chain cleaner... yes or no?

Quoted message said:

Dear all,
I am fairly new to cycling and as I sit here trying to clean up my
bike, I am wondering if it would be a good idea to invest in a chain
cleaner. My chain seems to get pretty dirty (city/path riding)
especially now that its winter. If not a chain cleaner, any other
suggestions? Thanks!

If you don't have much time to spend cleaning your bike, a chain cleaner
might be the best way to go. Otherwise, you're better off removing the chain
and cleaning it off the bike. I use a wide-mouth plastic bottle (like the
type that "Vitamin Water" comes in), fill it about one-third with a citrus
cleaner, and one third *hot* water (from a tea kettle or coffee machine) and
dump the chain in. To be shaken, not stirred. You'll see the cleanest chain
you imagined possible emerge after a few minutes of shaking it up.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

"wiscojohn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dear all,
I am fairly new to cycling and as I sit here trying to clean up my
bike, I am wondering if it would be a good idea to invest in a chain
cleaner. My chain seems to get pretty dirty (city/path riding)
especially now that its winter. If not a chain cleaner, any other
suggestions? Thanks!

-J

On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 03:46:16 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"

Quoted message said:

If you don't have much time to spend cleaning your bike, a chain cleaner
might be the best way to go. Otherwise, you're better off removing the chain
and cleaning it off the bike. I use a wide-mouth plastic bottle (like the
type that "Vitamin Water" comes in), fill it about one-third with a citrus
cleaner, and one third *hot* water (from a tea kettle or coffee machine) and
dump the chain in. To be shaken, not stirred. You'll see the cleanest chain
you imagined possible emerge after a few minutes of shaking it up.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Dear Mike,

I recently acquired an ultrasonic cleaner that must have fallen off
the back of Santa's sleigh after he loaded up at Harbor Freight.

I'd read RBT posts about how an ultrasonic cleaner would get my chain
cleaner than I imagined possible, so I popped a filthy chain into it
and ran it for the maximum 8 minute cycle.

I was disappointed, since I'd been hoping to see dramatic results,
with lots of tiny bubbles and exciting clouds of grime swirling off
the chain. Apparently, the microscopic bubbles really are microscopic,
and the grime didn't swirl much.

I kept cycling the chain and pouring out filthy water and detergent
off and on all day. I lost track of how many 8 minute cycles were
involved, but it was more than a dozen.

The chain _looked_ clean, but every time I ran the cleaner again, the
water turned dirty.

I finally gave up, put the chain back on my bike, sprayed a little
WD40 on it, and ran it through a paper towel--my, what nasty black
marks!

Maybe, I thought, it was just picking up grime from my sprockets and
idler gears.

A few days later, I went through the whole business again, more than a
dozen 8 minute cleanings on a chain that wasn't all that dirty. This
time, I sprayed it with WD40 a few times and then dunked it in the
cleaner. Again, it looked awfully clean, but the water always ended up
dirty after another 8 minute cycle.

And when I sprayed the clean-looking chain with WD40 before putting it
on the sprockets and ran it through a clean paper towel, the same
black marks appeared.

I suspect that the ultrasonic cleaner (possibly underpowered?) doesn't
get at the only grime that really matters, namely the stuff inside the
pins and rollers.

I'm starting to wonder how well solvents do and whether it's actually
possible to clean the inside of a chain that's actually been oiled and
ridden a hundred miles.

If you'll recommend a brand of citrus cleaner, I'll try the wide-mouth
jar and shaking and then see what happens when I spray some WD40 on
the chain afterward and see what kind of paper towel results I get.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

carlfogel said:

On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 03:46:16 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"

Quoted message said:

If you don't have much time to spend cleaning your bike, a chain cleaner
might be the best way to go. Otherwise, you're better off removing the
chain and cleaning it off the bike. I use a wide-mouth plastic bottle
(like the type that "Vitamin Water" comes in), fill it about one-third
with a citrus cleaner, and one third *hot* water (from a tea kettle or
coffee machine) and dump the chain in. To be shaken, not stirred. You'll
see the cleanest chain you imagined possible emerge after a few minutes
of shaking it up.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Dear Mike,

I recently acquired an ultrasonic cleaner that must have fallen off the
back of Santa's sleigh after he loaded up at Harbor Freight.

I'd read RBT posts about how an ultrasonic cleaner would get my chain
cleaner than I imagined possible, so I popped a filthy chain into it and
ran it for the maximum 8 minute cycle.

I was disappointed, since I'd been hoping to see dramatic results, with
lots of tiny bubbles and exciting clouds of grime swirling off the
chain. Apparently, the microscopic bubbles really are microscopic, and
the grime didn't swirl much.

I kept cycling the chain and pouring out filthy water and detergent off
and on all day. I lost track of how many 8 minute cycles were involved,
but it was more than a dozen.

The chain _looked_ clean, but every time I ran the cleaner again, the
water turned dirty.

I finally gave up, put the chain back on my bike, sprayed a little WD40
on it, and ran it through a paper towel--my, what nasty black marks!

Maybe, I thought, it was just picking up grime from my sprockets and
idler gears.

A few days later, I went through the whole business again, more than a
dozen 8 minute cleanings on a chain that wasn't all that dirty. This
time, I sprayed it with WD40 a few times and then dunked it in the
cleaner. Again, it looked awfully clean, but the water always ended up
dirty after another 8 minute cycle.

And when I sprayed the clean-looking chain with WD40 before putting it
on the sprockets and ran it through a clean paper towel, the same black
marks appeared.

I suspect that the ultrasonic cleaner (possibly underpowered?) doesn't
get at the only grime that really matters, namely the stuff inside the
pins and rollers.

I'm starting to wonder how well solvents do and whether it's actually
possible to clean the inside of a chain that's actually been oiled and
ridden a hundred miles.

If you'll recommend a brand of citrus cleaner, I'll try the wide-mouth
jar and shaking and then see what happens when I spray some WD40 on the
chain afterward and see what kind of paper towel results I get.

Carl,

It's possible your ultrasonic cleaner is too small, and maybe
underpowered. I had one that worked extremely well, but it was a larger
unit intended for automotive parts, etc. Most of the ones I see
advertised are intended for jewelry, dentures, etc.

Mike's technique works fine, and the stronger the solvent the better it
works. As he's found, heat helps too. To get a chain really clean, the
key is lots of fluid. This means either plenty of fluid changes until the
fluid runs clear, or a water based solvent like citrus degreaser and lots
of running water to rinse. Soaking well to begin with ensures everything
will be dissolved, and rinse away completely.

The problem with chain cleaners is that their fluid reservoirs are too
small. You'll never get a chain clean enough without changing
the fluid dozens of times. With today's detachable links there's no
reason to use a chain cleaner anyway. It's faster, easier, and a lot less
messy to remove the chain and put it in a jar with some solvent. So
do not waste your money on chain cleaners.

I've been using the auto parts cleaner that comes in a gallon paint can,
with a small parts bucket inside. Soak for 15-20 minutes, agitate
occasionally, then rinse clean with water. The dirt settles harmlessly to
the bottom of the can, and the fluid can be reused for decades. While the
chain is soaking, a dab of the solvent on a rag can be used to clean the
rest of the drivetrain.

Matt O.

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 03:46:16 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"

Quoted message said:

If you don't have much time to spend cleaning your bike, a chain cleaner
might be the best way to go. Otherwise, you're better off removing the chain
and cleaning it off the bike. I use a wide-mouth plastic bottle (like the
type that "Vitamin Water" comes in), fill it about one-third with a citrus
cleaner, and one third *hot* water (from a tea kettle or coffee machine) and
dump the chain in. To be shaken, not stirred. You'll see the cleanest chain
you imagined possible emerge after a few minutes of shaking it up.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Dear Mike,

I recently acquired an ultrasonic cleaner that must have fallen off
the back of Santa's sleigh after he loaded up at Harbor Freight.

I'd read RBT posts about how an ultrasonic cleaner would get my chain
cleaner than I imagined possible, so I popped a filthy chain into it
and ran it for the maximum 8 minute cycle.

I was disappointed, since I'd been hoping to see dramatic results,
with lots of tiny bubbles and exciting clouds of grime swirling off
the chain. Apparently, the microscopic bubbles really are microscopic,
and the grime didn't swirl much.

I kept cycling the chain and pouring out filthy water and detergent
off and on all day. I lost track of how many 8 minute cycles were
involved, but it was more than a dozen.

The chain _looked_ clean, but every time I ran the cleaner again, the
water turned dirty.

I finally gave up, put the chain back on my bike, sprayed a little
WD40 on it, and ran it through a paper towel--my, what nasty black
marks!

Maybe, I thought, it was just picking up grime from my sprockets and
idler gears.

A few days later, I went through the whole business again, more than a
dozen 8 minute cleanings on a chain that wasn't all that dirty. This
time, I sprayed it with WD40 a few times and then dunked it in the
cleaner. Again, it looked awfully clean, but the water always ended up
dirty after another 8 minute cycle.

And when I sprayed the clean-looking chain with WD40 before putting it
on the sprockets and ran it through a clean paper towel, the same
black marks appeared.

I suspect that the ultrasonic cleaner (possibly underpowered?) doesn't
get at the only grime that really matters, namely the stuff inside the
pins and rollers.

I'm starting to wonder how well solvents do and whether it's actually
possible to clean the inside of a chain that's actually been oiled and
ridden a hundred miles.

If you'll recommend a brand of citrus cleaner, I'll try the wide-mouth
jar and shaking and then see what happens when I spray some WD40 on
the chain afterward and see what kind of paper towel results I get.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Could the ultrasonic cleaner be damaging the bearing surfaces in the chain?

Martin

--
Removed z before replying by email.

Matt O'Toole said:

carlfogel said:

On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 03:46:16 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"

Quoted message said:

If you don't have much time to spend cleaning your bike, a chain cleaner
might be the best way to go. Otherwise, you're better off removing the
chain and cleaning it off the bike. I use a wide-mouth plastic bottle
(like the type that "Vitamin Water" comes in), fill it about one-third
with a citrus cleaner, and one third *hot* water (from a tea kettle or
coffee machine) and dump the chain in. To be shaken, not stirred. You'll
see the cleanest chain you imagined possible emerge after a few minutes
of shaking it up.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Dear Mike,

I recently acquired an ultrasonic cleaner that must have fallen off the
back of Santa's sleigh after he loaded up at Harbor Freight.

I'd read RBT posts about how an ultrasonic cleaner would get my chain
cleaner than I imagined possible, so I popped a filthy chain into it and
ran it for the maximum 8 minute cycle.

I was disappointed, since I'd been hoping to see dramatic results, with
lots of tiny bubbles and exciting clouds of grime swirling off the
chain. Apparently, the microscopic bubbles really are microscopic, and
the grime didn't swirl much.

I kept cycling the chain and pouring out filthy water and detergent off
and on all day. I lost track of how many 8 minute cycles were involved,
but it was more than a dozen.

The chain _looked_ clean, but every time I ran the cleaner again, the
water turned dirty.

I finally gave up, put the chain back on my bike, sprayed a little WD40
on it, and ran it through a paper towel--my, what nasty black marks!

Maybe, I thought, it was just picking up grime from my sprockets and
idler gears.

A few days later, I went through the whole business again, more than a
dozen 8 minute cleanings on a chain that wasn't all that dirty. This
time, I sprayed it with WD40 a few times and then dunked it in the
cleaner. Again, it looked awfully clean, but the water always ended up
dirty after another 8 minute cycle.

And when I sprayed the clean-looking chain with WD40 before putting it
on the sprockets and ran it through a clean paper towel, the same black
marks appeared.

I suspect that the ultrasonic cleaner (possibly underpowered?) doesn't
get at the only grime that really matters, namely the stuff inside the
pins and rollers.

I'm starting to wonder how well solvents do and whether it's actually
possible to clean the inside of a chain that's actually been oiled and
ridden a hundred miles.

If you'll recommend a brand of citrus cleaner, I'll try the wide-mouth
jar and shaking and then see what happens when I spray some WD40 on the
chain afterward and see what kind of paper towel results I get.

Carl,

It's possible your ultrasonic cleaner is too small, and maybe
underpowered. I had one that worked extremely well, but it was a larger
unit intended for automotive parts, etc. Most of the ones I see
advertised are intended for jewelry, dentures, etc.

Mike's technique works fine, and the stronger the solvent the better it
works. As he's found, heat helps too. To get a chain really clean, the
key is lots of fluid. This means either plenty of fluid changes until the
fluid runs clear, or a water based solvent like citrus degreaser and lots
of running water to rinse. Soaking well to begin with ensures everything
will be dissolved, and rinse away completely.

The problem with chain cleaners is that their fluid reservoirs are too
small. You'll never get a chain clean enough without changing
the fluid dozens of times. With today's detachable links there's no
reason to use a chain cleaner anyway. It's faster, easier, and a lot less
messy to remove the chain and put it in a jar with some solvent. So
do not waste your money on chain cleaners.

I've been using the auto parts cleaner that comes in a gallon paint can,
with a small parts bucket inside. Soak for 15-20 minutes, agitate
occasionally, then rinse clean with water. The dirt settles harmlessly to
the bottom of the can, and the fluid can be reused for decades. While the
chain is soaking, a dab of the solvent on a rag can be used to clean the
rest of the drivetrain.

Matt O.

Dear Matt,

I suspect that the ultrasonic doesn't work inside the pins and rollers
because that space is full of dirty oil.

If so, the microscopically bubbling water only works on the tiny edge
of the wide oil film between a pin and roller.

Similarly, I'm wondering if the solvent only works on the same edge of
the filthy oil, leaving the part that we want to clean largely
untouched.

It would be interesting if most of our chain cleaning rituals turn out
to be mostly cosmetic, or if one method works better than another.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

wiscojohn said:

Dear all,
I am fairly new to cycling and as I sit here trying to clean up my
bike, I am wondering if it would be a good idea to invest in a chain
cleaner. My chain seems to get pretty dirty (city/path riding)
especially now that its winter. If not a chain cleaner, any other
suggestions? Thanks!

-J

I've tried the Park chain cleaner gizmo, and it was more trouble than
it was worth. I imagine the others are the same. Splatter, drips,
leaking solvent/soap, and not really clean chain. All it did was make a
mess. I have found it much easier and less messy to remove the chain
and drop it into a plastic jug with some solvent and shake it around. I
cut up som scotch-brite pads that I threw in there too in the hope they
would help scrub some of the gunk off. I doubt that works, but I did it
anyway.

For me the big problem is finding the right solvent. White Spirit works
well, but what do I then do with all that nasty fluid? I have some
bio-degreaser from the auto parts store that seems to be a shade less
effective than Ivory soap! The only citrus stuff I could find was a
spray can of 3M for $50!!!

IMO, those chaincleaner gizmos are a waste of time.

Joseph

Quoted message said:

wiscojohn said:

Dear all,
I am fairly new to cycling and as I sit here trying to clean up my
bike, I am wondering if it would be a good idea to invest in a chain
cleaner. My chain seems to get pretty dirty (city/path riding)
especially now that its winter. If not a chain cleaner, any other
suggestions? Thanks!

-J

I've tried the Park chain cleaner gizmo, and it was more trouble than
it was worth. I imagine the others are the same. Splatter, drips,
leaking solvent/soap, and not really clean chain. All it did was make a
mess. I have found it much easier and less messy to remove the chain
and drop it into a plastic jug with some solvent and shake it around. I
cut up som scotch-brite pads that I threw in there too in the hope they
would help scrub some of the gunk off. I doubt that works, but I did it
anyway.

I've also tried chain cleaners and found them much more trouble than the
shaking in a plastic bottle method, which I first read about on
Sheldon's site (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/chains.html), for which you
do need a quick link, but those can be bought very cheaply if you didn't
get one with the chain.

Quoted message said:

For me the big problem is finding the right solvent. White Spirit works
well, but what do I then do with all that nasty fluid? I have some
bio-degreaser from the auto parts store that seems to be a shade less
effective than Ivory soap! The only citrus stuff I could find was a
spray can of 3M for $50!!!

I don't think white spirit is that nasty or hard to dispose of (I use
paraffin, or kerosene as it is known in America). Reuse most of it once
the grime has sunk to the bottom, and as for the last bit, it doesn't
feel right to pour it down the drain but I reckon you might as well burn
it.

Paraffin etc. is much cheaper than those citrus solvents, and I worry
less about leaving a bit on there where it will just thin out the oil a
bit. The citrus stuff you have to wash off thoroughly and dry etc. and
I've never been good at that sort of thing.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
<snip>

Quoted message said:

I suspect that the ultrasonic doesn't work inside the pins and rollers
because that space is full of dirty oil.

If so, the microscopically bubbling water only works on the tiny edge
of the wide oil film between a pin and roller.

Similarly, I'm wondering if the solvent only works on the same edge of
the filthy oil, leaving the part that we want to clean largely
untouched.

It would be interesting if most of our chain cleaning rituals turn out
to be mostly cosmetic, or if one method works better than another.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Carl,

I thought of getting an ultrasonic cleaner for cleaning small parts
myself. Bigger is better! The solvent or cleaner that you are using may
not be aggressive enough to do what you want.

Much of the "black marks" that you get when you wipe the chain after the
surface grit and grease has been cleaned off is made up of microscopic
metal particles from the within the rollers of the chain itself.

Oil, grease and other lubricants resist compression and act as a boundary
layer to prevent metal to metal contact. Gradually as the lubricant breaks
down contact occurs plus microscopic particles of grit get into the
rollers and other moving parts and act as a grinding slurry.

There's a point as the chain wears, that the microscopic particles mixed
with the lubricant, while continuing to increase wear, begin to act as a
support layer between the moving parts.

Continually flushing this mix of wear particles and lubrication out of the
chain could contribute reduced chain life if a heavy duty lubricant
doesn't get back into the rollers to restore the boundary layer.

Sheldon Brown addresses this in his web site.

The chains on old bikes with an oil bath chain case last for years just
like the timing and cam drive chains in car engines. When detergent motor
oils first started being used, they caused many an old worn out engine to
bite the dust because the bearings were running on embedded wear
particles. The detergent cleaned out everything and increased the gaps
between the bearing and the journals, also the pistons and the cylinder
walls.

WD-40 is not an adequate lubricant for an open chain power transmission
system such as used on a bike. WD stands for "Water Displacement". It
contains mostly solvent that evaporates and leaves a thin layer of some
type of lubricant that provides a minor amount of corrosion resistance.

http://www.wd40.com/Brands/wd40_faqs.html

I've been experimenting with dry type chain lubes for a number of years.
The best was a product from Sedis/Sachs that I got about 10-12 years ago.
It's no longer available. The dry lube doesn't pick up as much gunk as the
sticky, messy stuff that leaves black marks on everything that comes in
contact.

I'm using the Boeshield T-9 right now. It seems to be working OK. I wipe
off all of the guk on the chain as I'm applying the Boeshield. I'm too old
to ride around in the rain anymore so I don't worry too much about water
resistance.

I bought one of the Park CC-3 chain Wear Tools thinking that I would find
a number of worn chains on my bikes. Nada, they're all still in good
shape. When chains were a lot cheaper I used to change them after about
3000 miles. I have a box full of used chains and all the ones that I
checked are still good too. Unfortunately, the newer chain designs shift
so much better, the old one are going to stay sitting.

Good luck on your project.

Chas.

Quoted message said:

I recently acquired an ultrasonic cleaner that must have fallen off
the back of Santa's sleigh after he loaded up at Harbor Freight.

I recently acquired a motorized tumbler from Harbor Freight. It's a
rubber cannister that revolves continually at 20 rpm or a little more.
They're intended for smoothing and polishing rocks. Not as big and
pricy as an auto parts cleaner, but big enough for a bicycle chain and
some solvent.

My dirty chain ( 500 miles ) was in the second wash of solvent for a
couple weeks, I put it in a plastic container and shake it up every
other day for a minute. The solvent was far from clear, but not very
dirty either.

I drained and wiped it, gave it a wash in hot water, laundry detergent
and ammonia, dried, it looked okay. I put it in the tumbler with about
6 ounces of solvent, ran it for an hour. The solvent was only a little
bit dirtied, washed, dried again. Put it into the tumbler again, this
time with a few ounces of STP oil treatment, for a couple more hours.
Looked good, little if any dirt in STP. It takes a while for the
excess STP to drain, maybe a few days, I wrap it in paper towels.

I'm riding an 8 speed rear these days, got a couple spare chains from
Nashbar, so this one is a long time from seeing any use. Anyway, the
tumbler machine seems to work pretty good for agitating the chain and
solvent, should be OK with most any cleaner. The tumbler cylinder is
rubber, supposed to work for years with aluminum oxide abrasives, I
couldn't see any damage done from the solvent or STP. Might want to
check it out next time you're at Harbor Freight, only $26 regular
price.

I haven't taken a close look at the ultrasonic devices. Right off the
top of my unlearned little head, I might wonder if the infamous washing
action of physical movement of the chain isn't more effective.
Wavelength of the sound / bushing clearances? Were you able to agitate
- move the chain while it was in the chamber? Maybe, on account of the
chain weight, you should try far longer than 8 minute cycles?

I imagine a good greasing is preferable to STP, but STP is much
preferable to plain oil. Just takes longer for the excess to drip. I
bought a spare chain, so a few weeks are not a problem.

I suppose that just like the greased chain, I'll be able to wipe the
chain, gears, pulleys, and deraileurs clean with a dry lintfree cloth
every few hundred miles, without affecting the lube inside the chain
bushings significantly. The two spare chains I got from from Nashbar I
simply immersed and agitated by hand in STP. The shift from the 12 to
11 seems snappy enough after fifty miles or so, the few times and
places I have occasion for it.

Solvent and ammonia are effective, but tend to give me headaches It
would be nice to find an alternative that didn't cause something worse.

Quoted message said:

I have found it much easier and less messy to remove the chain
and drop it into a plastic jug with some solvent and shake it around. I
cut up som scotch-brite pads that I threw in there too in the hope they
would help scrub some of the gunk off. I doubt that works, but I did it
anyway.

For me the big problem is finding the right solvent. White Spirit works
well, but what do I then do with all that nasty fluid?

Let it settle, then strain it or pour off the relatively clean fluid
at top and re-use that.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Quoted message said:

I have found it much easier and less messy to remove the chain
and drop it into a plastic jug with some solvent and shake it around. I
cut up som scotch-brite pads that I threw in there too in the hope they
would help scrub some of the gunk off. I doubt that works, but I did it
anyway.

For me the big problem is finding the right solvent. White Spirit works
well, but what do I then do with all that nasty fluid?

Let it settle, then strain it or pour off the relatively clean fluid
at top and re-use that.

One other thing -- I firmly wipe of the chain before putting it into
the bottle, to at least have less gunk get into the solvent.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Quoted message said:

If you'll recommend a brand of citrus cleaner, I'll try the wide-mouth
jar and shaking and then see what happens when I spray some WD40 on
the chain afterward and see what kind of paper towel results I get.

Simple Green works pretty good for me.

wiscojohn said:

Dear all,
I am fairly new to cycling and as I sit here trying to clean up my
bike, I am wondering if it would be a good idea to invest in a chain
cleaner. My chain seems to get pretty dirty (city/path riding)
especially now that its winter. If not a chain cleaner, any other
suggestions? Thanks!

-J

Nope, invest in a snap link, a toolless way to take the chain off...put
into a plastic milk jug, mineral spirits, shake, take out, let
dry..While it's drying, take chainrings off, pulleys out, cogs off,
clean all. Grease pulley innards, grease chainring bolts and flats
where the rings touch the crank...make all tight, put chain back
on...lube, ride the next day.

What I do about 1 per month....

carlfogel said:

I suspect that the ultrasonic doesn't work inside the pins and rollers
because that space is full of dirty oil.

If so, the microscopically bubbling water only works on the tiny edge
of the wide oil film between a pin and roller.

Similarly, I'm wondering if the solvent only works on the same edge of
the filthy oil, leaving the part that we want to clean largely
untouched.

Nope, it comes out. Without too much trouble, I can get chains clean
enough that no dirt comes out in fresh solvent.

You might try solvents other than water in your ultrasonic cleaner.
Simple Green, citrus cleaner, auto parts cleaner, etc.

Ask yourself how mechanics get things like piston ring grooves perfectly
clean. With enough soaking, even the toughest carbon deposits and varnish
come right out of the tightest spots.

Quoted message said:

It would be interesting if most of our chain cleaning rituals turn out
to be mostly cosmetic, or if one method works better than another.

In one particularly dusty summer, I wore out a chain a month while
mountain biking. This probably translates to about 500 miles per chain,
1/4 their usual life. On my road bike, chains last 3-5000 miles because
they get regular maintenance. My mountain/commuter bike chains don't last
as long because they get ridden dirty more often.

Matt O.

Gotta wonder if this is in the 'too much trouble and $' catagory. The
rollers where they hit the chainrings and cogs are going to be clean,
just cuz they are metal on metal...and it is a bicyclke chain, in the
open, and it is going to get 'dirty' almost instantly, as soon as you
start to ride. Is this amount of attention for a $20, disposable item
worth it? Cold, not gonna ride so just wondering.

Quoted message said:

Matt O'Toole said:

carlfogel said:

On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 03:46:16 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"

>If you don't have much time to spend cleaning your bike, a chain cleaner
>might be the best way to go. Otherwise, you're better off removing the
>chain and cleaning it off the bike. I use a wide-mouth plastic bottle
>(like the type that "Vitamin Water" comes in), fill it about one-third
>with a citrus cleaner, and one third *hot* water (from a tea kettle or
>coffee machine) and dump the chain in. To be shaken, not stirred. You'll
>see the cleanest chain you imagined possible emerge after a few minutes
>of shaking it up.
>
>--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
>www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Dear Mike,

I recently acquired an ultrasonic cleaner that must have fallen off the
back of Santa's sleigh after he loaded up at Harbor Freight.

I'd read RBT posts about how an ultrasonic cleaner would get my chain
cleaner than I imagined possible, so I popped a filthy chain into it and
ran it for the maximum 8 minute cycle.

I was disappointed, since I'd been hoping to see dramatic results, with
lots of tiny bubbles and exciting clouds of grime swirling off the
chain. Apparently, the microscopic bubbles really are microscopic, and
the grime didn't swirl much.

I kept cycling the chain and pouring out filthy water and detergent off
and on all day. I lost track of how many 8 minute cycles were involved,
but it was more than a dozen.

The chain _looked_ clean, but every time I ran the cleaner again, the
water turned dirty.

I finally gave up, put the chain back on my bike, sprayed a little WD40
on it, and ran it through a paper towel--my, what nasty black marks!

Maybe, I thought, it was just picking up grime from my sprockets and
idler gears.

A few days later, I went through the whole business again, more than a
dozen 8 minute cleanings on a chain that wasn't all that dirty. This
time, I sprayed it with WD40 a few times and then dunked it in the
cleaner. Again, it looked awfully clean, but the water always ended up
dirty after another 8 minute cycle.

And when I sprayed the clean-looking chain with WD40 before putting it
on the sprockets and ran it through a clean paper towel, the same black
marks appeared.

I suspect that the ultrasonic cleaner (possibly underpowered?) doesn't
get at the only grime that really matters, namely the stuff inside the
pins and rollers.

I'm starting to wonder how well solvents do and whether it's actually
possible to clean the inside of a chain that's actually been oiled and
ridden a hundred miles.

If you'll recommend a brand of citrus cleaner, I'll try the wide-mouth
jar and shaking and then see what happens when I spray some WD40 on the
chain afterward and see what kind of paper towel results I get.

Carl,

It's possible your ultrasonic cleaner is too small, and maybe
underpowered. I had one that worked extremely well, but it was a larger
unit intended for automotive parts, etc. Most of the ones I see
advertised are intended for jewelry, dentures, etc.

Mike's technique works fine, and the stronger the solvent the better it
works. As he's found, heat helps too. To get a chain really clean, the
key is lots of fluid. This means either plenty of fluid changes until the
fluid runs clear, or a water based solvent like citrus degreaser and lots
of running water to rinse. Soaking well to begin with ensures everything
will be dissolved, and rinse away completely.

The problem with chain cleaners is that their fluid reservoirs are too
small. You'll never get a chain clean enough without changing
the fluid dozens of times. With today's detachable links there's no
reason to use a chain cleaner anyway. It's faster, easier, and a lot less
messy to remove the chain and put it in a jar with some solvent. So
do not waste your money on chain cleaners.

I've been using the auto parts cleaner that comes in a gallon paint can,
with a small parts bucket inside. Soak for 15-20 minutes, agitate
occasionally, then rinse clean with water. The dirt settles harmlessly to
the bottom of the can, and the fluid can be reused for decades. While the
chain is soaking, a dab of the solvent on a rag can be used to clean the
rest of the drivetrain.

Matt O.

Dear Matt,

I suspect that the ultrasonic doesn't work inside the pins and rollers
because that space is full of dirty oil.

If so, the microscopically bubbling water only works on the tiny edge
of the wide oil film between a pin and roller.

Similarly, I'm wondering if the solvent only works on the same edge of
the filthy oil, leaving the part that we want to clean largely
untouched.

It would be interesting if most of our chain cleaning rituals turn out
to be mostly cosmetic, or if one method works better than another.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

[email hidden] wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I recently acquired an ultrasonic cleaner that must have fallen off
the back of Santa's sleigh after he loaded up at Harbor Freight.

I'd read RBT posts about how an ultrasonic cleaner would get my chain
cleaner than I imagined possible, so I popped a filthy chain into it
and ran it for the maximum 8 minute cycle.

I was disappointed, since I'd been hoping to see dramatic results,
with lots of tiny bubbles and exciting clouds of grime swirling off
the chain. Apparently, the microscopic bubbles really are microscopic,
and the grime didn't swirl much.

Carl, ultrasonic cleaners are not for cleaning really filthy items. They
are for final cleaning. Try precleaning the chain using the method Mike
described, and scrubbing the chain with a brush.

Also, you should be using a cleaner chain lube like ProLink. The chain will
never get really dirty and thus will be easier to clean.

Also, you should try using a different solvent in the ultrasonic cleaner.

--
Mike DeMicco <[email hidden]>

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Gotta wonder if this is in the 'too much trouble and $' catagory. The
rollers where they hit the chainrings and cogs are going to be clean,
just cuz they are metal on metal...and it is a bicyclke chain, in the
open, and it is going to get 'dirty' almost instantly, as soon as you
start to ride. Is this amount of attention for a $20, disposable item
worth it? Cold, not gonna ride so just wondering.

I agree. Everyone who thinks he can clean the inside of a chain just by
shaking a bottle is mistaken IMO. If you want a shiny chain, just wipe
the outside clean and do that also before you relube. For the rest lube
regularly/often, measure the wear and replace the chain on time. That's it.

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu

[email hidden] wrote in news:4gf9o2lr8n4eofaq509j433sj7d012l3ll@
4ax.com:

Quoted message said:

I'm starting to wonder how well solvents do and whether it's actually
possible to clean the inside of a chain that's actually been oiled and
ridden a hundred miles.

This reminds me of the vacuum cleaner sales demonstrations: they always
show their great new vacuum is able to pick up dirt after your old
"inferior" vacuum has already "cleaned" the carpet. They *NEVER* do the
demonstration the other way around: use their new vacuum first, then see
if your old one will find dirt that the one being demo'ed left behind.

Try cleaning your chain with any number of methods. Then after it's
"clean" drop it in the ultrasonic. I believe that you will get another
cloud of dirt floating off the chain.

I use an ultrasonic for a "final" couple of passes of chain cleaning. I
never seem to get clear solvent as the end result, but then I don't worry
about it at that point. I simply give the chain a final pass with water
in the ultrasonic to clean out as much of the remaining solvent as I
think is "reasonable" and then hang the chain to dry before using Tri-
Flow as a lubricant.

Cheers,
David

[email hidden said:

"]On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 03:46:16 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"

Quoted message said:

If you don't have much time to spend cleaning your bike, a chain cleaner
might be the best way to go. Otherwise, you're better off removing the chain
and cleaning it off the bike. I use a wide-mouth plastic bottle (like the
type that "Vitamin Water" comes in), fill it about one-third with a citrus
cleaner, and one third *hot* water (from a tea kettle or coffee machine) and
dump the chain in. To be shaken, not stirred. You'll see the cleanest chain
you imagined possible emerge after a few minutes of shaking it up.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Dear Mike,

I recently acquired an ultrasonic cleaner that must have fallen off
the back of Santa's sleigh after he loaded up at Harbor Freight.

I'd read RBT posts about how an ultrasonic cleaner would get my chain
cleaner than I imagined possible, so I popped a filthy chain into it
and ran it for the maximum 8 minute cycle.

I was disappointed, since I'd been hoping to see dramatic results,
with lots of tiny bubbles and exciting clouds of grime swirling off
the chain. Apparently, the microscopic bubbles really are microscopic,
and the grime didn't swirl much.

I kept cycling the chain and pouring out filthy water and detergent
off and on all day. I lost track of how many 8 minute cycles were
involved, but it was more than a dozen.

The chain _looked_ clean, but every time I ran the cleaner again, the
water turned dirty.

I finally gave up, put the chain back on my bike, sprayed a little
WD40 on it, and ran it through a paper towel--my, what nasty black
marks!

Maybe, I thought, it was just picking up grime from my sprockets and
idler gears.

A few days later, I went through the whole business again, more than a
dozen 8 minute cleanings on a chain that wasn't all that dirty. This
time, I sprayed it with WD40 a few times and then dunked it in the
cleaner. Again, it looked awfully clean, but the water always ended up
dirty after another 8 minute cycle.

And when I sprayed the clean-looking chain with WD40 before putting it
on the sprockets and ran it through a clean paper towel, the same
black marks appeared.

I suspect that the ultrasonic cleaner (possibly underpowered?) doesn't
get at the only grime that really matters, namely the stuff inside the
pins and rollers.

I'm starting to wonder how well solvents do and whether it's actually
possible to clean the inside of a chain that's actually been oiled and
ridden a hundred miles.

If you'll recommend a brand of citrus cleaner, I'll try the wide-mouth
jar and shaking and then see what happens when I spray some WD40 on
the chain afterward and see what kind of paper towel results I get.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Carl
One element you may be missing is heat. I have an Omegasonics bench top ultasonic, and every chain and cogset on every bike I service goes through it. I use a mild alkylid solvent supplied by Omegasonics and keep the temp at between 80 and 90 degrees C(176-194 F).During my busiest season, I change the solvent once a week, and there is always a pile of sand and grit in the bottom, but even just before the change, cogs and chains come out bright and clean inside and out. (Because they are suspended in a mesh basket)
I have run filthy old worn out chains through it and pushed the pins out afterward to see how effective it is. The cleansing is nearly total, and if you leave it in long enough, it will even remove most of the rust.
When you remove it from the hot bath, a quick rinse under hot water and a shot of compressed air, and it dries almost instantly.
It has even freed up stuck pawls in freewheels. At first, I was a little hesitant to put freewheels in it, but after a test in which I put one through, then blew dry with compressed air, oiled, and then dissassembled to inspect, found nothing but clean internals and oil.
Dan Burkhart
www.boomerbicycle.ca