Increasing FTP

frenchyge said:

Without question.

Sounds like we have an agreement.

... but please let's argue a bit more, it's somehow quiet on Power Training forum these days 🙂

What I would probably do if I were focused on increasing FTP would be to look at my historical data, see what kind of training load (first) and composition (second) elicited my biggest gains in FTP. Then I would set up a plan to try and mimic that load/composition, maybe with a few tweaks, rather than worrying too much about different flavors of vanilla.

Failing that, I'd probably try and do all kindsof level 4 workouts, just for variety's sake as much as anything. Baseline workouts are fine, but if you do (e.g.) 2x20 twice a week every week, you can put too much stock in a watt or two in either direction, rather than focusing on the act of just riding at threshold.

Sometimes more macroanalysis is better than a lot of microanalysis.

What are you training for? Increasing your FTP or a competition situation?

I think this is where some of our opinions differ in this discussion regarding training and the goal of the training.

If my objective were to increase FTP, I would put my primary focus on L4 (which you have done and are doing), with a secondary focus on L5 (which you appear to not be doing). I would probably divide my training time about 70/30 between L4/L5. The reason I would include L5 is for VO2MAX adaptation, which contributes to an increase in FTP as well. And, if my TT courses had some short climbs, I would include some L6 (AWC) work. In that case, I would probably divide my available training time about 60/25/15 between L4/L5/L6. As to durations of L4s, I would probably lean toward 4x15 or 3x20 most of the time rather than 2x30 because of the higher power I can sustain at 15min duration compared with 30min duration. I do find it useful for psychological reasons to do 30-60min L4s sometimes (e.g., at least once every couple of weeks). These longer L4s give me more confidence in my true 60min sustainable power for pacing strategy purposes.

Spunout said:

Anyways short of any scientific data, can we agree that you're not going to get faster by not riding faster?

I disagree, I have recently this past year trained easier & rode a slight bit slower and now my Im hammering, cruise speed is up & power is up & can hold it longer. I believe its from going a bit easier you can hold pace for a way longer period of time which builds muscle strength for longer periods of time and the quality is much better.

Lets say you are doing your L4s (2x20 @200watts) and your heart rate is on the ave of 150 (for arguments sake) do these for 2 months and all of a sudden your doing them at a HR of 135, this is a definit sign you are now stronger and should bump up the wattage. This model does work, this how I train, once HR drops on a regular basis for doing this given workout its time for me to up wattage.

I have done only L4 intervals @100-105% (2x20 & 3x20min) all year since january twice a week religeously and some L5 @115-120%, (5x4min)
thats 8 months worth and about 160 intervals later boy is it sweet.

P.S. I also would do 1 long ride on saturdays only, 4-5hr at L3 ave pace

SolarEnergy said:

... but please let's argue a bit more, it's somehow quiet on Power Training forum these days 🙂

Yeah. Is Masters Track Nationals this week, or something? 😉

Alright, we're suggesting that riding slower results in an aerobic adaptation with lower HR and the ability to ride at that power for longer periods.

But has your FTP increased? Or, are you only flattening your MMP curve out to the right?

Spunout said:

Alright, we're suggesting that riding slower results in an aerobic adaptation with lower HR and the ability to ride at that power for longer periods.

Slower than what? FTP takes a pretty concerted effort to maintain for more than a few minutes. Even .8xFTP is more vigorous than most people would average over a couple hours on a purely recreational ride. That's definitely focused training when you consider the level of activity that your body experiences the rest of the week. Forget the HR stuff, that's merely an indication or side effect.

Spunout said:

But has your FTP increased? Or, are you only flattening your MMP curve out to the right?

60 minutes is already out on the flat part of the curve, so raising the right side of the curve is effectively the same as raising FTP.

FTP is far enough out on the curve that it's pretty much a measure of the steady-state aerobic capacity of the muscles (while stroke volume will also adjust, circulation is not really limiting power at those durations). In reality, there are only so many things the muscle cells can do to adapt to the stress (more mitochondria, better lactate re-processing, etc.). IOW, the engine just gets bigger, and that will help 20-min power just like it helps 3-hr power.

Spunout said:

Alright, we're suggesting that riding slower results in an aerobic adaptation with lower HR and the ability to ride at that power for longer periods.

But has your FTP increased? Or, are you only flattening your MMP curve out to the right?

Yes FTP has increased, from a FTP of 215ish to now 240-245ish. I agree 100% with frenchyges previous reply. Its just a bummer 🙁 that I make slower gains compared to other guys like sillyoldtwit but what I learned in the past about myself is when the motor finally gets there its THERE :eek: consistantly all the time, I dont have sharp increases for short periods of time. So I'll have to take it as it comes.

I usually do 2x20 or 3x20 @230watts, its easy enough physically & mentally that I can do them no problem but hard enough to get the benefit. Lets face it 60min total is still 60min of quality work, I dont see the benifit in going right to the edge @240-245watts if its a mental strain making you dred them.

BIG QUESTION NOW: If I do them @230 verses at the edge @240-245 (105%)
how much less benefit will I be getting then if I did them 240-245 since they both fall in the same range (91-105%)

As frenchyges says FTP takes a pretty concerted effort to maintain for more than a few minutes. Even .8xFTP is more vigorous than most people would average over a couple hours on a purely recreational ride. That's definitely focused training when you consider the level of activity that your body experiences the rest of the week.

the engine just gets bigger, and that will help 20-min power just like it helps 3-hr power.

jeff828 said:

As frenchyges says FTP takes a pretty concerted effort to maintain for more than a few minutes.

Then my FTP is probably underestimated.

Cause most of the time, when I start an interval (20min long or longer), I am amazed at how ez it feels to ride 100% FT. Half of the time, I ride shorter ones (30min and less) over 100% FT, and save lower power (<100%) for the last reps.

I often do 60min L4 work, and have to stay disciplined if I want to start them under 100% FT

I should point out that developping FT has been my primary focus too for this year. Therefore, I planned those workouts in the best possible spots of my weekly programe, with relatively fresh legs when I really needed it. I don't block very often like most of you guys do.

SolarEnergy said:

Then my FTP is probably underestimated.

Mine too.

Spunout said:

Mine too.

The benefits of the Performance Manager is another good reason to make sure you have a pretty good handle on your current FTP. I've already made that mistake.😉

[quote="SolarEnergy"] Then my FTP is probably underestimated [QUOTE]
Now you've got me thinking as well maybe I've underestimated mine as well 😕

I do all my L4 and L5 efforts on the trainer and have always used CyclingPeaks average power to input data into the CP model to estimate various CP levels.

On the trainer, usually AP and NP are the same, but looking back over my data, there have been instances where they've differed by a 'reasonable' amount.

I (think) I recall a posting (RapDaddyo ?) that mentioned that only AP readings should be used for data on a trainer.

Any thoughts on this 😉

Alex Simmons said:

The benefits of the Performance Manager is another good reason to make sure you have a pretty good handle on your current FTP. I've already made that mistake.😉

I should add, what's probably more important is to be consistent with the method used to arrive at your FTP (presuming you are not way off in the first place). This has been my mistake.

MY02_STi said:

I do all my L4 and L5 efforts on the trainer and have always used CyclingPeaks average power to input data into the CP model to estimate various CP levels.

On the trainer, usually AP and NP are the same, but looking back over my data, there have been instances where they've differed by a 'reasonable' amount.

I (think) I recall a posting (RapDaddyo ?) that mentioned that only AP readings should be used for data on a trainer.

I think it depends on the purpose of using a number. If I am doing a "performance test" ride, I try to do them at constant power and I use AP rather than NP at all durations. This allows me to have a great deal of confidence in my CP Curve data. If I am doing a "course test" ride (which usually calls for a variable power pacing strategy), I would use NP as the basis of future efforts (even if the future effort employed a significantly different pacing strategy). In general, I have a great deal of confidence in NP and I have studied my rides in great detail where there was a large gap between AP and NP. But, there is a difference in my confidence in riding an AP effort at the same or higher NP and vice-versa. I have 100% confidence in riding an AP effort at the same or higher NP (as a variable power effort). Whereas I have only ~95% confidence in riding an NP effort at the same or higher AP (as a constant power effort).

obRee said:

I am currently working on increasing my FTP via L4 intervals 3 x per week. My training plan is as follows:
1st week 2 x 20min
2nd week 3 x 20min
3rd week 2 x 30 min
4th week retest
Is there any difference in physiological benefits to doing these intervals in different time periods ie 4 x 15, 2 x 20, 3 x 20, 2 x 30, Which gives the best results ?

It's a good plan but ,you may want to R&R on the 4 th week so you are fresh to push harder the next 2 to 3 weeks🙂 .If you dont recov. enought you wont have your legs rested to increase your FTP.To increase your FTP you need to push to :2x20' at (105%)= R 5'
Note: you can also do FTP x 40' t0 60' as long that you Power do not drop.

😎 Exemple :my FPT w/o 340 watts : 2x20'(105%)=R 5'- 2 weekly
'' 4x10'(watts 355-375)cad+5=R10' = 2x weekly

Tempo:z 3,1x60'-90' xwatts 260-320(76%-90%) & every 3' do a 10''(seconds) burts 610 watts (180%)for 10'' cad. over 100 rpm.:eek:

The Tempo will give you strong legs for your w/o😉 .
This is one week w/o every week are very hard has you want to push harder ,it may take 6 to 10 weeks to raise you FTP dont rush it ,work hard & harder ,have fun,:p Musher

SolarEnergy said:

Then my FTP is probably underestimated.

Don't get caught up in the semantics. I'm not saying that it's difficult to maintain for more than a few minutes, just that it's not something that I find myself doing without thinking (hence, a concerted effort). If I've been holding >FTP for more than 5 minutes on a typical training ride, then it's invariably as a result of intentionally "putting in an effort" or "taking a turn." At that level, the chatting stops, and at least for the guy at the front, we're getting down to business.

That's all I'm saying, but maybe your FTP is underestimated. 🙂

frenchyge said:

Don't get caught up in the semantics.

I knew you weren't going let me go away with that one 😉

You're saying that sight seeing riding rarely turns into L4 training with no self determined effort and concentration. I agree.