Average guy

BILLYHOLMES said:

[font=Times New Roman]I can ride all day at 16.5 mph but I don’t seem to be able to raise my average above this level. I ride 100-150 miles per week on rolling terrain. My heart rate average is 150 for most of my rides with levels of 176 going up the hills and I think my max is 185 or so. I have tried intervals of 3x5mins with my heart rate at 172 but I am near death at this level, why can’t I keep this up for longer? Do I need to reduce the speed/heart rate for the intervals so they are more manageable and then increase over time? [/font]
[font=Times New Roman]I am 54 years old 5'8 and 175lbs (can't seem to lose any weight!)[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]Thanks to anyone who can help.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]Bill.[/font]

Bill,

Just a couple of thoughts:

1. If you are doing the 5 minute intervals at 172 HR, you are likely doing them too hard. Heart rate takes time to normalize to the effort.

2. 5 minute intervals are probably too short at this time. I would recommend stretching the time to 20 minutes or more.

Try this workout:

15 minute warm up
45 minutes Tempo
30 minute easy spin

Tempo pace, or zone 3, would be about 6 on a 10 point scale for perceived effort. I have heard it called ABP, Always Be Pushing. Your average heart rate would fall into 80 - 85% of your max for the whole interval. Don't go out too hard to get your heart rate up and then slow down when your heart rate gets too high. Keep a steady pace. If you can get by with recording your heart rate and checking it after your ride, so much the better...

This zone is very effective at building average power, which will translate to higher speed...

Try to work up the time over a couple of weeks to 60+ minutes in this zone.

Jim

[font=Times New Roman]Thanks for the reply.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]I find it interesting that if I ride as you say at 80-85% of my max (148-157bpm) that I will improve, but being stupid I always feel if it is not hurting it is not working! At this level I feel no real pain and I think (I will try tonight) I can manage one hour at this level right now. [/font]

[font=Times New Roman]I really do appreciate the help.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]Regards,[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]Bill.[/font]

BILLYHOLMES said:

[font=Times New Roman]Thanks for the reply.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]I find it interesting that if I ride as you say at 80-85% of my max (148-157bpm) that I will improve, but being stupid I always feel if it is not hurting it is not working! At this level I feel no real pain and I think (I will try tonight) I can manage one hour at this level right now. [/font]

[font=Times New Roman]I really do appreciate the help.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]Regards,[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]Bill.[/font]

Bill,

This effort will be just below the "burn" level. It usually takes about 30-ish minutes at this effort for my legs to start feeling it. It is a tolerable pain, though, and you should be able to hold the effort.

Remember, HR is only used as a guide. All that matters is whether you can hold the effort or not...

If you find it is too easy, push the effort a little more. The goal is to hold the highest *effort* possible for the whole interval, not to acheive a heart rate goal.

Your estimated max HR might be off. I am 40 and I have seen 206. I have held 190 for 30 minutes before...

Because of all the variables that can affect HR, I have stopped using it during training all together...

Jim

BILLYHOLMES said:

[font=Times New Roman]Thanks for the reply.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]I find it interesting that if I ride as you say at 80-85% of my max (148-157bpm) that I will improve, but being stupid I always feel if it is not hurting it is not working! At this level I feel no real pain and I think (I will try tonight) I can manage one hour at this level right now. [/font]

[font=Times New Roman]I really do appreciate the help.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]Regards,[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]Bill.[/font]

Most people initially believe that high-intensity efforts need to be near 100% efforts. Not true. If you can sustain the pace for an hour, that's too easy. If you can only sustain the effort for 5mins, that's too hard. As otb4evr suggested, find an effort you can sustain for about 20mins. That's a good place to start.

Thanks Jim I will try tonight. Just to be clear this is not TT pace but a level below were I am not suffering too much, for example if I wanted to go a little faster I could.
How often should I do this? On the days I don't, do I do my usual 30miles at 152bpm?
Thanks so much,
Bill.

Thank you Jim and RDO.
I am begining to understand. Tonight I will do the two 20min intervals at the level that is enough for the 20 mins.
I will report tomorrow!
Thanks Guys.
Bill.

BILLYHOLMES said:

Thanks Jim I will try tonight. Just to be clear this is not TT pace but a level below were I am not suffering too much, for example if I wanted to go a little faster I could.
How often should I do this? On the days I don't, do I do my usual 30miles at 152bpm?
Thanks so much,
Bill.

Bill,

I think you are getting a handle on this...

Just below TT pace with a little more to give if you had to...

This type of workout can be done several times a week, as it has a low physiological cost. They are harder mentally, though I think you will survive. 🙂

The 2x20 workout is usually done at a 1 hour TT pace, not a 20 minute TT pace. RDO likes to prescribe intervals at 90% of the maximum for that amount of time and I concur...

The great thing about these intervals is that they provide excellent base and will prepare you mentally and physically for the harder, shorter intervals...

If you have a chance, read through the "It's killing me..." thread. It is fantastic...

Jim

BILLYHOLMES said:

[font=Times New Roman]I can ride all day at 16.5 mph but I don’t seem to be able to raise my average above this level. I ride 100-150 miles per week on rolling terrain. My heart rate average is 150 for most of my rides with levels of 176 going up the hills and I think my max is 185 or so. I have tried intervals of 3x5mins with my heart rate at 172 but I am near death at this level, why can’t I keep this up for longer? Do I need to reduce the speed/heart rate for the intervals so they are more manageable and then increase over time? [/font]
[font=Times New Roman]I am 54 years old 5'8 and 175lbs (can't seem to lose any weight!)[/font]
[font=Times New Roman]Thanks to anyone who can help.[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]Bill.[/font]

Hi, to improuve your speed & power you may want to try TEMPO my favorite w/o ,you may start with "lowTempo z3 -cad 70/75 x 10' HR around 147 T0 158 " ,(pushing very hard on the pedals) then witch to "high tempo -cad 85 to 95 x 10' -same HR "= Rec.10' zone 2.repeat until you have 30' , repeate every day of week ,add 5' to your w/o (35'😉 the following week & the week after add a nother 5' (40'😉do that for a month. :eek: . It will make you stronger with more power to the pedal, then add some LT w/o & don't worrie about your speed for know 😉 .Tempo is the corner stone of all work out (w/o).Have fun & ride hard 🙂 . Musher

I rode tonight as follows:-

15 min warm up easy.

20 min at average HR166 average speed 20mph.

5 min recovery

20 min at average HR 165 average speed 19mph.

25 min warm down.

Although I managed this it was achieved at a perceived level of 8.5 on the pain scale. Am I pushing it too much or is more better? As I said earlier my max heart rate is 185 and I think this is true as I have only seem this once or twice through the red mist. My resting heart rate (if it is relevant) is low 40’s

I could really feel this workout it in my legs on the warm down which makes me smile. Do I give it a bash again tomorrow or just go on my usual 35 mile loop and wait for Sunday?

Thanks for taking the time chaps

Bill.

musher said:

Hi, to improuve your speed & power you may want to try TEMPO my favorite w/o ,you may start with "lowTempo z3 -cad 70/75 x 10' HR around 147 T0 158 " ,(pushing very hard on the pedals) then witch to "high tempo -cad 85 to 95 x 10' -same HR "= Rec.10' zone 2.repeat until you have 30' , repeate every day of week ,add 5' to your w/o (35'😉 the following week & the week after add a nother 5' (40'😉do that for a month. :eek: . It will make you stronger with more power to the pedal, then add some LT w/o & don't worrie about your speed for know 😉 .Tempo is the corner stone of all work out (w/o).Have fun & ride hard 🙂 . Musher

Sir,
Thanks for your input. Do you do this as well as usual long rides etc?
Bill.

BILLYHOLMES said:

I rode tonight as follows:-

15 min warm up easy.

20 min at average HR166 average speed 20mph.

5 min recovery

20 min at average HR 165 average speed 19mph.

25 min warm down.

Although I managed this it was achieved at a perceived level of 8.5 on the pain scale. Am I pushing it too much or is more better? As I said earlier my max heart rate is 185 and I think this is true as I have only seem this once or twice through the red mist. My resting heart rate (if it is relevant) is low 40’s

I could really feel this workout it in my legs on the warm down which makes me smile. Do I give it a bash again tomorrow or just go on my usual 35 mile loop and wait for Sunday?

Thanks for taking the time chaps

Bill.

Bill,

Congrats on nailing your first 2x20 workout... If it was too hard, you would not have been able to finish it... 😄

I think you should make the determination tomorrow on whether you want to do this workout again or an easier one. As you gain more fitness and resistance to fatigue, you should start nailing a couple of these a week.

Here is a suggestion: Try one of the Tempo workouts tomorrow that was prescribed by Musher or me and see how you feel. I would think 60 - 90 minutes total in a 3+ hour ride would do your soul some good...😉

I am a huge proponent of blocking workouts. This is where you do 2 - 3 hard days in a row, followed by 1 - 2 days off, then a moderate day. I usually wait until there is a little more base before I plan this way, though, so your mileage may vary...

Awesome Job...

Jim

Sir,

Thanks for the input. I am limited on time (aren’t we all) so I will do my 35 miles tomorrow and include 2 x 20 min bashes and see were that takes me.

Again thanks for the input I am very grateful for your advice.

Regards,

Bill.

you need to work out whether your max hr is really your max. Ride at 100bpm for a minute then ride at 110 bpm for a minute then 120 for a minute until you get to 170bpm from there raise your hr every 15 seconds by 5 beats. When you are absolutely stuffed do a sprint as hard as you can until you cant move your legs...add 3-5 beats and thats your max hr.

Do it on a W/T

Intresting thread with some great points, are you suggesting that an interval like Steadystates for twenty mins would be more beneficial to overall race fitness than perhaps five mins on full power and five mins recovery for an hour? I know that when i do short five min intervals at full power i persist so well cause i know its gonna end, but when i do steadystates it makes my [censored] twitch just thinking about them. The discomfort of a twenty min interval just on the egde of the burn is somewhat unpleasant. I have been experimenting with intervals for some time and would love to know what has worked for others. cheers

nath1 said:

Intresting thread with some great points, are you suggesting that an interval like Steadystates for twenty mins would be more beneficial to overall race fitness than perhaps five mins on full power and five mins recovery for an hour? I know that when i do short five min intervals at full power i persist so well cause i know its gonna end, but when i do steadystates it makes my [censored] twitch just thinking about them. The discomfort of a twenty min interval just on the egde of the burn is somewhat unpleasant. I have been experimenting with intervals for some time and would love to know what has worked for others. cheers

Yes, 20 minutes intervals are hard and of course 30 minute intervals are even harder. Not everyone can handle 20 min intervals, but as you can see in my "It's killing me but" thread, if you do them, your overall power (sustained speed on the bike will improve) Five minute intervals train a different energy system (VO2Max) These help you to attack a hill when you know you only have 5 mins or less to go to the top. You've done somewhat higher wattage in training than your FTP and held it for 5 minutes so you know you're not going to blow up in those last 5 minutes of sustained effort.

But think about it, if you're used to only turning on the power for 5 mins, if there's a sustained breakaway for longer you're not going to be able to hold on. Having said this, 5 minute intervals I believe help you raise your 20 minute interval wattage. (if you do 20 min intervals that is)

You asked what has worked for others, well, my FTP has increased from 130watts at the end of January this year to approaching 250Watts now.
I think this figure is a bit on the low side as the temp now is close on 100 degrees F and worse still for example, my ride in the mountains tomorrow will be in 84% humidity - which for me anyway is a killer. If I'm not producing 280Watts by October I will be surprised.

One further note. If you find 20 minute intervals so abhorrent, try lowering the intensity to say, 80/85% of your FT.

Hope this helps. TYSON 😉

BILLYHOLMES said:

Sir,

Thanks for the input. I am limited on time (aren’t we all) so I will do my 35 miles tomorrow and include 2 x 20 min bashes and see were that takes me.

Again thanks for the input I am very grateful for your advice.

Regards,

Bill.

Bill,

You bring up a great point...Time Limitation.

If one is time-limited, then 2x20s are usually a great workout.

I think you will see great improvement in 3 - 4 weeks.

Keep up the great work and let us know how you do...

I would be really interested in how your cruising speed at 150 hr comes along after 4 weeks of these...

Jim

nath1 said:

Intresting thread with some great points, are you suggesting that an interval like Steadystates for twenty mins would be more beneficial to overall race fitness than perhaps five mins on full power and five mins recovery for an hour? I know that when i do short five min intervals at full power i persist so well cause i know its gonna end, but when i do steadystates it makes my [censored] twitch just thinking about them. The discomfort of a twenty min interval just on the egde of the burn is somewhat unpleasant. I have been experimenting with intervals for some time and would love to know what has worked for others. cheers

Here is the way that I look at it...

VO2Max (3 - 6 minute) intervals raise your ceiling. You then need to fill that space that you just created. Steady State intervals help you do this.

As Tyson said, VO2Max intervals are not bad, they just work a different energy system. He had a great point about time vs. effort...

To be a strong racer, the main focus one needs to have is to build a high Hour-Power, this is what those of us that prescribe to wattage training know as FTP, Functional Threshold Power. There are many ways to train this, but it all comes down to "raising the roof" with VO2Max intervals, then filling the space with Threshold (8 - 30 minute) intervals.

To put an exclamation point on the fitness, one would then do AC (Anaerobic Capacity - 30 seconds to 2 minutes) intervals.

Also, if Threshold intervals hurt from the word "Go", you are doing them too hard.

Bill hit the nail on the head when he said his 20 minute intervals were 8.5 on the pain scale. This is approximately Threshold and he should be able to hold this effort, with the proper motivation, for 1 hour.

Jim

Thanks for that guys. Loads of info to go at. I have in fact been doing some intervals lately. Five mins at 380/400 and steadystates for fifteen mins at 330/340. What im going to do know is push up the time on the steady states to twenty mins or more for a few sessions. Do you lower your overall distance work when you are doing these so as not to overtrain or do you slot them into your weekly training? cheers

nath1 said:

Thanks for that guys. Loads of info to go at. I have in fact been doing some intervals lately. Five mins at 380/400 and steadystates for fifteen mins at 330/340. What im going to do know is push up the time on the steady states to twenty mins or more for a few sessions. Do you lower your overall distance work when you are doing these so as not to overtrain or do you slot them into your weekly training? cheers

What I would do would be to insert one of these Threshold workouts into your weekly schedule in place of one of your VO2Max workouts. Do this for a couple of weeks and see how it feels.

I would then replace one of your easy/moderate rides with a second Threshold workout for a couple of weeks.

Don't be afraid to experiment...

Jim