Proposal on doping

Dumbass said:

What if they went to a system of penalties designed to make dopers
testify against others. Make the penalties totally flexible, ranging
from no ban to a lifetime ban. The dole out the punishment based on
the level of cooperation that the convicted cyclist provides.

They could leave the current system in place except remove all the
fixed penalties and have a separate penalty phase. The penalty would
be based on cooperation in uncovering the system of doping. Failure
to cooperate could result in a lifetime ban.

Ratting is more immoral than doping.

Ron

Dumbass said:

What if they went to a system of penalties designed to make dopers
testify against others. Make the penalties totally flexible, ranging
from no ban to a lifetime ban. The dole out the punishment based on
the level of cooperation that the convicted cyclist provides.

They could leave the current system in place except remove all the
fixed penalties and have a separate penalty phase. The penalty would
be based on cooperation in uncovering the system of doping. Failure
to cooperate could result in a lifetime ban.

That's a great idea! Why don't we bring back Sen. Joe McCarthy from
the dead to run the whole thing.

In article <[email hidden]>,

RonSonic said:

Dumbass said:

What if they went to a system of penalties designed to make dopers
testify against others. Make the penalties totally flexible, ranging
from no ban to a lifetime ban. The dole out the punishment based on
the level of cooperation that the convicted cyclist provides.

They could leave the current system in place except remove all the
fixed penalties and have a separate penalty phase. The penalty would
be based on cooperation in uncovering the system of doping. Failure
to cooperate could result in a lifetime ban.

Ratting is more immoral than doping.

Ron

Ratting, aka "letting others get away with it" is a grossly underrated
virtue in our culture, except in those moments when it walks the earth
under the guise of "honor code" or some such.

The world could use a few more rats. The problem is that a system
designed to make dopers testify against others may be indistinguishable
from a system designed to make dopers lie about the doping of others.
The incentives are the same either way.

I'm not sure going from "incentives to cheat" to "incentives to lie" is
progress,

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Why don't we go to a system where (a) it's less disastrous to be
caught; (b) coaches and teammates are punished too, but not
disastrously either; (c) a far greater proportion of the field is
tested, with many more random selections.

Two year bans are fairly disastrous, and the life ban is so bad as to
make people completely paranoid. If the penalties were on the order
of (i) loss of event results one month prior, and a one month
suspension; (ii) add one month suspension for each subsequent offense.

Penalize all riders and the DS on a team at the event the same way for
the test result of one. If there are more than one on a team, treat
each one as a separate offense - two at the same time results in two
month ban for everyone. That ought to motivate the team to clean up
its act.

At the TdF now, there are only around 4 samples taken on a stage.
This is way too low If we go by the figure that ~4% of samples are
positive, then we should get 4% positive samples at the tour, which
means every rider needs to be pretty well ensured of being tested
sometime during the tour, and probably more than once. I think that
works out to about 20 tests per stage, but please correct. That is
only 5x the testing that is done now - it's not 100x or 500x.

-dB

Quoted message said:

What if they went to a system of penalties designed to make dopers
testify against others. Make the penalties totally flexible, ranging
from no ban to a lifetime ban. The dole out the punishment based on
the level of cooperation that the convicted cyclist provides.

They could leave the current system in place except remove all the
fixed penalties and have a separate penalty phase. The penalty would
be based on cooperation in uncovering the system of doping. Failure
to cooperate could result in a lifetime ban.

Ahhh life is SO simple for some of you out there.

Why? Because anyone who testified would never get a contract again,
never be allowed in a break, never be allowed to win a race, wouldn't
be allowed to start the bigger and better races, so the rider might get
away with a lesser suspension, but that would still be the end of
career.

dbrower said:

Penalize all riders and the DS on a team at the event

Now this might actually have something in it.

However lesser bans will just allow riders to keep pushing the limits,
if they get caught, oh well, it's only a month. Having the whole team
suffer is an interesting idea. One that just might be crazy enough to
work.

That of course assumes that there are never any mistakes made by the
testers etc, and that no one appeals. With appeals etc, it would be
the winter before anyone was banned, and so they would most likely all
serve their suspensions during the off season. Without appeals if they
were banned for a month straight up, the teams and rider would sue for
loss of wages etc etc and it would end up costing the UCI SO much money
it would never work.

DepartFictif a écrit :

Quoted message said:

dbrower said:

Penalize all riders and the DS on a team at the event

Now this might actually have something in it.

However lesser bans will just allow riders to keep pushing the limits,
if they get caught, oh well, it's only a month. Having the whole team
suffer is an interesting idea. One that just might be crazy enough to
work.

That of course assumes that there are never any mistakes made by the
testers etc, and that no one appeals. With appeals etc, it would be
the winter before anyone was banned, and so they would most likely all
serve their suspensions during the off season. Without appeals if they
were banned for a month straight up, the teams and rider would sue for
loss of wages etc etc and it would end up costing the UCI SO much money
it would never work.

Creative alternatives :

- on any grand tour, for a positive finding during the race, the tested
rider is penalized 30 minutes, all teammates 15 minutes, and the team
director sportif works along the traveled route picking up jetiisoned
gel packs, etc., until dinner has concluded.

- radios are confiscated, big financial penalties imposed on team and
rider for any rider concluding the dirty stage who doesn't complete the
tour, and in a sprint, positive riders must say "After you, sir" to
clean ones, and submit.

- UCI points are deducted from teams with dirty riders, replenishment of
food and drink from support vehicles is prohibited, and shorts and
jerseys may not carry any sponsor identification for the entire team,
when a rider is found to have cheated.

Or not.

in message <[email hidden]>,

dbrower (') said:

(c) a far greater proportion of the field is
tested, with many more random selections.

Yes, please.

It would be good if on a random day /every/ rider was tested. Apart from
anything else we'd get a lot more information about the biochemistry of
human bodies under stage race conditions.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; I put the 'sexy' in 'dyslexia'

"Dumbass" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What if they went to a system of penalties designed to make dopers
testify against others. Make the penalties totally flexible, ranging
from no ban to a lifetime ban. The dole out the punishment based on
the level of cooperation that the convicted cyclist provides.

They could leave the current system in place except remove all the
fixed penalties and have a separate penalty phase. The penalty would
be based on cooperation in uncovering the system of doping. Failure
to cooperate could result in a lifetime ban.

Why stop there, I say rendition to Syria ought to soften 'em up. Then
they'll be singing like canaries on bicycles.

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

RonSonic said:

Dumbass said:

What if they went to a system of penalties designed to make dopers
testify against others. Make the penalties totally flexible, ranging
from no ban to a lifetime ban. The dole out the punishment based on
the level of cooperation that the convicted cyclist provides.

They could leave the current system in place except remove all the
fixed penalties and have a separate penalty phase. The penalty would
be based on cooperation in uncovering the system of doping. Failure
to cooperate could result in a lifetime ban.

Ratting is more immoral than doping.

Ron

Ratting, aka "letting others get away with it" is a grossly underrated
virtue in our culture, except in those moments when it walks the earth
under the guise of "honor code" or some such.

Ratting only applies to ones partners.

Quoted message said:

The world could use a few more rats. The problem is that a system
designed to make dopers testify against others may be indistinguishable
from a system designed to make dopers lie about the doping of others.
The incentives are the same either way.

I'm not sure going from "incentives to cheat" to "incentives to lie" is
progress,

But with no incentive to cheat there wouldn't be occasion for the incentive to
lie.

Ron

DepartFictif said:

dbrower said:

Penalize all riders and the DS on a team at the event

Now this might actually have something in it.

However lesser bans will just allow riders to keep pushing the limits,
if they get caught, oh well, it's only a month. Having the whole team
suffer is an interesting idea. One that just might be crazy enough to
work.

That of course assumes that there are never any mistakes made by the
testers etc, and that no one appeals. With appeals etc, it would be
the winter before anyone was banned, and so they would most likely all
serve their suspensions during the off season. Without appeals if they
were banned for a month straight up, the teams and rider would sue for
loss of wages etc etc and it would end up costing the UCI SO much money
it would never work.

Here's what you do about appeals: Use only well established tests and standards
that have passed peer review and are performed by agencies and labs that have
met the utmost standards for security, discretion and reliability. Then there's
no grounds for review.

Ron

Quoted message said:

Dumbass said:

What if they went to a system of penalties designed to make dopers
testify against others. Make the penalties totally flexible, ranging
from no ban to a lifetime ban. The dole out the punishment based on
the level of cooperation that the convicted cyclist provides.

They could leave the current system in place except remove all the
fixed penalties and have a separate penalty phase. The penalty would
be based on cooperation in uncovering the system of doping. Failure
to cooperate could result in a lifetime ban.

That's a great idea! Why don't we bring back Sen. Joe McCarthy from
the dead to run the whole thing.

Heck, what I described happens now when doping become an issue in the
real court system. But in the sports courts, they don't use plea
bargans.

DepartFictif said:

Quoted message said:

What if they went to a system of penalties designed to make dopers
testify against others. Make the penalties totally flexible, ranging
from no ban to a lifetime ban. The dole out the punishment based on
the level of cooperation that the convicted cyclist provides.

They could leave the current system in place except remove all the
fixed penalties and have a separate penalty phase. The penalty would
be based on cooperation in uncovering the system of doping. Failure
to cooperate could result in a lifetime ban.

Ahhh life is SO simple for some of you out there.

Why? Because anyone who testified would never get a contract again,

The would certainly get contracts. The corporations are more
interested in stopping doping than any other party. There would be
some way to form teams that include these riders even if the sports
federation had to form the team.

Quoted message said:

never be allowed in a break, never be allowed to win a race,

I think we could end up with so many riders taking plea bargains that
the mob effect would not matter.

Quoted message said:

wouldn't be allowed to start the bigger and better races,

We would have to get rid of this system where multiple official bodies
dole out independent penalties. There would be only one penalty, the
one from the plea bargain.

Quoted message said:

so the rider might get away with a lesser suspension, but that would still be the end of
career.

Sandy said:

Creative alternatives :

- on any grand tour, for a positive finding during the race, the tested
rider is penalized 30 minutes, all teammates 15 minutes, and the team
director sportif works along the traveled route picking up jetiisoned
gel packs, etc., until dinner has concluded.

- radios are confiscated, big financial penalties imposed on team and
rider for any rider concluding the dirty stage who doesn't complete the
tour, and in a sprint, positive riders must say "After you, sir" to
clean ones, and submit.

- UCI points are deducted from teams with dirty riders, replenishment of
food and drink from support vehicles is prohibited, and shorts and
jerseys may not carry any sponsor identification for the entire team,
when a rider is found to have cheated.

Or not.

Let's just make "dirty rider" literal. On a positive finding,
the rider's shorts and jersey are marked (with a scarlet
"D" for Dopage, presumably) and he or she must ride the
remainder of the Tour wearing the same, unlaundered,
shorts and jersey. That dis-incentive should clean up the
sport pretty quick.

I guess we need a provision for positives in one day races
or the last stage of a stage race, etc. Perhaps it would be
simpler to issue penalties in terms of number of race days
rather than the remainder of the stage race - 10 race days in
dirty shorts for a minor infraction, 30 for an outrageous one
or a second offense. On rest days, the rider will be allowed
to lounge in cafes attempting to pick up podium girls, as
usual, but he must wear plaid pants and an "I'm with Stupid"
T-shirt.

Ben
RBR Judge and Jury

Quoted message said:

Heck, what I described happens now when doping become an issue in the
real court system. But in the sports courts, they don't use plea
bargans.

I agree with you that this happens. I think it also results in
innocent people being convicted by State suborned purjury. When a self
admitted criminal informs on someone else in order to reduce his
sentence, how much should his word be relied upon?

Same would apply to the bike world.

Quoted message said:

Sandy said:

Creative alternatives :

- on any grand tour, for a positive finding during the race, the tested
rider is penalized 30 minutes, all teammates 15 minutes, and the team
director sportif works along the traveled route picking up jetiisoned
gel packs, etc., until dinner has concluded.

- radios are confiscated, big financial penalties imposed on team and
rider for any rider concluding the dirty stage who doesn't complete the
tour, and in a sprint, positive riders must say "After you, sir" to
clean ones, and submit.

- UCI points are deducted from teams with dirty riders, replenishment of
food and drink from support vehicles is prohibited, and shorts and
jerseys may not carry any sponsor identification for the entire team,
when a rider is found to have cheated.

Or not.

Let's just make "dirty rider" literal. On a positive finding,
the rider's shorts and jersey are marked (with a scarlet
"D" for Dopage, presumably) and he or she must ride the
remainder of the Tour wearing the same, unlaundered,
shorts and jersey. That dis-incentive should clean up the
sport pretty quick.

I guess we need a provision for positives in one day races
or the last stage of a stage race, etc. Perhaps it would be
simpler to issue penalties in terms of number of race days
rather than the remainder of the stage race - 10 race days in
dirty shorts for a minor infraction, 30 for an outrageous one
or a second offense. On rest days, the rider will be allowed
to lounge in cafes attempting to pick up podium girls, as
usual, but he must wear plaid pants and an "I'm with Stupid"
T-shirt.

Maybe if a rider fails a doping control on a stage, they have to stand on
the podium with really ugly podium chicks. After the presentation, the
ugly podium chicks then would follow the riders who failed the doping
controls around, screaming about how just last night they said they loved
them. If the B sample comes back positive, the rider have to marry one of
them.

--
Bill Asher

William Asher schreef:

Quoted message said:

Maybe if a rider fails a doping control on a stage, they have to stand on
the podium with really ugly podium chicks. After the presentation, the
ugly podium chicks then would follow the riders who failed the doping
controls around, screaming about how just last night they said they loved
them. If the B sample comes back positive, the rider have to marry one of
them.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos.php?id=photos/2005/jan05/qatar/stage1/cycling-qatartour-50

--
E. Dronkert

In article <[email hidden]>,

Sandy said:

DepartFictif a écrit :

Quoted message said:

dbrower said:

Penalize all riders and the DS on a team at the event

Now this might actually have something in it.

However lesser bans will just allow riders to keep pushing the limits,
if they get caught, oh well, it's only a month. Having the whole team
suffer is an interesting idea. One that just might be crazy enough to
work.

That of course assumes that there are never any mistakes made by the
testers etc, and that no one appeals. With appeals etc, it would be
the winter before anyone was banned, and so they would most likely all
serve their suspensions during the off season. Without appeals if they
were banned for a month straight up, the teams and rider would sue for
loss of wages etc etc and it would end up costing the UCI SO much money
it would never work.

Creative alternatives :

- on any grand tour, for a positive finding during the race, the tested
rider is penalized 30 minutes, all teammates 15 minutes, and the team
director sportif works along the traveled route picking up jetiisoned
gel packs, etc., until dinner has concluded.

- radios are confiscated, big financial penalties imposed on team and
rider for any rider concluding the dirty stage who doesn't complete the
tour, and in a sprint, positive riders must say "After you, sir" to
clean ones, and submit.

- UCI points are deducted from teams with dirty riders, replenishment of
food and drink from support vehicles is prohibited, and shorts and
jerseys may not carry any sponsor identification for the entire team,
when a rider is found to have cheated.

Or not.

I can get behind this idea.

I'd like to point out something, though. Given the relative successes of
doping tests and police action at finding dopers, it appears we should
side with the cops.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Ewoud Dronkert said:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos.php?id=photos/2005/jan05/qatar/stage1
/cycling-qatartour-50

That is so unfair since everyone knows sprinters don't dope.

--
Bill Asher