Hypocrisy

"bob sullivan" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It's hypocritical for any of us to condemn Landis, because the simple
fact of the matter is that none of us know the truth. (I'm talking
about empirical truth, what actually happened, not conclusions drawn
from positive dope control tests.) Only Floyd Landis knows 100% for
sure what happened every second of the evening after Stage 17. If
he didn't dope, then I understand his vehement assertions that he
will fight tenaciously to clear his name. I mean, put yourself in
his position: if you knew you hadn't done anything wrong, and you
had just ridden your heart out to pull yourself back into contention,
but you tested positive anyway, wouldn't you do everything in your
power to prove to the world that there was something wrong with the
test?

Landis says his 11:1 ratio was caused by a low epitestosterone level,
not a high testosterone level. I guess time and further testing
will tell if that turns out to be the case or not. As of this
morning, Velonews is reporting that "no tests have shown whether
that ratio was the result of high levels of testosterone or
unusually low levels of epitestosterone"
(http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10646.0.html).

But again, no matter what the tests show, none of us except Floyd
Landis knows if he doped or not. Admitting it or not is a matter
for Floyd and his conscience, and the calls for him to "tell the
truth" and "come clean" are stupid, if the only answer you're
willing to accept is for him to say he's guilty. Because if he
didn't dope, then he *is* telling the truth.

~bob

Bob, here, on the European side, the game is over.
He is and allway will be a cheater, another Lance's lieutenant unmasked.
Now the problem is your. Try to convince the US cycling but pls don't try to
convince us.

Bob,

You are correct. There is a small chance that Landis is not guilty,
and that his body, as a freak of nature, produces testosterone. In
another post, I point out that a French expert Gerard Dines (with the
funny accent mark over the first "e"😉 says (quoted in the Aug 7 issue
of Time (Europe)) that even the carbon isotope test for detecting
synthetic T is not foolproof. It could be Landis is a freak of nature.

As for nobody but Landis knowing, this is not strictly true. In
another post, I pointed out a scientific paper that said if you leave a
urine sample to get warm, bacteria can multiply the T/E ratio to 10
times the initial rate. Unfortunately, as somebody posted here (and I
wish I could confirm this), the urine samples are frozen in the TDF, so
this possibility is not possible for Landis.

RL

bob sullivan said:

It's hypocritical for any of us to condemn Landis, because the simple
fact of the matter is that none of us know the truth. (I'm talking
about empirical truth, what actually happened, not conclusions drawn
from positive dope control tests.) Only Floyd Landis knows 100% for
sure what happened every second of the evening after Stage 17. If
he didn't dope, then I understand his vehement assertions that he
will fight tenaciously to clear his name. I mean, put yourself in
his position: if you knew you hadn't done anything wrong, and you
had just ridden your heart out to pull yourself back into contention,
but you tested positive anyway, wouldn't you do everything in your
power to prove to the world that there was something wrong with the
test?

Landis says his 11:1 ratio was caused by a low epitestosterone level,
not a high testosterone level. I guess time and further testing
will tell if that turns out to be the case or not. As of this
morning, Velonews is reporting that "no tests have shown whether
that ratio was the result of high levels of testosterone or
unusually low levels of epitestosterone"
(http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10646.0.html).

But again, no matter what the tests show, none of us except Floyd
Landis knows if he doped or not. Admitting it or not is a matter
for Floyd and his conscience, and the calls for him to "tell the
truth" and "come clean" are stupid, if the only answer you're
willing to accept is for him to say he's guilty. Because if he
didn't dope, then he *is* telling the truth.

~bob

Montesquiou said:

"bob sullivan" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It's hypocritical for any of us to condemn Landis, because the simple
fact of the matter is that none of us know the truth. (I'm talking
about empirical truth, what actually happened, not conclusions drawn
from positive dope control tests.) Only Floyd Landis knows 100% for
sure what happened every second of the evening after Stage 17. If
he didn't dope, then I understand his vehement assertions that he
will fight tenaciously to clear his name. I mean, put yourself in
his position: if you knew you hadn't done anything wrong, and you
had just ridden your heart out to pull yourself back into contention,
but you tested positive anyway, wouldn't you do everything in your
power to prove to the world that there was something wrong with the
test?

Landis says his 11:1 ratio was caused by a low epitestosterone level,
not a high testosterone level. I guess time and further testing
will tell if that turns out to be the case or not. As of this
morning, Velonews is reporting that "no tests have shown whether
that ratio was the result of high levels of testosterone or
unusually low levels of epitestosterone"
(http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10646.0.html).

But again, no matter what the tests show, none of us except Floyd
Landis knows if he doped or not. Admitting it or not is a matter
for Floyd and his conscience, and the calls for him to "tell the
truth" and "come clean" are stupid, if the only answer you're
willing to accept is for him to say he's guilty. Because if he
didn't dope, then he *is* telling the truth.

~bob

Bob, here, on the European side, the game is over.
He is and allway will be a cheater, another Lance's lieutenant unmasked.
Now the problem is your. Try to convince the US cycling but pls don't tryto
convince us.

Ya the french hate a cheat...unless of course he is their own.

Can you say Richard Virenque ?

Montesquiou said:

"bob sullivan" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It's hypocritical for any of us to condemn Landis, because the simple
fact of the matter is that none of us know the truth. (I'm talking
about empirical truth, what actually happened, not conclusions drawn
from positive dope control tests.) Only Floyd Landis knows 100% for
sure what happened every second of the evening after Stage 17. If
he didn't dope, then I understand his vehement assertions that he
will fight tenaciously to clear his name. I mean, put yourself in
his position: if you knew you hadn't done anything wrong, and you
had just ridden your heart out to pull yourself back into contention,
but you tested positive anyway, wouldn't you do everything in your
power to prove to the world that there was something wrong with the
test?

Landis says his 11:1 ratio was caused by a low epitestosterone level,
not a high testosterone level. I guess time and further testing
will tell if that turns out to be the case or not. As of this
morning, Velonews is reporting that "no tests have shown whether
that ratio was the result of high levels of testosterone or
unusually low levels of epitestosterone"
(http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10646.0.html).

But again, no matter what the tests show, none of us except Floyd
Landis knows if he doped or not. Admitting it or not is a matter
for Floyd and his conscience, and the calls for him to "tell the
truth" and "come clean" are stupid, if the only answer you're
willing to accept is for him to say he's guilty. Because if he
didn't dope, then he *is* telling the truth.

~bob

Bob, here, on the European side, the game is over.
He is and allway will be a cheater, another Lance's lieutenant unmasked.
Now the problem is your. Try to convince the US cycling but pls don't try to
convince us.

Montesquiou, were you there with Landis all night after Stage 17? I'm
assuming the answer is no. Then you don't *know* what happened. You're
drawing conclusions from the dope tests, and that's all we who were
not there have to go on. That's all I'm trying to point out. If
you're convinced that he's guilty, that's your prerogative, and I
won't try to convince you of anything.

If Landis doped, I hope he eventually tells the truth. If he didn't,
I hope he sticks to his guns and doesn't cop to something he didn't
do.

Existentialism is wreaking havoc on my stomach. I think I'm going to
have to switch philosophies. 🙂

~bob

Montesquiou a écrit :

Quoted message said:

"bob sullivan" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

But again, no matter what the tests show, none of us except Floyd
Landis knows if he doped or not. Admitting it or not is a matter
for Floyd and his conscience, and the calls for him to "tell the
truth" and "come clean" are stupid, if the only answer you're
willing to accept is for him to say he's guilty. Because if he
didn't dope, then he *is* telling the truth.

~bob

Bob, here, on the European side, the game is over.
He is and allway will be a cheater, another Lance's lieutenant unmasked.
Now the problem is your. Try to convince the US cycling but pls don't try to
convince us.

Dear concitoyen -

I will correct you, if you don't mind. In France and most of Europe,
the overall belief is that CYCLING is a sport _globally_ corrupted by
doping. When an individual rider tests positive, people are not
hesitant to believe it. It has nothing to do with that rider, but with
the generalized impression of corruption.

Whether you connect Landis to Phonak or Armstrong makes no difference.

--

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
-
Il n'est aucune sorte de sensation qui soit plus vive que celle de la
douleur ; ses impressions sont sûres, elles ne trompent point comme
celles du plaisir.
- de Sade.

"bob sullivan" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Montesquiou said:

"bob sullivan" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It's hypocritical for any of us to condemn Landis, because the simple
fact of the matter is that none of us know the truth. (I'm talking
about empirical truth, what actually happened, not conclusions drawn
from positive dope control tests.) Only Floyd Landis knows 100% for
sure what happened every second of the evening after Stage 17. If
he didn't dope, then I understand his vehement assertions that he
will fight tenaciously to clear his name. I mean, put yourself in
his position: if you knew you hadn't done anything wrong, and you
had just ridden your heart out to pull yourself back into contention,
but you tested positive anyway, wouldn't you do everything in your
power to prove to the world that there was something wrong with the
test?

Landis says his 11:1 ratio was caused by a low epitestosterone level,
not a high testosterone level. I guess time and further testing
will tell if that turns out to be the case or not. As of this
morning, Velonews is reporting that "no tests have shown whether
that ratio was the result of high levels of testosterone or
unusually low levels of epitestosterone"
(http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10646.0.html).

But again, no matter what the tests show, none of us except Floyd
Landis knows if he doped or not. Admitting it or not is a matter
for Floyd and his conscience, and the calls for him to "tell the
truth" and "come clean" are stupid, if the only answer you're
willing to accept is for him to say he's guilty. Because if he
didn't dope, then he *is* telling the truth.

~bob

Bob, here, on the European side, the game is over.
He is and allway will be a cheater, another Lance's lieutenant unmasked.
Now the problem is your. Try to convince the US cycling but pls don't try
to convince us.

Montesquiou, were you there with Landis all night after Stage 17? I'm
assuming the answer is no. Then you don't *know* what happened. You're
drawing conclusions from the dope tests, and that's all we who were
not there have to go on. That's all I'm trying to point out. If
you're convinced that he's guilty, that's your prerogative, and I
won't try to convince you of anything.

If Landis doped, I hope he eventually tells the truth. If he didn't,
I hope he sticks to his guns and doesn't cop to something he didn't
do.

Existentialism is wreaking havoc on my stomach. I think I'm going to
have to switch philosophies. 🙂

~bob

Dear friend Bob.

Thanks for your answer.
No I was not there. Nor was I (nor you) near all the criminals today in jail
in France, USA, GB or any aother country.
It is why the evidences are so important.
Two positive test represent evidence.
Now, if you want to change the way justice is done - some one to be present
there according to you - I wish you good luck for to judge most of the
crimes.😉

"raylopez99" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bob,

You are correct. There is a small chance that Landis is not guilty,
and that his body, as a freak of nature, produces testosterone. In
another post, I point out that a French expert Gerard Dines (with the
funny accent mark over the first "e"😉 says (quoted in the Aug 7 issue
of Time (Europe)) that even the carbon isotope test for detecting
synthetic T is not foolproof.

He could not show what you say to be a funny accent mark over the first "e"
( Very unfair and xenophobic remark you did) because it was a translation.

I don't like to make fun the way your fellow citizens speak french : I thank
them and apreciate their effort.
I think you are an embarrassment.

It could be Landis is a freak of nature.

Quoted message said:

As for nobody but Landis knowing, this is not strictly true. In
another post, I pointed out a scientific paper that said if you leave a
urine sample to get warm, bacteria can multiply the T/E ratio to 10
times the initial rate. Unfortunately, as somebody posted here (and I
wish I could confirm this), the urine samples are frozen in the TDF, so
this possibility is not possible for Landis.

RL

bob sullivan said:

It's hypocritical for any of us to condemn Landis, because the simple
fact of the matter is that none of us know the truth. (I'm talking
about empirical truth, what actually happened, not conclusions drawn
from positive dope control tests.) Only Floyd Landis knows 100% for
sure what happened every second of the evening after Stage 17. If
he didn't dope, then I understand his vehement assertions that he
will fight tenaciously to clear his name. I mean, put yourself in
his position: if you knew you hadn't done anything wrong, and you
had just ridden your heart out to pull yourself back into contention,
but you tested positive anyway, wouldn't you do everything in your
power to prove to the world that there was something wrong with the
test?

Landis says his 11:1 ratio was caused by a low epitestosterone level,
not a high testosterone level. I guess time and further testing
will tell if that turns out to be the case or not. As of this
morning, Velonews is reporting that "no tests have shown whether
that ratio was the result of high levels of testosterone or
unusually low levels of epitestosterone"
(http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10646.0.html).

But again, no matter what the tests show, none of us except Floyd
Landis knows if he doped or not. Admitting it or not is a matter
for Floyd and his conscience, and the calls for him to "tell the
truth" and "come clean" are stupid, if the only answer you're
willing to accept is for him to say he's guilty. Because if he
didn't dope, then he *is* telling the truth.

~bob

"Sandy" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Montesquiou a écrit :

Quoted message said:

"bob sullivan" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

But again, no matter what the tests show, none of us except Floyd
Landis knows if he doped or not. Admitting it or not is a matter
for Floyd and his conscience, and the calls for him to "tell the
truth" and "come clean" are stupid, if the only answer you're
willing to accept is for him to say he's guilty. Because if he
didn't dope, then he *is* telling the truth.

~bob

Bob, here, on the European side, the game is over.
He is and allway will be a cheater, another Lance's lieutenant unmasked.
Now the problem is your. Try to convince the US cycling but pls don't try
to convince us.

Dear concitoyen -

I will correct you, if you don't mind. In France and most of Europe, the
overall belief is that CYCLING is a sport _globally_ corrupted by doping.

Dear concitoyen,

Helas, I have to agree with you.
I don't know if you paid attention to France-Inter today.
While poor Xavier Louis (former Dir of the TDF) was doing his best for to
explain that the more you look for, the more you will find, this F$%£µED
reporter had just one interest : ALL DOPED!
Sad, very sad

http://www.radiofrance.fr/chaines/france-inter01/information/journaux/

When an individual rider tests positive, people are not

Quoted message said:

hesitant to believe it. It has nothing to do with that rider, but with
the generalized impression of corruption.

Whether you connect Landis to Phonak or Armstrong makes no difference.

We can, if you want, talk about the suspicion on Lance.

As I said here once, I am not a specialist of anything.
I am one of this anonymous you see on the road claping hands. But I just ask
for the responsibles not to make me as a fool (ne pas faire de moi un idiot)
I am open for to believe Lance, Floyd, Virenque and others to be clear.
Once again : I am happy to spend a day on the TDF; But even if free, I will
think twice next year.
Better to be with friends at home than to be an idiot expecting some cheater
climbing a col using Testosterone as combustible.

Quoted message said:

--

Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
-
Il n'est aucune sorte de sensation qui soit plus vive que celle de la
douleur ; ses impressions sont sûres, elles ne trompent point comme celles
du plaisir.
- de Sade.

Quoted message said:

Montesquiou, were you there with Landis all night after Stage 17? I'm

I wasn't there but I know exactly what Landis was doing the night after
Stage 17. He just sat in his room and kept repeating to himself :

"Oh S!!!, why did I win that Stage today?
"Oh S!!!, why did I win that Stage today?
"Oh S!!!, why did I win that Stage today?

The night after Stage 16 was a different matter, he was very busy emptying
the drugstore shelves.

bob sullivan said:

Montesquiou, were you there with Landis all night after Stage 17? I'm
assuming the answer is no. Then you don't *know* what happened. You're
drawing conclusions from the dope tests,

Is OJ innocent?

Montesquiou schreef:

Quoted message said:

Bob, here, on the European side, the game is over.
He is and allway will be a cheater, another Lance's lieutenant unmasked.
Now the problem is your. Try to convince the US cycling but pls don't try to
convince us.

Please speak for yourself.

--
E. Dronkert

bob sullivan said:

It's hypocritical for any of us to condemn Landis, because the simple
fact of the matter is that none of us know the truth. (I'm talking
about empirical truth, what actually happened, not conclusions drawn
from positive dope control tests.) Only Floyd Landis knows 100% for
sure what happened every second of the evening after Stage 17. If
he didn't dope, then I understand his vehement assertions that he
will fight tenaciously to clear his name. I mean, put yourself in
his position: if you knew you hadn't done anything wrong, and you
had just ridden your heart out to pull yourself back into contention,
but you tested positive anyway, wouldn't you do everything in your
power to prove to the world that there was something wrong with the
test?

In the US, innocent until proved guilty without reasonable doubt
judged by a jury of one's peers. I for one could not be a peer as i
cannot compare elite level athletes performance and labs to what? What
is normal for a world class athlete?

The EXPERTS, yeah all of you in RBR, don't understand the science
they are seeing and cannot speak in intelligent terms about what the
tests reveal. They all have an answer but really don't know the
question. Is flandis telling the truth??

Quoted message said:

Landis says his 11:1 ratio was caused by a low epitestosterone level,
not a high testosterone level. I guess time and further testing
will tell if that turns out to be the case or not. As of this
morning, Velonews is reporting that "no tests have shown whether
that ratio was the result of high levels of testosterone or
unusually low levels of epitestosterone"
(http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10646.0.html).

Landis states on his web page his testo was normal and his epitesto
was the one that was abnormal ratio. Trial by media again and
inaccurate media.at that.

Quoted message said:

But again, no matter what the tests show, none of us except Floyd
Landis knows if he doped or not. Admitting it or not is a matter
for Floyd and his conscience, and the calls for him to "tell the
truth" and "come clean" are stupid, if the only answer you're
willing to accept is for him to say he's guilty. Because if he
didn't dope, then he *is* telling the truth.

~bob

bob sullivan said:

It's hypocritical for any of us to condemn Landis, because the simple
fact of the matter is that none of us know the truth.

Stop. Right. There.

Your condemnation, or the lack thereof, amounts to nothing. It is more
productive to examine your own failings than the failings of Landis or
his accusers.

OK, I've got that off my chest. Go about your drama, citizens.

Montesquiou said:

"raylopez99" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bob,

You are correct. There is a small chance that Landis is not guilty,
and that his body, as a freak of nature, produces testosterone. In
another post, I point out that a French expert Gerard Dines (with the
funny accent mark over the first "e"😉 says (quoted in the Aug 7 issue
of Time (Europe)) that even the carbon isotope test for detecting
synthetic T is not foolproof.

He could not show what you say to be a funny accent mark over the first "e"
( Very unfair and xenophobic remark you did) because it was a translation.

I don't like to make fun the way your fellow citizens speak french : I thank
them and apreciate their effort.
I think you are an embarrassment.

In the interests of educating, rather than just criticising,
here's what the various diacritical marks are called:

The accent mark going up from left to right over the vowel is
called 'acute'.

The accent mark going down from left to right over the vowel is
called 'grave'.

The accent that looks like an inverted 'v' over the vowel is
called 'circumflex'.

~bob

mrbubl said:

The EXPERTS, yeah all of you in RBR, don't understand
the science they are seeing and cannot speak in intelligent
terms about what the tests reveal.

Show me the isotope mass spec trace and I will.

Montesquiou said:

"bob sullivan" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It's hypocritical for any of us to condemn Landis, because the simple
fact of the matter is that none of us know the truth. (I'm talking
about empirical truth, what actually happened, not conclusions drawn
from positive dope control tests.) Only Floyd Landis knows 100% for
sure what happened every second of the evening after Stage 17. If
he didn't dope, then I understand his vehement assertions that he
will fight tenaciously to clear his name. I mean, put yourself in
his position: if you knew you hadn't done anything wrong, and you
had just ridden your heart out to pull yourself back into contention,
but you tested positive anyway, wouldn't you do everything in your
power to prove to the world that there was something wrong with the
test?

Landis says his 11:1 ratio was caused by a low epitestosterone level,
not a high testosterone level. I guess time and further testing
will tell if that turns out to be the case or not. As of this
morning, Velonews is reporting that "no tests have shown whether
that ratio was the result of high levels of testosterone or
unusually low levels of epitestosterone"
(http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10646.0.html).

But again, no matter what the tests show, none of us except Floyd
Landis knows if he doped or not. Admitting it or not is a matter
for Floyd and his conscience, and the calls for him to "tell the
truth" and "come clean" are stupid, if the only answer you're
willing to accept is for him to say he's guilty. Because if he
didn't dope, then he *is* telling the truth.

~bob

Bob, here, on the European side, the game is over.
He is and allway will be a cheater, another Lance's lieutenant unmasked.
Now the problem is your. Try to convince the US cycling but pls don't tryto
convince us.

Who elected you to speak for "us"?

Is being a buffoon the only necessary qualification?

JessicaG said:

The night after Stage 16 was a different matter, he was very busy emptying
the drugstore shelves.

That's no crime, no violation of anything.

Perhaps you ought to try doing it yourself.

<[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Montesquiou said:

"bob sullivan" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It's hypocritical for any of us to condemn Landis, because the simple
fact of the matter is that none of us know the truth. (I'm talking
about empirical truth, what actually happened, not conclusions drawn
from positive dope control tests.) Only Floyd Landis knows 100% for
sure what happened every second of the evening after Stage 17. If
he didn't dope, then I understand his vehement assertions that he
will fight tenaciously to clear his name. I mean, put yourself in
his position: if you knew you hadn't done anything wrong, and you
had just ridden your heart out to pull yourself back into contention,
but you tested positive anyway, wouldn't you do everything in your
power to prove to the world that there was something wrong with the
test?

Landis says his 11:1 ratio was caused by a low epitestosterone level,
not a high testosterone level. I guess time and further testing
will tell if that turns out to be the case or not. As of this
morning, Velonews is reporting that "no tests have shown whether
that ratio was the result of high levels of testosterone or
unusually low levels of epitestosterone"
(http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10646.0.html).

But again, no matter what the tests show, none of us except Floyd
Landis knows if he doped or not. Admitting it or not is a matter
for Floyd and his conscience, and the calls for him to "tell the
truth" and "come clean" are stupid, if the only answer you're
willing to accept is for him to say he's guilty. Because if he
didn't dope, then he *is* telling the truth.

~bob

Bob, here, on the European side, the game is over.
He is and allway will be a cheater, another Lance's lieutenant unmasked.
Now the problem is your. Try to convince the US cycling but pls don't try
to
convince us.

Quoted message said:

Who elected you to speak for "us"?

Quoted message said:

Is being a buffoon the only necessary qualification?

It seems you are angry. The result of the B sample I presume.

mrbubl said:

Quoted message said:

The EXPERTS, yeah all of you in RBR, don't understand
the science they are seeing and cannot speak in intelligent
terms about what the tests reveal.

Kyle Legate said:

Show me the isotope mass spec trace and I will.

If you did the test Kunich would reject it and that would invalidate the
entire methodology, at least in the KVU (Kunich Virtual Universe).