Increasing FTP

Maybe once per week when fresh, add a 3 x 10min session and increase the power to 105% of your 20 minute target.

Basically, if you want to ride at a higher power, train at that higher power. Beware of training at your current FTP too much, that will only make you better at training at your current FTP!

obRee said:

Is there any difference in physiological benefits to doing these intervals in different time periods ie 4 x 15, 2 x 20, 3 x 20, 2 x 30, Which gives the best results ?

I don't have the answer as to the difference in physiological benefits between 4x15, 3x20, and 2x30. But I believe (with no scientific proof though), that mixing them is beneficial.

I particulary like alterning between long L4 and shorter L4 within the same week. And I also make big use of 1x60 as well (or 1x50 when I started way too fast :o ). My favorite combination at the moment, is 2x20 (or 2x25) followed (few days after) by 1x60. I find that 2x20 has a favorable impact on 1x60, and vice-versa.

obRee said:

Which gives the best results ?

Most likely the 3x30. 😉

Among the choices you listed, would you do all of them at the same power level, or would you do the 15-min intervals at a higher power level than the 30's? If you're doing them all at the same power, then I don't think there'd be much difference, if any. If you do them at different power levels, then I think a mix would be appropriate, and that mix should consider the demands of your target events, your strengths/weaknesses/goals, and at what point you are currently with your training program.

Spunout said:

Maybe once per week when fresh, add a 3 x 10min session and increase the power to 105% of your 20 minute target.

Basically, if you want to ride at a higher power, train at that higher power. Beware of training at your current FTP too much, that will only make you better at training at your current FTP!

Not sure about this logic - you do not have to train above FTP (or even at it) to improve FTP. Ask Rap about his training - most of the intervals are at 90% MMP for that duration.

L4 is ~91 - 105% FTP and is beneficial to raising FTP.

peterwright said:

L4 is ~91 - 105% FTP and is beneficial to raising FTP.

Uhh, hence my logic train at 105% and don't get stuck doing all of your L4 work at 91-100%.

peterwright said:

Not sure about this logic - you do not have to train above FTP (or even at it) to improve FTP. Ask Rap about his training - most of the intervals are at 90% MMP for that duration.

L4 is ~91 - 105% FTP and is beneficial to raising FTP.

My understanding of Spunout's statement (and I concur with him btw), is that for any targeted power/duration, it's often good to :
- Train slightly shorter duration at slightly higher power
and
- Train slightly longer duration at slightly lower power

This, no matter what the targeted duration and power are. This is independent of the fact that the targeted power/duration = 100% FTP

Applying this principle in a 'recursive' way leads to the belief that any power/duration combination is worth to be trained, as it helps improving any 'neighboring' power/duration target.

** edit **
Oupss sorry Spunout, I 'spoke' on your behalf and posted in the same time as you did.

Spunout said:

Uhh, hence my logic train at 105% and don't get stuck doing all of your L4 work at 91-100%.

My point is that it is not necessary (or even beneficial) to train at or above 100% FTP in order to raise threshold - that is why the L4 zone starts at 91%

SolarEnergy said:

My understanding of Spunout's statement (and I concur with him btw), is that for any targeted power/duration, it's often good to :
- Train slightly shorter duration at slightly higher power
and
- Train slightly longer duration at slightly lower power

This, no matter what the targeted duration and power are. This is independent of the fact that the targeted power/duration = 100% FTP

Applying this principle in a 'recursive' way leads to the belief that any power/duration combination is worth to be trained, as it help improving any 'neighboring' power/duration target.

** edit **
Oupss sorry Spunout, I 'spoke' on your behalf and posted in the same time as you did.

That is not how I read it - he appeared to be advocating the concept that if you want to improve FTP then you must train above it - in other words, training at sub threshold or at threshold level is not beneficial to increasing FTP - I disagree with this.

peterwright said:

That is not how I read it - he appeared to be advocating the concept that if you want to improve FTP then you must train above it - in other words, training at sub threshold or at threshold level is not beneficial to increasing FTP - I disagree with this.

Oupss sorry.. got lost in translation (once again 😄 ) I disagree too.

But I think my little training theory still applies to this case though (while being in total respect with your point of view).

If one wants to improve FTP (defined as being 60min MP), training at a higher power level (shorter duration) and training at a lower power level (longer duration) can be benefical.

Pratically speaking...

Training at a higher power level may help the rider to start his FTP effort at a 'naturally higher' self selected initial (confortable) power level. IOW, starting faster may feel easier.

Training at a lower power level may help the rider to finish his FTP effort more easily (at 100% FT).

I know it sounds riduculousely 'simplistic' but that's the way I see it.

SolarEnergy said:

Oupss sorry.. got lost in translation (once again 😄 ) I disagree too.

But I think my little training theory still applies to this case though (while being in total respect with your point of view).

If one wants to improve FTP (defined as being 60min MP), training at a higher power level (shorter duration) and training at a lower power level (longer duration) can be benefical.

Pratically speaking...

Training at a higher power level may help the rider to start his FTP effort at a 'naturally higher' self selected initial (confortable) power level. IOW, starting faster may feel easier.

Training at a lower power level may help the rider to finish his FTP effort more easily (at 100% FT).

I know it sounds riduculousely 'simplistic' but that's the way I see it.

Cool - sounds sensible to me

(BTW - I think you do preety well with the translation stuff 😉 )

RapDaddyo is a mutant, have you seen his training load? 😉 And a sample size of 1...

Anyways short of any scientific data, can we agree that you're not going to get faster by not riding faster?

Maybe there is some sort of backward effect, but I find (sorry about the n=1 comment) that I do not increase at any level by training below that level.

Spunout said:

Maybe there is some sort of backward effect, but I find (sorry about the n=1 comment) that I do not increase at any level by training below that level.

I disagree. I almost never ride at my max power for any duration unless I'm doing a Critical Power Curve performance test ride. I do all of my high-intensity work at ~90% of my MMP for that duration (as accurately reported by peterwright). Then, when I get around to doing a performance test (or some little flyweight gets my juices flowing on a climb), lo and behold, my MMP has increased. Magic!😄

Spunout said:

RapDaddyo is a mutant, have you seen his training load? 😉 And a sample size of 1...

Anyways short of any scientific data, can we agree that you're not going to get faster by not riding faster?

Maybe there is some sort of backward effect, but I find (sorry about the n=1 comment) that I do not increase at any level by training below that level.

I am pretty sure that the science disagrees with you here and that one does not have to train faster to ride faster. Why does L4, which is all about raising FTP begin at ~91% if that level elicits no benefit in this regard ?

RapDaddyo said:

I disagree. I almost never ride at my max power for any duration unless I'm doing a Critical Power Curve performance test ride. I do all of my high-intensity work at ~90% of my MMP for that duration (as accurately reported by peterwright). Then, when I get around to doing a performance test (or some little flyweight gets my juices flowing on a climb), lo and behold, my MMP has increased. Magic!😄

Not sure Spunout meant that one needs to train over 90% of MMP for his duration. Just than one needs to train at (whatever %, could be 90%) of MMP for shorter duration than the targeted one, which in turn will be faster pace than the same % of a longer duration.

but hey wait a minute. What em I, Spunout's lawer or what 😄

(BTW guys, I am just having a friendly chat here I don't mean to frame anyone. :o )

My initial impression of the 90% area of L4 work was more to do with longer TT work(>1 hour), like 50 mile TT's which is ~2hr power. More recently I have been doing more work at this level after some sound advice from RD with regard to training volume, and I prefer working at lower power for longer periods.

AndROOb said:

My initial impression of the 90% area of L4 work was more to do with longer TT work(>1 hour), like 50 mile TT's which is ~2hr power. More recently I have been doing more work at this level after some sound advice from RD with regard to training volume, and I prefer working at lower power for longer periods.

Glad to hear it's working out for you.😎

Spunout said:

Anyways short of any scientific data, can we agree that you're not going to get faster by not riding faster?

I do agree that you have to generate a stimulus for adaptation, which is what you're essentially saying. FT intensity is already enough of a departure from the norm for most people that there's sufficient stimulus all the way down to ~80% of that level, if the ride is long enough.

Then the question becomes : does L5 training helps boosting L4 performance?

SolarEnergy said:

Then the question becomes : does L5 training helps boosting L4 performance?

Without question.