Average guy

dm69 said:

you need to work out whether your max hr is really your max. Ride at 100bpm for a minute then ride at 110 bpm for a minute then 120 for a minute until you get to 170bpm from there raise your hr every 15 seconds by 5 beats. When you are absolutely stuffed do a sprint as hard as you can until you cant move your legs...add 3-5 beats and thats your max hr.

Do it on a W/T

Now would I do his after an easy day or even a day off?

BILLYHOLMES said:

Sir,

Thanks for the input. I am limited on time (aren’t we all) so I will do my 35 miles tomorrow and include 2 x 20 min bashes and see were that takes me.

Again thanks for the input I am very grateful for your advice.

Regards,

Bill.

I did my 35-mile loop yesterday with 2x 20 min at 166 bpm. I feel quite tired today and I am not sure I should do them today but I will give it a go. Should I be doing these at least 4-5 times per week or more?

Because of the terrain here I have two choices of ride flat or hilly. If I keep doing the flat route because it is easier to control my 20min intervals will I start to lose it on the hills, or because of these intervals that will make me stronger, would I find that I might be better/same climbing? Sorry to ask so much but there is so much to learn!

Regards,

Bill.

[quote="BILLYHOLMES"]I did my 35-mile loop yesterday with 2x 20 min at 166 bpm. I feel quite tired today and I am not sure I should do them today but I will give it a go. Should I be doing these at least 4-5 times per week or more?

Because of the terrain here I have two choices of ride flat or hilly. If I keep doing the flat route because it is easier to control my 20min intervals will I start to lose it on the hills, or because of these intervals that will make me stronger, would I find that I might be better/same climbing? Sorry to ask so much but there is so much to learn!

Regards,

Bill.

So today, Sunday feeling tried I set out on my 35 mile loop with 2x 20mn intervals in my sights…. I managed only one with an average HR of 160 compared to 165 from yesterday and the day before. After 6 mins of the second one I gave up and carried on with my 35-mile loop with my HR only being capable of 140 bpm!

I think I have learned that I should listen to my body before putting it backon the rack.

That said I figure that I should do these intervals every other day or at least don’t try to string three of them together at this stage of the game, what do you think?

I am way on business for the next three days so perhaps this will give my body chance to catch up.

I have just noticed that I am replying to myself…. well my wife always says I am full of @#$%.

Regards,

Bill

[quote="BILLYHOLMES"]

BILLYHOLMES said:

I did my 35-mile loop yesterday with 2x 20 min at 166 bpm. I feel quite tired today and I am not sure I should do them today but I will give it a go. Should I be doing these at least 4-5 times per week or more?

Because of the terrain here I have two choices of ride flat or hilly. If I keep doing the flat route because it is easier to control my 20min intervals will I start to lose it on the hills, or because of these intervals that will make me stronger, would I find that I might be better/same climbing? Sorry to ask so much but there is so much to learn!

Regards,

Bill.

So today, Sunday feeling tried I set out on my 35 mile loop with 2x 20mn intervals in my sights…. I managed only one with an average HR of 160 compared to 165 from yesterday and the day before. After 6 mins of the second one I gave up and carried on with my 35-mile loop with my HR only being capable of 140 bpm!

I think I have learned that I should listen to my body before putting it backon the rack.

That said I figure that I should do these intervals every other day or at least don’t try to string three of them together at this stage of the game, what do you think?

I am way on business for the next three days so perhaps this will give my body chance to catch up.

I have just noticed that I am replying to myself…. well my wife always says I am full of @#$%.

Regards,

Bill

BILLYHOLMES said:

I did my 35-mile loop yesterday with 2x 20 min at 166 bpm. I feel quite tired today and I am not sure I should do them today but I will give it a go. Should I be doing these at least 4-5 times per week or more?

...

Regards,

Bill.

Bill,

I wanted to respond to a specific question asked in this post.

My thought is that 2 - 3 times per week will provide excellent results. Throw in 1 easy day and 1 - 2 moderate days and I think you will be amazed at the progress you will make...

When I say moderate days, drop 1 - 2 notches off the intensity you are doing for your 2x20 workouts and extend the time to 45 - 60 minutes...

This should be the Tempo zone...

Jim

BILLYHOLMES said:

Because of the terrain here I have two choices of ride flat or hilly. If I keep doing the flat route because it is easier to control my 20min intervals will I start to lose it on the hills, or because of these intervals that will make me stronger, would I find that I might be better/same climbing? Sorry to ask so much but there is so much to learn!

Regards,

Bill.

The terrain around here is very hilly. I've been planning to start some intervals 2x20 but not exactly sure what stretch to do them on. Kind of afraid I'll exhaust myself and then blow up on the climbs. If I hit a hill 18 minutes in to the interval can I just slowly spin up it(if thats all I have left in the tank) and still get the benefit of the interval training?

[quote="otb4evr"]Bill,

I wanted to respond to a specific question asked in this post.

My thought is that 2 - 3 times per week will provide excellent results. Throw in 1 easy day and 1 - 2 moderate days and I think you will be amazed at the progress you will make...

When I say moderate days, drop 1 - 2 notches off the intensity you are doing for your 2x20 workouts and extend the time to 45 - 60 minutes...

This should be the Tempo zone...

Jim,
Thanks so much for the advice, I feel I am moving forward at last.
Bill.

tdl123321 said:

The terrain around here is very hilly. I've been planning to start some intervals 2x20 but not exactly sure what stretch to do them on. Kind of afraid I'll exhaust myself and then blow up on the climbs. If I hit a hill 18 minutes in to the interval can I just slowly spin up it(if thats all I have left in the tank) and still get the benefit of the interval training?

You can do a couple of different things:

1. Spin up the hill
2. Keep your *effort* the same and complete the 20 minute interval
3. Start about 10 minutes out and do 10 minutes flat/10 minutes hill...
4. Save the hills for the VO2Max/AWC work... 😄

The whole purpose of these intervals is to build your Functional Threshold. As long as you keep this goal in mind, the minute details will fall into place.

Experiment and find what works for you...

Jim

tdl123321 said:

The terrain around here is very hilly. I've been planning to start some intervals 2x20 but not exactly sure what stretch to do them on. Kind of afraid I'll exhaust myself and then blow up on the climbs. If I hit a hill 18 minutes in to the interval can I just slowly spin up it(if thats all I have left in the tank) and still get the benefit of the interval training?

otb4evr got it right when he said you can do a number of different things if you keep the overall goal in mind. There's nothing "magic" about 20min L4 efforts. L4 efforts can be anthing from 10mins and longer at anything from 91%FTP and greater. There is a 3.5 mile 6% hill that I use for an L4 interval on one of my usual outdoor rides. When I first began using the hill for an L4 effort, it took me ~18mins to make the climb. It now takes me less than 14 mins to make the climb. But, they're still L4 efforts.

When doing intervals pay attention to your breathing and perceived exertion not your HRM heart rate is slow to respond to the intensity and you end up going much to hard.

BILLYHOLMES said:

Thank you Jim and RDO.
I am begining to understand. Tonight I will do the two 20min intervals at the level that is enough for the 20 mins.
I will report tomorrow!
Thanks Guys.
Bill.

Billy, listen to these guys, this actually works. 20min intervals 1-3 times, it feels easy but after you do 1 or 2 your legs will become fatigued. I am a 39yrs old, cat 3 racer who had a problem with power at longer durations (always went hard or for a couple minutes) & was having a hard time in the 3 field, then I started doing 2x20 or 3x20 since january (2x a week) and now its amazing the increase strength, cat 3 racing at ave of 25-27mph is no problem anymore. Wish i found this out years ago.

Most people believe if its not hurting and you dont come home from a ride toasted you didnt go hard enough, NOT SO, we shouldnt relate pain with progress, the 2x20s arent painful in the sense of leg burning anaerobic, but they work.

My program
210max HR
2x20min @210x80%-82%=HR 168-172

I do 2x20s at 230-240watts and HR falls in the 170-175 range, it might be a slight bit on the low side but I like that because I know I can recover from them & keeps my mind fresh & always wanting to do them.

I do these every week on tues & thurs

I also d 4x4min @Hr 185-189, thats about 88-90%
I also dont go until Im toast, I do them until the muscles just start to fail & just starts become hard physically & mentally, then I stop, once again it might be 1 or 2 short, but I able to recover & it keeps me mentally wanting to do them.

Gotta thank the guys on this forum for the advise.

jeff828 said:

Most people believe if its not hurting and you dont come home from a ride toasted you didnt go hard enough, NOT SO, we shouldnt relate pain with progress, the 2x20s arent painful in the sense of leg burning anaerobic, but they work.

Great point! This is the #1 misconception of training IMO. I actually think this applies all the way down to neuromuscular workouts. That's the only time I go 100%.😉

RapDaddyo said:

Great point! This is the #1 misconception of training IMO. I actually think this applies all the way down to neuromuscular workouts. That's the only time I go 100%.😉

Agree on the pain deal. Just pounding yourself into the ground every session isn't smart training, but the short route to injury, overtraining and slower performance.

And it seems there is no escaping the 20 minute intervals anywhere. First indoor row club session I attended last night, can you believe the drill was "2x20" intervals on the Ergs? They call them "pieces", not intervals, but it's the same. First one felt pretty easy, second one I had to drop the power output to finish.

jeff828 said:

I do 2x20s at 230-240watts

Are you saying that you're a Cat3 racer and that your 2x20s are done at 230-240 watts? I mean absolutely, positively no offense when I say this but isn't that a little low? I'm guessing that as a Cat3 racer you have an FTP of over 300 watts, don't you?

Or maybe you are a really lightweight guy--but at least around here (where almost all of the races are flat crits) it doesn't really matter how light you are.

--Steve

ZimboNC said:

Are you saying that you're a Cat3 racer and that your 2x20s are done at 230-240 watts? I mean absolutely, positively no offense when I say this but isn't that a little low? I'm guessing that as a Cat3 racer you have an FTP of over 300 watts, don't you?

Or maybe you are a really lightweight guy--but at least around here (where almost all of the races are flat crits) it doesn't really matter how light you are.

--Steve

No offense taken, I'll admit my FTP is pitiful, Im working on that, Im 5'5, 160, sprinter build. Most cat 3s are about 300watts from what I can gather. IMO If your riding off the front or right on the front for any period of time Yes you will need at least 300watts, but the guy in the pack doesn't need 300watts to get pulled along in the draft at the same speed.

For example take the TDF Time Trial.
These guys put out about 400watts at 30mph by themselves.
Now when they are in the middle of the pack/draft going 30mph they don't need to put out 400watts to stay there, the front guys setting pace are.

See link/pic below
http://www.srmdataserver.de/tele/science/telemetry/races.php

Tour of Germany stage 1
Sven Teutenberg averaged 41k an hour for almost 5 hours with only an average power of 213watts

Remmert Wielinga averaged 40k an hour for over 5 hours with only an average power of 223watts

My FTP is pretty low but I have been racing for years so I gained experience when I didn't have power, to get through/hang on to the pack, I had to learn how to conserve as much as possible. I learned how to anticipate when the pack is going to accelerate so I don't waste as much energy as the guy not paying attention and has to drill it @400watts, I make sure I'm sheltered from the wind on each stretch of road, which is if your not on the sheltered side you have to put out more watts to hold position, when cornering I always take the outside line, I keep most of my momentum so I don't have to accelerate as hard as the guys on the inside that slow and punch it out of the corners, I also don't punch it out of the corner, I stay calm and gradually accelerate, the packs not going anywhere & they only surge for a period of time before it slows. So I think I found a way to manage my limited power more efficiently & now I'm getting a little strong it paying off.

Did you race the charlotte colesium race a couple weeks ago? assuming your from north carolina. I did the cat 2-3 and had no problem BUT staying in fron I needed 300+watts.

[quote="BILLYHOLMES"]

otb4evr said:

Bill,

I wanted to respond to a specific question asked in this post.

My thought is that 2 - 3 times per week will provide excellent results. Throw in 1 easy day and 1 - 2 moderate days and I think you will be amazed at the progress you will make...

When I say moderate days, drop 1 - 2 notches off the intensity you are doing for your 2x20 workouts and extend the time to 45 - 60 minutes...

This should be the Tempo zone...

Jim,
Thanks so much for the advice, I feel I am moving forward at last.
Bill.

jeff828 said:

Did you race the charlotte colesium race a couple weeks ago? assuming your from north carolina. I did the cat 2-3 and had no problem BUT staying in fron I needed 300+watts.

First of all, what a great post! You have really helped reiterate that wattage is no substitute for experience. I'm really looking forward to getting more race experience. My focus this year (my first year of cycling) has been simply to improve generally and prepare for three century rides. Two are done (Cactus Hugger in Utah, Assault on Mt Mitchell in South Carolina) and the other is in a few weeks (the Bridge-to-Bridge ride in North Carolina). I've done some interval and sprint work along the way but preparing for crits hasn't been my focus by any stretch.

I am 6'0", weigh 163 lbs and can hold 320 watts for 20 minutes and 235 watts for 5 hours. But, I know that those numbers don't mean jack [censored] in crits. In fact, in the Cat 4/5 Salisbury Criterium--the only criterium I've entered, which I did just for the hell of it to see what would happen--I was absolutely shelled. It was over within the first 200 yards. I lined up late and so wasn't up near the front, got caught off guard at the start and found myself 4th from the last in a group of 75 or so riders even before the first turn. All of the fast guys (off of whom I might draft) were long gone so I spent about 20 minutes riding all alone before I had a minor mechanical issue and pulled out.

From what everyone had told me, I knew I was going to get dropped during the first crit but it was still humbling. Motivational to be sure, but humbling nonetheless. Since there aren't very many road races around here as far as I can tell, this next season I'm going focus on getting good at crits. I'm going to win a Cat5 crit next year or break my collar bone trying!!

--Steve

jeff828 said:

Billy, listen to these guys, this actually works. 20min intervals 1-3 times, it feels easy but after you do 1 or 2 your legs will become fatigued. I am a 39yrs old, cat 3 racer who had a problem with power at longer durations (always went hard or for a couple minutes) & was having a hard time in the 3 field, then I started doing 2x20 or 3x20 since january (2x a week) and now its amazing the increase strength, cat 3 racing at ave of 25-27mph is no problem anymore. Wish i found this out years ago.

Most people believe if its not hurting and you dont come home from a ride toasted you didnt go hard enough, NOT SO, we shouldnt relate pain with progress, the 2x20s arent painful in the sense of leg burning anaerobic, but they work.

My program
210max HR
2x20min @210x80%-82%=HR 168-172

I do 2x20s at 230-240watts and HR falls in the 170-175 range, it might be a slight bit on the low side but I like that because I know I can recover from them & keeps my mind fresh & always wanting to do them.

I do these every week on tues & thurs

I also d 4x4min @Hr 185-189, thats about 88-90%
I also dont go until Im toast, I do them until the muscles just start to fail & just starts become hard physically & mentally, then I stop, once again it might be 1 or 2 short, but I able to recover & it keeps me mentally wanting to do them.

Gotta thank the guys on this forum for the advise.

I am just loving this, I feel I have struck gold with you guys. Thanks for the input .. it will be devoured. I am back from my business trip on Wednesday night… and will be giving it hell on Thursday.

Bill.

ZimboNC said:

I'm going to win a Cat5 crit next year or break my collar bone trying!!

Build up the size of your matchbook and you'll do fine. Granted, you'll need to learn some race tactics and work on your sprint before you win one, but a big matchbook will get you to the finish with the lead group.

ZimboNC said:

First of all, what a great post! You have really helped reiterate that wattage is no substitute for experience. I'm really looking forward to getting more race experience. My focus this year (my first year of cycling) has been simply to improve generally and prepare for three century rides. Two are done (Cactus Hugger in Utah, Assault on Mt Mitchell in South Carolina) and the other is in a few weeks (the Bridge-to-Bridge ride in North Carolina). I've done some interval and sprint work along the way but preparing for crits hasn't been my focus by any stretch.

I am 6'0", weigh 163 lbs and can hold 320 watts for 20 minutes and 235 watts for 5 hours. But, I know that those numbers don't mean jack [censored] in crits. In fact, in the Cat 4/5 Salisbury Criterium--the only criterium I've entered, which I did just for the hell of it to see what would happen--I was absolutely shelled. It was over within the first 200 yards. I lined up late and so wasn't up near the front, got caught off guard at the start and found myself 4th from the last in a group of 75 or so riders even before the first turn. All of the fast guys (off of whom I might draft) were long gone so I spent about 20 minutes riding all alone before I had a minor mechanical issue and pulled out.

From what everyone had told me, I knew I was going to get dropped during the first crit but it was still humbling. Motivational to be sure, but humbling nonetheless. Since there aren't very many road races around here as far as I can tell, this next season I'm going focus on getting good at crits. I'm going to win a Cat5 crit next year or break my collar bone trying!!

--Steve

Remember the strongest guy doesn't always win.
I wish I had your 320watt 20min threshold, I can only work towards it. A crit race is a WHOLE different ANIMAL of racing compared to road races or centuries.

In crits you need a real good warm up, I mean sweating when you come to the line ready to go hard from the start, your body cant warm up during a crit race like you can do in a RR or Century, also start closer to the front, because closing closing gaps cost energy, having to slow way down in corners & punching it out of the corner cost energy, being behind sketchy riders cost you tense nervous energy.

My advice is just keep doing crits to get use to them, you will be able to do it, remember most cat 4,3,2,1s have been in this situation when they first started, persevere. Maybe do crits that are only 4 corners for now, flat, not technical 6 corner or have a hill in them. Less than 1k courses are real hard even when they are flat, pick courses that are 3/4mi or 1mi long, they still consider this a crit, pick courses that have long straight-aways.

Keep up the good work!