Lactic acid, Muscle pain question

Pernicious lactic acid? I dunno, but I get the same thing happening to
me. My muscles can hurt for days on end, even weeks sometimes, until I get back into
working them out.

DaKitty said:

Why do the muscles always hurt more 2 days after exercise?

And, if I don't take a day off, they never get to that level of pain. If I do take a day off, I'm
hating it. So, on a day off, I do E-Z 1000 just to move around some. That seems to keep the most
of the pain away.

Anyone know more details of the process, or a few buzzwords where I can read about it?

Thanks 🙂

Hi Kitty,

Just a question in relation to what you write.

Are you really careful about relaxing and "shutting down" properly at the end of your sessions? For
example...if I swim X hundred meters during a session, I always make sure that 10% of that distance
at the end is just extremely slow swimming at very low speed just to get the muscles moving and
allowing the body to get the acid out of my muscles before I go up from the pool.

Before I go up I also spend about five to ten minutes streching the shoulder and arm muscles. Never
end a session with an acid heavy part and then go up. Then your muscles WILL hurt for two days.

Might be worth giving this a try...

Best regards,

Fedde

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:PKogb.15250$gi2.1633@fed1read01...

Quoted message said:

Why do the muscles always hurt more 2 days after exercise?

And, if I don't take a day off, they never get to that level of pain. If I do take a day off, I'm
hating it. So, on a day off, I do E-Z 1000 just to move around some. That seems to

keep

Quoted message said:

the most of the pain away.

Anyone know more details of the process, or a few buzzwords where I can

read

Quoted message said:

about it?

Thanks 🙂

DaKitty said:

Why do the muscles always hurt more 2 days after exercise?

This only happens to me when I have not exercised a particular muscle or group for a long time, a
week or more, for example, and then only when I am doing strength exercises I haven't done for
awhile, not swimming.

Quoted message said:

And, if I don't take a day off, they never get to that level of pain. If I do take a day off, I'm
hating it. So, on a day off, I do E-Z 1000 just to move around some. That seems to keep the most
of the pain away.

Anyone know more details of the process, or a few buzzwords where I can read about it?

I think you are (a) not drinking enough water, (b) not cooling down properly after swimming, and (c)
maybe not doing enough distance daily.

You don't have rheumatoid arthritis or something, do you?

martin

DaKitty said:

Why do the muscles always hurt more 2 days after exercise?

Not lactic acid, that happens directly during exercise and wears off quickly. The 2nd day pains are
caused by micro-tearing of the muscle fibers. This happens when the muscle fibers are not completely
synchronised in their contractions. With training, the muscle *learns* and the pains stop.

Quoted message said:

And, if I don't take a day off, they never get to that level of pain. If I do take a day off, I'm
hating it. So, on a day off, I do E-Z 1000 just to move around some. That seems to keep the most of
the pain away.

Probably the next days exercise helps the bloodstream clear away the debris in the capillaries.

Oh, I'm on a coached team, the coach wouldn't let us even get out of the water without a proper
warmdown. And yes, before the workout we have organized 10-15 min stretching routine and a warm-up.

I suffer the most when I take a day off. If I keeps swimming every day, I never get as sore. many
times instead of a day off, I come to the workout, and do some really easy work, just to loosen up
the muscles, cause I don't like getting stiff and sore.

So, per say, I don't have a big problem with getting sore, I was trying to remember and understand
the physiological or chemical process that happens when you do get more sore on a day off.

"Fedde Engler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi Kitty,

Just a question in relation to what you write.

Are you really careful about relaxing and "shutting down" properly at the end of your sessions?
For example...if I swim X hundred meters during a

session,

Quoted message said:

I always make sure that 10% of that distance at the end is just extremely slow swimming at very
low speed just to get the muscles moving and allowing the body to get the acid out of my muscles
before I go up from the pool.

Before I go up I also spend about five to ten minutes streching the

shoulder

Quoted message said:

and arm muscles. Never end a session with an acid heavy part and then go up. Then your muscles
WILL hurt for two days.

Might be worth giving this a try...

Best regards,

Fedde

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:PKogb.15250$gi2.1633@fed1read01...

Quoted message said:

Why do the muscles always hurt more 2 days after exercise?

And, if I don't take a day off, they never get to that level of pain. If I do take a day off,
I'm hating it. So, on a day off, I do E-Z 1000 just to move around some. That seems to

keep

Quoted message said:

the most of the pain away.

Anyone know more details of the process, or a few buzzwords where I can

read

Quoted message said:

about it?

Thanks 🙂

Helgi Briem said:

DaKitty said:

Why do the muscles always hurt more 2 days after exercise?

Not lactic acid, that happens directly during exercise and wears off quickly.

Agreed. It is a common myth that lactic acid causes muscle pain. As stated below it is
muscles tears/damage etc that causes these pains. Generally the greater the pain the more
damage that has been done. I can't remember 100% on the 2 day theory. I beleive it's
something to do with healing. I.E. during the healing phase is when you actually feel the
pain. Similar to a bruise. When you first get hit it hurts. After the initial pain of the
strike goes away it doesn't hurt for a whiel until it starts to swell/heal. I'll have to
look it up again but I think it has something to do with the swelling and healing cycle that
causes the pain

Quoted message said:

The 2nd day pains are caused by micro-tearing of the muscle fibers. This happens when the muscle
fibers are not completely synchronised in their contractions. With training, the muscle *learns*
and the pains stop.

Also happens during eccentric contractions. Muscles lengthing under load. Down hill running
is know for this as well as lifting weights, during the lowering of the weight.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And, if I don't take a day off, they never get to that level of pain. If I do take a day off, I'm
hating it. So, on a day off, I do E-Z 1000 just to move around some. That seems to keep the most
of the pain away.

Probably the next days exercise helps the bloodstream clear away the debris in the capillaries.

I think this may be a good explanation as the new flow of blood will probably reduce some
swelling. But that woudl be just a guess on my part.

~Matt

"M.W. Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

DaKitty said:

Why do the muscles always hurt more 2 days after exercise?

This only happens to me when I have not exercised a particular muscle or

group

Quoted message said:

for a long time, a week or more, for example, and then only when I am

doing

Quoted message said:

strength exercises I haven't done for awhile, not swimming.

well, I'm in full on training, constantly pushing it, so my muscles are always getting challenged.
Well, most days. You have to keep in mind that I'm only about 3 months into training, starting from
zero, so my muscles are nowhere near the optimum development. I will probably be working on building
up strength this whole year, and then some.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And, if I don't take a day off, they never get to that level of pain. If I do take a day off,
I'm hating it. So, on a day off, I do E-Z 1000 just to move around some. That seems to

keep

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the most of the pain away.

Anyone know more details of the process, or a few buzzwords where I can

read

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about it?

I think you are (a) not drinking enough water, (b) not cooling down

properly

Quoted message said:

after swimming, and (c) maybe not doing enough distance daily.

I drink at least gallon of water a day (I happen to like water), swim between 2500 and 3000m every
day, and the coach doesn't even let us out of the water without a warmdown.

Quoted message said:

You don't have rheumatoid arthritis or something, do you?

I have early arthritis, but, I can tell a difference in tendon and joint pain and a pain of a muscle
that's been worked. The pain is of a different kind, and the location of a soreness is different.
Arthritis and tendonitis have similar pain, and tend to hurt at muscle ends (at tendons). They don't
make the middle of your muscle hurt, as if it's full of lactic acid.

Still, I'm trying to understand the process of why muscles hurt after workout, and why they are more
sore on the 2nd day, physiologically and chemically. Not so much in what am I doing to cause it, or
how to minimize
it. That part I already know.

"Helgi Briem" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

DaKitty said:

Why do the muscles always hurt more 2 days after exercise?

Not lactic acid, that happens directly during exercise and wears off quickly. The 2nd day
pains are caused by micro-tearing of the muscle fibers. This happens when the muscle fibers
are not completely synchronised in their contractions. With training, the muscle *learns* and
the pains stop.

are you sure? I know about muscle tears as well. I've had people giove me conflicting information
(not this ng specifically, but people ir) one person says it's the lactic acid, soemone else says
it's the microtears. They can all sound confident and convincing in what they're saying, but the
info is conflicting. That's kind of why I'm wanting to do some research on it.

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<PKogb.15250$gi2.1633@fed1read01>...

Quoted message said:

Anyone know more details of the process, or a few buzzwords where I can read about it?

It's called Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness. See:

sportsinjurybulletin.com1077 muscle soreness.htmOpen ↗

Adrian.

"adrian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<PKogb.15250$gi2.1633@fed1read01>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anyone know more details of the process, or a few buzzwords where I can

read

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about it?

It's called Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness. See:

sportsinjurybulletin.com1077 muscle soreness.htmOpen ↗

Adrian.

Cool, thanks! I'm on my way to check it out. That just might be the info I was after... or, at least
gives me something to start with. 🙂

DaKitty said:

"Helgi Briem" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

DaKitty said:

Why do the muscles always hurt more 2 days after exercise?

Not lactic acid, that happens directly during exercise and wears off quickly. The 2nd day
pains are caused by micro-tearing of the muscle fibers. This happens when the muscle fibers
are not completely synchronised in their contractions. With training, the muscle *learns* and
the pains stop.

are you sure? I know about muscle tears as well. I've had people giove me conflicting information
(not this ng specifically, but people ir) one person says it's the lactic acid, soemone else says
it's the microtears. They can all sound confident and convincing in what they're saying, but the
info is conflicting. That's kind of why I'm wanting to do some research on it.

Yes I'm sure. Noake's "Lore of running" states several studies indicating microtears as the
culprit. However no difinitive studies show lactic acid as a cause. Noakes goes so far as to
call the "lactic acid" theory a myth or urban legend. Most of these studies point to the
fact that Lactic acid is produced during most muscle function even at low intensities, yet
pain is rarely present. Lactic acid is also cleared from the system in fairly short amount
of time compared to the onset of pain. Lactic acid levels can be high without presence of
post excercise pain. This is the case in sprints or intervals. It also points out that
certain activities I.E. Eccentric muscle activity causes more pain than other activities
reguardless of lactic acid levels or intensities. Say for instance dwonhill running weight
lifting. Another point is the duration of activity increases soreness even at low
intensities and low lactic acid levels. Clearly all of these point to musclular damage
rather than lactic acid damage.

~Matt

DaKitty said:

Why do the muscles always hurt more 2 days after exercise? And, if I don't take a day off, they
never get to that level of pain. If I do take a day off, I'm hating it. So, on a day off, I do E-Z
1000 just to move around some. That seems to keep the most of the pain away. Anyone know more
details of the process, or a few buzzwords where I can read about it?

Go to drmirkin.comdrmirkin.comOpen ↗ and enter MUSCLE SORENESS into the search field and press the Enter
key. You'll get a list of articles to read on muscle soreness. Each article has detailed references.
One of Dr. Mirkin's 4 specialties is sports medicine.

One of the articles is "WARMING UP DOES NOT PREVENT MUSCLE SORENESS":
drmirkin.com7996.htmOpen ↗

<MJuric> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

DaKitty said:

"Helgi Briem" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 18:34:46 -0700, "DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote:

>Why do the muscles always hurt more 2 days after exercise?

Not lactic acid, that happens directly during exercise and wears off quickly. The 2nd day pains
are caused by micro-tearing of the muscle fibers. This happens when the muscle fibers are not
completely synchronised in their contractions. With training, the muscle *learns* and the pains
stop.

are you sure? I know about muscle tears as well. I've had people giove

me

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

conflicting information (not this ng specifically, but people ir) one

person

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

says it's the lactic acid, soemone else says it's the microtears. They

can

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

all sound confident and convincing in what they're saying, but the info

is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

conflicting. That's kind of why I'm wanting to do some research on it.

Yes I'm sure. Noake's "Lore of running" states several studies indicating microtears as the
culprit. However no difinitive studies show lactic acid as a cause. Noakes goes so far as to call
the "lactic acid" theory a myth or urban legend. Most of these studies point to the fact that
Lactic acid is produced during most muscle function even at low intensities, yet pain is rarely
present. Lactic acid is also cleared from the system in fairly short amount of time compared to
the onset of pain. Lactic acid levels can be high without presence of post excercise pain. This is
the case in sprints or intervals. It also points out that certain activities I.E. Eccentric muscle
activity causes more pain than other activities reguardless of lactic acid levels or intensities.
Say for instance dwonhill running weight lifting. Another point is the duration of activity
increases soreness even at low intensities and low lactic acid levels. Clearly all of these point
to musclular damage rather than lactic acid damage.

~Matt

I hear ya. There was something else that I was reading, long long time ago... several years ago...
that the muscle produces some sort of a chemical (other than lactic acid) that if not cleared out of
the system soon enough will produce cramping (when present in sufficient doses).. and I may have
this wrong... but I vaguely remember that it's the same chemical that in death produces rigor
mortis. And that post exercise it can produce more stiffness. I may remember this totally wrong...
but that's kind of what I was fishing for (in addition to other things) to clear up and make sense
out of what I was remembering. I'm guessing there is a chemical involved, that accumulates while the
body is at rest, because shortly after moving around and some stretching, the pain and stiffness
goes away. I was told by a chiropractor recently that the muscles get stiff because of the
accumulation of liquid in them, when sedentary, and it takes movement to get that liquid moving
around. I think one of the 'liquids' he mentioned was lymph (which, in the case if micro-tears I
would think is logically present) Also that it has to do with the muscle temperature.

I dunno... I'll have to keep looking and digging around.

DaKitty said:

There was something else that I was reading, long long time ago...

several

Quoted message said:

years ago... that the muscle produces some sort of a chemical (other than lactic acid) that if not
cleared out of the system soon enough will produce cramping (when present in sufficient doses)..
and I may have this wrong... but I vaguely remember that it's the same chemical that in death
produces rigor mortis. And that post exercise it can produce more stiffness. I may remember this
totally wrong

Please, somebody, anybody, tell me that DaKitty is wrong wrong wrong. Here I sit, a couple hours
after swimming, rubbing my arm and reassuring myself that it's only temporary rigor mortis. Why
doesn't that make me feel good about my workout? And after untangling a knotty problem, is that mild
ache in my head also just a touch of rigor mortis of the brain? It does feel that way, but tell me
it just isn't so.

Ruth Kazez

"rtk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

DaKitty said:

There was something else that I was reading, long long time ago...

several

Quoted message said:

years ago... that the muscle produces some sort of a chemical (other

than

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lactic acid) that if not cleared out of the system soon enough will

produce

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cramping (when present in sufficient doses).. and I may have this

wrong...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but I vaguely remember that it's the same chemical that in death

produces

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rigor mortis. And that post exercise it can produce more stiffness. I may remember this
totally wrong

Please, somebody, anybody, tell me that DaKitty is wrong wrong wrong. Here I sit, a couple hours
after swimming, rubbing my arm and reassuring myself that it's only temporary rigor mortis. Why
doesn't that make me feel good about my workout? And after untangling a knotty problem, is that
mild ache in my head also just a touch of rigor mortis of the brain? It does feel that way, but
tell me it just isn't so.

Ruth Kazez

Ya went all the way into the extreme, mr. fatalistic. You're just having rigor. of the muscle, or
the brain... I'm not sure which one. You have couple more years before mortis kicks in :P

BTW, rigor mortis is only temporary, ya braniac.

DaKitty left this mess on Mon, 6 Oct 2003 18:34:46 -0700 for The Way to clean up:

Quoted message said:

Why do the muscles always hurt more 2 days after exercise?

And, if I don't take a day off, they never get to that level of pain. If I do take a day off, I'm
hating it. So, on a day off, I do E-Z 1000 just to move around some. That seems to keep the most of
the pain away.

Anyone know more details of the process, or a few buzzwords where I can read about it?

Take an aspirin or ibuprofen. The pain goes away. Or get a massage.

Tao te Carl

"It takes a village to have an idiot." - Carl (c) 2003

"Michael D. Kersey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

DaKitty said:

Why do the muscles always hurt more 2 days after exercise? And, if I don't take a day off, they
never get to that level of pain. If I do take a day off, I'm hating it. So, on a day off, I do
E-Z 1000 just to move around some. That seems to

keep

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the most of the pain away. Anyone know more details of the process, or a few buzzwords
where I can

read

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about it?

Go to drmirkin.comdrmirkin.comOpen ↗ and enter MUSCLE SORENESS into the search field and press the Enter
key. You'll get a list of articles to read on muscle soreness. Each article has detailed
references. One of Dr. Mirkin's 4 specialties is sports medicine.

One of the articles is "WARMING UP DOES NOT PREVENT MUSCLE SORENESS":
drmirkin.com7996.htmOpen ↗

thanks 🙂

"de Valois" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

DaKitty left this mess on Mon, 6 Oct 2003 18:34:46 -0700 for The Way to

clean

Quoted message said:

up:

Quoted message said:

Why do the muscles always hurt more 2 days after exercise?

And, if I don't take a day off, they never get to that level of pain. If I do take a day off, I'm
hating it. So, on a day off, I do E-Z 1000 just to move around some. That seems to

keep

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the most of the pain away.

Anyone know more details of the process, or a few buzzwords where I can

read

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about it?

Take an aspirin or ibuprofen. The pain goes away. Or get a massage.

ummmm.... how do I say this.... I already do that. That wasn't really the question.... [ducks and
runs]----------------

DaKitty said:

"de Valois" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

DaKitty left this mess on Mon, 6 Oct 2003 18:34:46 -0700 for The Way to

clean

Quoted message said:

up:

Quoted message said:

Why do the muscles always hurt more 2 days after exercise?

SNIP

Quoted message said:

OK, here is a fruity-granola bar response to pain that I read, doubted and tried. Meditate on the
part of your body which is hurting, and send waves of love to that part. I did find this very
helpful for my feet, and suspect that the good feelings produce some chemical which breaks the
pain cycle.