite for lots of interesting articles:

http://sheldonbrown.com/articles.html

Sheldon mentions the shake-it-in-a-pop-bottle-with-Simple-Green method
of chain cleaning:

"I used to use a parts cleaning tank and a toothbrush to clean chains,
but Zaven Ghazarian, an excellent mechanic I used to work with came up
with a better system: drop the chain into a plastic Coke bottle with a
couple of ounces of un-diluted citrus degreaser, cap it, and shake
thoroughly. Fish the chain out with a spoke, rinse in water, and you
are all set!"

http://sheldonbrown.com/chains.html

Actually, that's not quite correct. I do recommend using a Coke
(never Pepsi!) bottle, but I do NOT recommend Simple Green.

There have been many credible reports of chains damaged by Simple
Green. I'm not a chemist, and don't understand the mechanism
involved, but there have been too many cases of this to ignore.

Sheldon "Citrus" Brown
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Honestly, I think we should just trust our president in every |
| decision that he makes and we should just support that. |
| -- Britney Spears, September 4, 2003 |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Dear Sheldon,

While Simple Green is base rather than acid, here's a chain company
page that supports the idea that I was wrong in my reply and that bad
things might happen:

"Do not use weak-acid rust remover (such as phosphatic rust remover)
on these chains. These chemicals can cause hydrogen embrittlement and
chain breakage."

http://chain-guide.com/applications/1-5-1-bicycle-chain.html

In other words, the dilute phosphatic acid used in the thread that I
cited is specifically mentioned by chain companies as a problem.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel