fast clinchers

I wish I had the dolla billllllls to try them all...

How would you know?

None of 'em are faster. Get what you like. FWIW, I think you can maximize how much you get for your money by going custom, but that's just an opinion. I've two sets of wheels: my Stratus DV tubies; and a low profile custom set. The custom set is made w/ Alex Crostini 3.1/3.2 rims, 24f 2x and 28f 3x rear w/ CX-Rays, and White Industries H1 hubs. The set weighs 1380g on my scales and cost me right at $600 payolas. That price included having the hubs anodized black.

alienator said:

None of 'em are faster.

Beat me to it.

In order to make any noticable difference you need a deep rim--think 50+ mm--and even then it is a fairly small difference. The difference between a 30mm rim and a 17 - 20 mm U-shaped is extremely small. What is more, the reason why so many boutique wheels use 30MM rims is not aerodynamics. It is because when they reduce the number of spokes they need a more rigid rim to compensate. Aside from the Zipps, everything in the list is pretty much equal.

Most of the pre-built stuff is bought just for looks. On that basis you should get the Eurus. If you want to get the best durability and quality for the buck then get a pair of custom wheels built.

My vote went to the racing 1s over the Eurus because I think the racing 1 is a tiny bit lighter.

Either way both wheels use campy hubs which are just fantastic, and they are both tough and light.

Best value would have to go to the Neuvations, they have 85% of the performance of the other wheels but cost less than half.

If you are super high milage then customs are the best.

Mavic wheels have a [censored] bush in the cassette hub instead of a bearing, but they have good marketing.....

Bro Deal said:

Beat me to it.

In order to make any noticable difference you need a deep rim--think 50+ mm--and even then it is a fairly small difference. The difference between a 30mm rim and a 17 - 20 mm U-shaped is extremely small. What is more, the reason why so many boutique wheels use 30MM rims is not aerodynamics. It is because when they reduce the number of spokes they need a more rigid rim to compensate. Aside from the Zipps, everything in the list is pretty much equal.

Most of the pre-built stuff is bought just for looks. On that basis you should get the Eurus. If you want to get the best durability and quality for the buck then get a pair of custom wheels built.

Why aren't the Zipps equal? CSC Team issue is a DT Rim with a Zipp hub, they are a shallow section clincher which are probably rebadged RR1450.

As to Alienator, I know aerodynamics are superior, that is why i chose shallow section aluminium clinchers, they are basically all the exact same fundamental design.
I still have a hard time accepting that my R500s, which are flexy, heavy, with terrible hubs, will perform exactly the same as my full DT wheels. The difference can be felt, I swear. (mental thing probably)

Also. Who chose Ksyrium ES, they aren't a great wheel IMO

bobbyOCR said:

Why aren't the Zipps equal? CSC Team issue is a DT Rim with a Zipp hub, they are a shallow section clincher which are probably rebadged RR1450.

Ahh. I was thinking they were 404s or something similar. If they just have a shallow rim then with the Zipp hub they are below equal when compared to something like the Record quality hub in the Eurus.

Bro Deal said:

Ahh. I was thinking they were 404s or something similar. If they just have a shallow rim then with the Zipp hub they are below equal when compared to something like the Record quality hub in the Eurus.

Ah, Ok. I probably should make the "Shallow section aluminium clincher" clearer. The 404s would wipe away anything on the list

bobbyOCR said:

Why aren't the Zipps equal? CSC Team issue is a DT Rim with a Zipp hub, they are a shallow section clincher which are probably rebadged RR1450.

As to Alienator, I know aerodynamics are superior, that is why i chose shallow section aluminium clinchers, they are basically all the exact same fundamental design.
I still have a hard time accepting that my R500s, which are flexy, heavy, with terrible hubs, will perform exactly the same as my full DT wheels. The difference can be felt, I swear. (mental thing probably)

Also. Who chose Ksyrium ES, they aren't a great wheel IMO

Well, they won't perform exactly the same. There are, of course, differences in mechanical efficiency between hubs, but those differences are going to be very small. For instance, seal drag doesn't really increase with speed. Better hubs, of course, have better bearing layouts with better bearings, so they'll roll a bit better. Second, aero benefits don't just switch on like an impulse function. Aero considerations always have some effect, when in motion, but in some situations the aero benefits available are very small. Shallow rims are one such situation. A 30mm rim might be more aero than, say, a 20mm rim, but that difference will be so small as to be essentially negligible at the speeds at which bicycles typically travel. Spokes? Well spokes are complicated things to analyze. Some companies--Rolf and probably Bontrager--would have you believe that paired spokes are more aero, but it seems to me if that were the case, Zipp 404s would have paired spokes.

Anyway, strictly speaking the performance of one wheeset is very unlikely to be identical to that of another wheelset. However, the differences, are typically pretty small between wheels of a given type: shallow rims, deep rims, discs, etc. As an example, someone in a post at RBR didn't believe that a wheels moment of inertia--it's distribution of mass. Roughly high moment = high rim weight. Low moment = low rim weight (note: that's very roughly.)--had little effect on acceleration. So he went to Analytic Cycling and plugged in numbers. Going from memory (which might be impaired by my history of head injuries and the current level of Percocet circulating through my corpus) when he looked at wheels that were roughly 1 lb different in mass--and if I dismember correctly, the difference in moments of inertia was similarly large--the difference in acceleration was only a few tenths of a percent.

I know it's difficult to accept that seemingly large changes--weight, moment of inertia, etc--don't make similarly large changes, or at least similarly scaled changes, in performance. One of the things about science/engineering is that you often have to leave what you believe at the door. Believe me, I know. My PhD advisor, on one project, told me I didn't have to worry about one partiucular kind of error because the geometry of the test made it irrelevant. I didn't believe it. PhD candidates in my group who were further along didn't believe it. A post-doc working for our group didn't believe it. I did test after test and simulation after simulation to either prove to myself that my advisor was wrong and what I believed was right or that I was wrong. Well, after several whacks in the head with the experimental [censored] of reality, I finally accepted I was wrong. Einstein's greatest mistake, according to him, was believing that something just had to be rather than accepting what the science told him.

Excellent posting. I get your point now. I still feel the difference in stiffness and bearing quality, also the ovalized spokes, makes a difference. Not giant, but a difference. I guess all of the marketing companies have us in their trap believing lighter wheels make faster wheels. I had a different view on that initially, but your posting and persistence has changed my mind again. next purchase I will look at different qualities on a wheel.

bobbyOCR said:

Excellent posting. I get your point now. I still feel the difference in stiffness and bearing quality, also the ovalized spokes, makes a difference. Not giant, but a difference. I guess all of the marketing companies have us in their trap believing lighter wheels make faster wheels. I had a different view on that initially, but your posting and persistence has changed my mind again. next purchase I will look at different qualities on a wheel.

Quaility hubs and bearings are great to have because they maintain that super-smooth feeling when you spin the axle in your fingers just about forever, with no attention required. Performance really isn't an issue at all, since any decent hub thats properly adjusted will have insignificant drag.

Have to ask about your high-end DT hubs. Do these use press-in cartridge bearings or traditional cup and cone design? How is pre-load adjustment done on them, and is any routine maintenance recommended by DT? Thanks.

dhk2 said:

Quaility hubs and bearings are great to have because they maintain that super-smooth feeling when you spin the axle in your fingers just about forever, with no attention required. Performance really isn't an issue at all, since any decent hub thats properly adjusted will have insignificant drag.

Have to ask about your high-end DT hubs. Do these use press-in cartridge bearings or traditional cup and cone design? How is pre-load adjustment done on them, and is any routine maintenance recommended by DT? Thanks.

They are press in cartridge bearings. Cartridge bearings should not need preload. You aren't loading the bearings you are just stressing the races.

The preload you are thinking of invloves something like the headset, it locks the system together, while allowing the bearings to turn freely.

It has a set of snap in endcaps which seat in grooves on the axle. These stop the assembly from stressing the races of the bearings when the wuick release is tightened.

Thankfully there is a lack of maintenance needed, because the tools and special grease needed for the system are frightfully expensive

If any maintenance is needed, go to your LBS. 6 months and the wheels are as smooth and as true as the day I bought them.

bobbyOCR said:

They are press in cartridge bearings. Cartridge bearings should not need preload. You aren't loading the bearings you are just stressing the races.

The preload you are thinking of invloves something like the headset, it locks the system together, while allowing the bearings to turn freely.

It has a set of snap in endcaps which seat in grooves on the axle. These stop the assembly from stressing the races of the bearings when the wuick release is tightened.

Thankfully there is a lack of maintenance needed, because the tools and special grease needed for the system are frightfully expensive

If any maintenance is needed, go to your LBS. 6 months and the wheels are as smooth and as true as the day I bought them.

OK, thanks for the info. Sounds a lot like my Easton Circuit hubs, with the end caps loading the inner race of the bearings. Agree hubs should run at zero preload, but in the real world, this is very difficult to achieve without high precision machining or a design which allows for adjustment (like the "old-school" cup and cone hubs do). Easton/Velomax use a wave-spring in their high-end Ascent and Orion hubs which makes the preload self-adjusting, but have nothing similar on the Circuits.

On my Circuit front hubs, the preload was excessive when the bearings were seated, even before the skewer was clamped down. Since the cartridge standard bearings used aren't designed for any axial loading, the preload I had made for a rough feel, as well as more drag and wear than I liked. Changing to new bearings didn't help at all.

After 11K miles, finally decided to install the bearings with a .005 shim under one side, resulting in a just-barely perceptable amount of lateral play at the rim. Everything is smooth and low-drag now, and I'm a happy camper. Would bet you don't have this problem with your high-end DT swiss hubs...the tolerances should be perfect.

dhk2 said:

OK, thanks for the info. Sounds a lot like my Easton Circuit hubs, with the end caps loading the inner race of the bearings. Agree hubs should run at zero preload, but in the real world, this is very difficult to achieve without high precision machining or a design which allows for adjustment (like the "old-school" cup and cone hubs do). Easton/Velomax use a wave-spring in their high-end Ascent and Orion hubs which makes the preload self-adjusting, but have nothing similar on the Circuits.

On my Circuit front hubs, the preload was excessive when the bearings were seated, even before the skewer was clamped down. Since the cartridge standard bearings used aren't designed for any axial loading, the preload I had made for a rough feel, as well as more drag and wear than I liked. Changing to new bearings didn't help at all.

After 11K miles, finally decided to install the bearings with a .005 shim under one side, resulting in a just-barely perceptable amount of lateral play at the rim. Everything is smooth and low-drag now, and I'm a happy camper. Would bet you don't have this problem with your high-end DT swiss hubs...the tolerances should be perfect.

I bought the wheels to be bombproof. They are exactly that. I went for the 340 hub on the rear because it was reputed to be more durable, and it was $200 cheaper. They look quite plain but if youtake them aart they reek quality. There is absolutely no imperfections from machining and the design is simple yet very effective.

the axle seats in place as the end caps snap onto the ridges on the axle, it is very clever. It seems very low friction. The best part of all, they have a good number of spokes, 28/32 aerolites makes a good stiff wheel. (revolution on drive side rear)

I have a question. I right now can ride for two hours with 36 km/h average. That is with my Shimano WH-R550 wheels, which looks sort of the same as most wheels (if not all) in this poll. I'm looking to improve my aerodynamics a bit (mostly by body postion, but also by misc parts, as I've got this new bike I'm assebling),

How much you reckon the gain in speed would be if I went from a shallow section rim wheel set to a set of flexy but aero American Classic 420? I'm thinking less than 1 km/h.

As for the question in the poll, I think the speed will be about the same. What it boils down to, IMO, is that if you climb, obviously you want the lightest wheel. If you only do flats, get a wheel you absolutely trust 100% and that has the stiffness YOU want. If you want it ultra stiff, get an ultra stiff wheelset. If you want a more forgiving wheelset get a more flexing set. Apart from that what I want from a shallow section alu rim is that it's absolutely bombproof and stays true no matter the crazyness of the pot hol you just drove through and you can get home even if it looses a spoke.

My vote goes to ROL R28, as I've seen many reviews that calls it very stiff, reliable and it doesn't break and stays true (roadbikereviews.com).

I don't think the gain would be anything if you switched to CR420s. I should have included 350 sprints as well though. Your post is very good and I think you are quite correct, but stiffness is needed for climbing aswell.

WHO VOTED FOR KSYRIUMS so I can kill you. They aren't aero. Look at their spokes, they are flat faced and terrible in a crosswind. CX-Ray and Aerolites are the best ovalised not bladed spokes. And mentioned in many previous posts ksyriums are not stiff compared to other wheels. It does show how well mavics marketing works though.

BTW, is that 36km/h by yourself. If it is, get a better set of wheels.

bobbyOCR said:

BTW, is that 36km/h by yourself. If it is, get a better set of wheels.

If its 2hrs at 36kph by yourself on 550s...get your sponsor to buy the wheels for you!

bobbyOCR said:

I don't think the gain would be anything if you switched to CR420s. I should have included 350 sprints as well though. Your post is very good and I think you are quite correct, but stiffness is needed for climbing aswell.

...

BTW, is that 36km/h by yourself. If it is, get a better set of wheels.

Phill P said:

If its 2hrs at 36kph by yourself on 550s...get your sponsor to buy the wheels for you!

That was a 80 km run (alone) (And yes, it wasn't 36, but 35 point something, exagerating is so much better ... 🙂), almost completely flat roads and not many red lights . I'm on the rowing national team though, cycling is my alternative workout, which is why I can do that. I have 5.4 l VO2/min and managed to weigh in at 70,3 kg (normally I weigh about 74-76 kgs, though) at the national championships three weeks ago. I just picked up road cycling around february because I had gained too much weight (or fat, really :p)over the winter and I needed to compliment my rowing with something that I could do for a couple of hours a couple of times a week without getting too high intensity.

Anyways, agree that a stiff wheel is better for climbing than a more flexible wheel, but ultimately, climbing speed is almost (actually VERY close to) the inverse of your weight. Loose 1% of your weight and you'll go 1% faster or save 1 of your energy. For climbing weight is king.

I really like this thread and reading other peoples opinions about wheels. Perhaps you should have included in the wheel contest, if you mean, say for a crit, TT, mountains or where it would be the faster wheel.

To the inertia of wheel discussion, I don't think it is going to do much of a diffrence. Comparing the effort of accelerating 80 kg total of rider + bike to a speed to the effort you need to spin a free wheel by hand to the same speed (at the tyre surface), it is fairly obvious that the one effort is by far greater than the other.

I've been reading alot about wheels lately, at first I was looking for a set of Ksyriums, but you got me from that. Then I wanted as set of ROL wheels, but they were sold out. Now I either want American Classic 420 or Neuvation weels. Can't really decide between aero+flexy and durable+speed. (I don't have money, nor interest in having expensive wheels).

Thank you, for the interesting reading!

Strid said:

I've been reading alot about wheels lately, at first I was looking for a set of Ksyriums, but you got me from that. Then I wanted as set of ROL wheels, but they were sold out. Now I either want American Classic 420 or Neuvation weels. Can't really decide between aero+flexy and durable+speed. (I don't have money, nor interest in having expensive wheels).

Thank you, for the interesting reading!

CUSTOM BUILT. GET WHAT YOU WANT, EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT.

None of this taiwan crappy hub, dodgy rim no information about strength, can't fix them without a $60 proprietary spoke key wheels. Get customs.

36km/h, 80km, alone, r550s, testosterone imbalance maybe? EPO possibly? Take up cycling as a sporrt, get some real aero wheels and race, that is bloody quick.