Campagnolo skeleton brakes

Quoted message said:

Speaking of brakes, based on the photos of Campy's skeleton brakes,
shouldn't the skeletoning have been in the vertical plane rather than
the horizontal? I mean, instead of it looking hollow from the front,
shouldn't it be hollow from the top? That way, the members (the
remaining aluminum) act as I-beams in the plane that they are stressed.
No? Just some thoughts...

no, they would be more susceptible to fatigue that way. in addition,
the pieces are forged, and forging with holes in that orientation would
be more problematic.

someone.com said:

Speaking of brakes, based on the photos of Campy's skeleton brakes,
shouldn't the skeletoning have been in the vertical plane rather
than the horizontal? I mean, instead of it looking hollow from the
front, shouldn't it be hollow from the top? That way, the members
(the remaining aluminum) act as I-beams in the plane that they are
stressed. No? Just some thoughts...

I beams have vertical webs with minimal thickness, their strength in
vertical bending being in their thick caps. Similarly the skeleton
brake has the caps of its vertically bending parts thick and most of
the web removed. The part of the brake that are stressed in both
directions are solid. That is the part between the anchor bolt and
the brake shoe. It's the levers that have been ghosted.

Just the same, I find this a ridiculous place to save a gram or two.

http://www.campagnolo.com/skeleton.php

# Campagnolo® brakes have always been able to combine exceptional
# braking performance with the industry’s highest levels of lightness
# and longevity.

Oh! Tell me about it. Delta brake? Neither good brake performance
or light weight. THis just shows what you can do in advertising. I
think they =call it "the big lie". Just say it with the right
conviction and brashness and it will be true.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Just the same, I find this a ridiculous place to save a gram or two.

Less air resistance too.

OK, I'm joking. I think it looks good which means it'll sell. This sport
seems to have the same number of equipment jocks that photography does.
In both cases, you need new to sell to the same folks over and over.

-paul

someone.com said:

Speaking of brakes, based on the photos of Campy's skeleton brakes,
shouldn't the skeletoning have been in the vertical plane rather
than the horizontal? I mean, instead of it looking hollow from the
front, shouldn't it be hollow from the top? That way, the members
(the remaining aluminum) act as I-beams in the plane that they are
stressed. No? Just some thoughts...

I beams have vertical webs with minimal thickness, their strength in
vertical bending being in their thick caps. Similarly the skeleton
brake has the caps of its vertically bending parts thick and most of
the web removed. The part of the brake that are stressed in both
directions are solid. That is the part between the anchor bolt and
the brake shoe. It's the levers that have been ghosted.

Just the same, I find this a ridiculous place to save a gram or two.

http://www.campagnolo.com/skeleton.php

# Campagnolo® brakes have always been able to combine exceptional
# braking performance with the industry’s highest levels of lightness
# and longevity.

Oh! Tell me about it. Delta brake? Neither good brake performance
or light weight. This just shows what you can do in advertising. I
think they call it "the big lie". Just say it with the right
conviction and brashness and it will be true.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

someone.com writes:

# Campagnolo® brakes have always been able to combine exceptional
# braking performance with the industry’s highest levels of lightness
# and longevity.

Oh! Tell me about it. Delta brake? Neither good brake performance
or light weight. THis just shows what you can do in advertising. I
think they =call it "the big lie". Just say it with the right
conviction and brashness and it will be true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetics

Quoted message said:

Speaking of brakes, based on the photos of Campy's skeleton brakes,
shouldn't the skeletoning have been in the vertical plane rather than
the horizontal? I mean, instead of it looking hollow from the front,
shouldn't it be hollow from the top? That way, the members (the
remaining aluminum) act as I-beams in the plane that they are stressed.
No? Just some thoughts...

'Shouldn't or should have' mean nuthin. How it looks onna bike and how
it implies it's lighter(lighter=better, right?) means everything.
having said that there have been no real improvments to cycling gear,
things that actually make riding 'better' for almost 2
decades..clipless, lever mounted click shifting...nothing much else
since.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Quoted message said:

Speaking of brakes, based on the photos of Campy's skeleton brakes,
shouldn't the skeletoning have been in the vertical plane rather than
the horizontal?

Quoted message said:

'Shouldn't or should have' mean nuthin. How it looks onna bike and how
it implies it's lighter(lighter=better, right?) means everything.

ACK, and BTW: is it right that Campagnolo started to use Torx-headed
screws on this brake? IMHO a really stupid idea, as no one carries the
tools for these in the saddlebag. Well, some Multitools do have a T25
for brake disk bolts, but all other sizes are basically unknown in
cycling so far.

Günther

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

'Shouldn't or should have' mean nuthin. How it looks onna bike and how
it implies it's lighter(lighter=better, right?) means everything.
having said that there have been no real improvments to cycling gear,
things that actually make riding 'better' for almost 2
decades..clipless, lever mounted click shifting...nothing much else
since.

Personally, I like the looks of the previous Record brakes better than
the Skeletons, but I suppose that's just me.

As for the issue of recent "real improvements", what about $90 carbon
fiber waterbottle cages? <LOL>

Seriously, I would agree - at least if we are talking about major
innovation. However, there have been some significant, but incremental
improvements such as much better performing index shifting. The early
index shifting was awful. My older bike has Suntour barend click shifters
that are permanently in the fiction mode setting, because I have no
trouble shifting, but no amount of adjustment could get them (or any
other click shifters of that era) to work in index mode - and that's with
a 7-speed cluster. On the other hand, the Campy ErgoPower on the new bike
works flawlessly despite the much higher precision required for the 10-
speed cassette.

I would add to your short list of improvements of the 1970's/80's the
move to more maintenance-free sealed bearings. (Our friend Mr. Gillies'
objections duly noted. <grin>😉

Cheers,
David

Günther Schwarz said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Quoted message said:

Speaking of brakes, based on the photos of Campy's skeleton brakes,
shouldn't the skeletoning have been in the vertical plane rather than
the horizontal?

Quoted message said:

'Shouldn't or should have' mean nuthin. How it looks onna bike and how
it implies it's lighter(lighter=better, right?) means everything.

ACK, and BTW: is it right that Campagnolo started to use Torx-headed
screws on this brake? IMHO a really stupid idea, as no one carries the
tools for these in the saddlebag. Well, some Multitools do have a T25
for brake disk bolts, but all other sizes are basically unknown in
cycling so far.

Günther

Slide a standard allen right in..something I discovered on the last set
I installed...Torx because the bolts are aluminum, soft.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Günther Schwarz wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ACK, and BTW: is it right that Campagnolo started to use Torx-headed
screws on this brake? IMHO a really stupid idea, as no one carries
the tools for these in the saddlebag.

Quoted message said:

Slide a standard allen right in..something I discovered on the last
set I installed...

Are you saying that you use an allen head driver on a Torx screw?

Quoted message said:

Torx because the bolts are aluminum, soft.

So they save a little weight and make field repairs more difficult or
even impossible. Maybe I should get a set of their old brakes as long
as they are still available. An order for a crankset with ISO spindle
is already on it's way.

Günther

In article <[email hidden]>,

Günther Schwarz said:

ACK, and BTW: is it right that Campagnolo started to use Torx-headed
screws on this brake? IMHO a really stupid idea, as no one carries the
tools for these in the saddlebag. Well, some Multitools do have a T25
for brake disk bolts, but all other sizes are basically unknown in
cycling so far.

Yep, found that out too.

I have no complaints as I find Torx has a more secure interface and less
likely to slip.
--

Günther Schwarz <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Are you saying that you use an allen head driver on a Torx screw?

Quoted message said:

Torx because the bolts are aluminum, soft.

So they save a little weight and make field repairs more difficult or
even impossible.

I definitely would not recommend using an allen wrench on a torx head,
especially if the bolt is aluminum. (Silly material for a bolt IMHO.)

Quoted message said:

Maybe I should get a set of their old brakes as long
as they are still available. An order for a crankset with ISO spindle
is already on it's way.

I don't see this as a major issue. Anyone that's not racing with full
support should carry enough tools to perform reasonable
repairs/adjustments on their own bike. The addition of a single torx
wrench is no big deal. In fact, the newer components have reduced the
number of tools required. Having said that, I still carry a multi-tool
mostly in order to "rescue" riders not willing to carry (and most likely
know how to use) their own tools.

Cheers,
David

Solvang Cyclist said:

Günther Schwarz <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Are you saying that you use an allen head driver on a Torx screw?

Quoted message said:

Torx because the bolts are aluminum, soft.

So they save a little weight and make field repairs more difficult or
even impossible.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe I should get a set of their old brakes as long
as they are still available. An order for a crankset with ISO spindle
is already on it's way.

I don't see this as a major issue. Anyone that's not racing with full
support should carry enough tools to perform reasonable
repairs/adjustments on their own bike. The addition of a single torx
wrench is no big deal.

Is it just a single one? The technical documentation is not very
informative on that point.

Quoted message said:

In fact, the newer components have reduced the number of tools
required.

That's right, and a good thing. I also would not mind if they decided to
replace all Allen heads with Torx ones. IIRC the patent has expired
which might explain why they started to use this system. But then I
want a nice and shiny Multitool with a big 'C' on it offered also. And
no more Allen heads on the bike. Carrying two sets of wrenches does not
make sense to me.

Quoted message said:

Having said that, I still carry a multi-tool
mostly in order to "rescue" riders not willing to carry (and most
likely know how to use) their own tools.

That's another point. My tools, spare tubes and chain links are mostly
used by overly weight concious riding buddies who rely on other people
carrying stuff. If one bikes needs Allen and the other Torx wrenches
things get more complicated without an obvious benefit - other than
using stupid alloy bolts. Titanium is more shiny and much nicer
anyway :-)

Günther

Quoted message said:

someone.com said:

Speaking of brakes, based on the photos of Campy's skeleton brakes,
shouldn't the skeletoning have been in the vertical plane rather
than the horizontal? I mean, instead of it looking hollow from the
front, shouldn't it be hollow from the top? That way, the members
(the remaining aluminum) act as I-beams in the plane that they are
stressed. No? Just some thoughts...

I beams have vertical webs with minimal thickness, their strength in
vertical bending being in their thick caps. Similarly the skeleton
brake has the caps of its vertically bending parts thick and most of
the web removed. The part of the brake that are stressed in both
directions are solid. That is the part between the anchor bolt and
the brake shoe. It's the levers that have been ghosted.

Just the same, I find this a ridiculous place to save a gram or two.

http://www.campagnolo.com/skeleton.php

# Campagnolo® brakes have always been able to combine exceptional
# braking performance with the industry's highest levels of lightness
# and longevity.

Oh! Tell me about it. Delta brake? Neither good brake performance

You keep saying that, Jobst, but 'tain't so. Properly set up Deltas are
marvelous.

Quoted message said:

or light weight. THis just shows what you can do in advertising. I
think they =call it "the big lie". Just say it with the right
conviction and brashness and it will be true.

Jobst Brandt

Ozark Bicycle snipes anonymously:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Speaking of brakes, based on the photos of Campy's skeleton
brakes, shouldn't the skeletoning have been in the vertical plane
rather than the horizontal? I mean, instead of it looking hollow
from the front, shouldn't it be hollow from the top? That way,
the members (the remaining aluminum) act as I-beams in the plane
that they are stressed. No? Just some thoughts...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I beams have vertical webs with minimal thickness, their strength
in vertical bending being in their thick caps. Similarly the
skeleton brake has the caps of its vertically bending parts thick
and most of the web removed. The part of the brake that are
stressed in both directions are solid. That is the part between
the anchor bolt and the brake shoe. It's the levers that have been
ghosted.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Just the same, I find this a ridiculous place to save a gram or
two.

http://www.campagnolo.com/skeleton.php

# Campagnolo® brakes have always been able to combine exceptional
# braking performance with the industry's highest levels of lightness
# and longevity.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oh! Tell me about it. Delta brake? Neither good brake
performance or light weight. This just shows what you can do in
advertising. I think they call it "the big lie". Just say it with
the right conviction and brashness and it will be true.

Quoted message said:

You keep saying that, Jobst, but 'tain't so. Properly set up Deltas
are marvelous.

You don't explain how you get rid of the hyperbolic function of the
internal linkage of this brake that makes it a non-linear device that
defies control where it is most needed. That's what is wrong with the
brake. Cars did not go to disk brakes to better dissipate energy, it
was non-linearity of drum brakes that killed them... the same as the
Delta.

Those who argue in favor of this brake are exposing themselves as
people who don't brake in hard cornering, ones who have little basis
on which to critique brake performance other than that one can stop
with the Delta. We also stopped with drum brakes on our cars.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Ozark Bicycle snipes anonymously:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Cars did not go to disk brakes to better dissipate energy, it
was non-linearity of drum brakes that killed them... the same as the
Delta.

Off-topic for this group, but what makes drum brakes non-linear? Is it
the "self-wrap servo" action of twin-leading shoe designs, "drum fade"
(hot drum expanding away from the pads) or something else?

Lack of self-adjustment and the self-wrap design did result in a
tendency for one of the front brakes to [censored] before the other,
especially if you had to brake suddenly. This seemed to me the biggest
single improvement that disks brought.

Günther Schwarz said:

Is it just a single one? The technical documentation is not very
informative on that point.

There are 3 places on the new skeleton brakes that take a Torx 25.

BR-RE223 Pad holders.
BR-RE222 Nut holding brake to frame, rear.
BR-RE227/327/427 Nut holding brake to frame, front.

http://www.campagnolo.com/pdf/spares07_B.pdf

Page 60.

I wish all allen bolts would be replaced by Torx bolts.

Ben C said:

Quoted message said:

Ozark Bicycle snipes anonymously:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Cars did not go to disk brakes to better dissipate energy, it
was non-linearity of drum brakes that killed them... the same as the
Delta.

Off-topic for this group, but what makes drum brakes non-linear? Is it
the "self-wrap servo" action of twin-leading shoe designs, "drum fade"
(hot drum expanding away from the pads) or something else?

Lack of self-adjustment and the self-wrap design did result in a
tendency for one of the front brakes to [censored] before the other,
especially if you had to brake suddenly. This seemed to me the biggest
single improvement that disks brought.

Self-adjusting drum brakes have been in common use since the middle of
the last century.

Quoted message said:

Ben C said:

Quoted message said:

Ozark Bicycle snipes anonymously:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Cars did not go to disk brakes to better dissipate energy, it
was non-linearity of drum brakes that killed them... the same as the
Delta.

Off-topic for this group, but what makes drum brakes non-linear? Is it
the "self-wrap servo" action of twin-leading shoe designs, "drum fade"
(hot drum expanding away from the pads) or something else?

Lack of self-adjustment and the self-wrap design did result in a
tendency for one of the front brakes to [censored] before the other,
especially if you had to brake suddenly. This seemed to me the biggest
single improvement that disks brought.

Self-adjusting drum brakes have been in common use since the middle of
the last century.

You are right, I was thinking of my own car with four manually adjusted
drums, but self-adjusters on the rear are common, and although I've
never seen one it's likely there were plenty of cars with self-adjusting
front drums as well.

Even so I doubt the adjustment provided by drum self-adjusters works as
well as a disk caliper.