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Mountain Biking FAQ

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Mountain Bikes
Published
1 July 2006
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5 August 2006
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Mike Vandeman
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  1. Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
    March 5, 2004

    1. Why do people mountain bike?
    a. They say that using a bike allows them to get much farther, in
    the same amount of time, than they can by walking. They also maintain
    constant pressure on land managers, to open more and more trails to
    bikes. Of course, all of these trails are already open to them, if
    they choose to walk. They also frequently claim that closing trails to
    bikes "excludes" them from the parks. This could only be true if they
    were unable to walk. Of course, they are able to walk. There's nothing
    inherently wrong with bicycling instead of walking; we all like to
    save energy, when it's appropriate. Use of a bicycle to replace
    automobile use is obviously beneficial. However, by the same token,
    replacing hiking with mountain biking is obviously not beneficial.
    b. They are interested in the quantity of nature they can see,
    rather than the quality of their experience. While riding a bike,
    especially over terrain as rough as a trail, one has to be constantly
    paying attention to not crashing. That makes it almost impossible to
    notice much else. By contrast, a hiker feels the ground, hears all the
    sounds and smells all the odors of nature and can stop instantly, if
    he/she finds something interesting. The brain thrives on stimulation.
    A biker has to travel several times as far as a hiker, to get the same
    stimulation as a hiker. (And, by the same token, motorcyclists have to
    travel several times as far as a bicyclist, and an auto user several
    times as far as a motorcyclist, since they are enclosed in a metal
    box.)
    c. They are interested in thrills. Riding a bike on a trail,
    especially a trail containing many obstacles, or a trail one is not
    familiar with, is very challenging. (But if mountain biking is the
    high point of your week, as it seems to be for many mountain bikers,
    you must be leading a pretty dull life, off of the bike!)
    d. They are interested in building mountain biking skills and
    competing with other mountain bikers. The thrill of racing drives
    people to spend more money on their bike, and ride it harder and more
    often. Racing, up to and including the Olympics, drives a lot of
    mountain biking. Of course, it is also extremely harmful to the parks
    and natural areas that are used for practice! It is hard to think of
    any other (legal) use of public lands, other than hunting, that is as
    harmful as mountain biking.

    2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking? Besides the
    attraction for participants, manufacturers and retailers of mountain
    bikes and mountain biking accessories, as well as "adventure" travel
    guides, make a lot of money from promoting mountain biking. Even some
    auto manufacturers (e.g. Subaru) promote and sponsor mountain biking,
    and try to use its popularity to sell more cars. The tourism industry
    also promotes mountain biking, among other attractions.

    3. What harm does mountain biking do?
    a. Most obvious is the acceleration of erosion. Knobby tires rip
    into the soil, loosening it and allowing rain to wash it away. They
    also create V-shaped grooves that make walking difficult or even
    dangerous. The mechanical advantage given by the gears and ball
    bearings allow a mountain biker to travel several times as fast as a
    hiker. Given their increased weight (rider plus bike), this results in
    vastly increased momentum, and hence much greater horizontal
    (shearing) forces on the soil. (Witness the skid marks from stops,
    starts, and turns.) According to Newton, every action has an equal and
    opposite reaction. Mountain bikes were built much stronger than other
    bikes, so that they could withstand the greater forces they were
    subject to on rough trails. These same forces, therefore, are being
    applied to the trails! To give a definite number, the winner of a
    20-mile race here in Briones Regional Park averaged 13 MPH (the speed
    limit is 15 MPH -- where were the park rangers?).
    b. A hiker must be very careful not to accidentally step on small
    animals and plants on the trail. For a mountain biker, it is almost
    impossible to avoid killing countless animals and plants on and under
    the trail. They have to pay attention to controlling the bike, and
    can't afford to look carefully at what is on the trail, especially
    when travelling fast. And even if they happen to see, for example, a
    snake, it is hard for them to stop in time to avoid killing it. A
    hiker, when crossing a creek, will try to avoid getting wet, by
    crossing on stepping stones or logs. Mountain bikers, on the other
    hand, simply ride right through the creek bed, crushing any animals or
    plants that happen to be there. Mountain biking magazines are full of
    photos of mountain bikers throwing up spray, as they barrel through
    creeks. Not only do bikes destroy animals and plants as they ride
    across streams, they ride through streams stirring up sediment. The
    sediment in the water interferes with the oxygen uptake by aquatic
    life, for example, killing fish- and frog eggs. Young fish, insects,
    amphibians, and aquatic microorganisms are extremely sensitive to
    sediment in water.
    c. Bikes also allow people to travel several times as far as a
    hiker. This translates into several times the impacts, both on the
    trail and on the wildlife (to say nothing of the other trail users).
    Existing parklands are already inadequate to protect the wildlife that
    live there. When they are crisscrossed by mountain bikers and legal or
    illegal trails, their habitat becomes even more inadequate. Mountain
    bikers frequently advertise rides of 20-50 miles or more. Have you
    ever tried to walk that far in a day? In other words, allowing bikes
    in a park greatly increases human presence in that park and drives
    wildlife further from the resources that they need to survive,
    including water, food, and mates.
    d. Due to their width and speed, bikes can't safely pass each
    other on narrow trails. Therefore, policies that permit mountain
    biking also result in more habitat destruction, as trails are widened
    by bikers (or by hikers and equestrians jumping out of their way).
    e. Knobby mountain bike tires are ideal for carrying mud, and
    consequently exotic plants, fungi, and other organisms from place to
    place, resulting in the spread of exotic invasive species, such as
    weeds and Sudden Oak Death.
    f. Mountain biking is driving the very young and old off of the
    trails and hence out of the parks. Even able-bodied hikers and
    equestrians fear for their safety, and don't enjoy sharing the trails
    with bikes. (The mountain bikers claim that they are simply being
    selfish and "unwilling to share", but actually they have no problem
    sharing trails with mountain bikers; it is only their bikes that are a
    problem!)
    g. Mountain bikes, which are obviously built to go anywhere,
    teach children and anyone else who sees them that the rough treatment
    of nature is acceptable. This undoubtedly has a negative effect on
    people's treatment of nature.
    h. In order to mitigate bike-caused erosion, park managers have
    been resorting to extreme measures -- even in some cases putting a
    plastic matrix or other exotic material under the trail (e.g. in
    Pleasanton Ridge Regional Preserve, near Pleasanton, California)! It's
    hard to imagine that this will have a beneficial effect on the park
    and its wildlife….
    i. Allowing mountain bikes in a park greatly increases the damage
    to the trails, damage from "bootleg" (illegally created) trails, and
    the problems of conflicts between trail users, and hence the cost of
    maintaining the park. Considering how tight park budgets are, we can't
    afford the extra costs of policing, and repairing the damage from,
    mountain biking.
    j. For the science on mountain biking and its impacts on wildlife
    and people, see http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.htm.

    4. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater environmental
    impact than hiking. Is that true? If you read the "studies" that make
    that claim, you find that they don't really compare the impacts of
    hiking and mountain biking, but only the impacts per foot. If, for a
    moment, we assume that the studies are correct in their having
    equivalent impacts per foot, it would still follow that mountain
    biking has far greater impact per person, since mountain bikers
    typically travel so much farther than hikers. Besides overlooking
    distances travelled, those "studies" almost all ignore impacts on
    wildlife. And they don't study mountain biking under normal conditions
    -- only at a very slow speed. Actually, the comparison with hiking is
    irrelevant. It would only be relevant if we planned to allow only one
    of the two, and were considering which of the two is more harmful. In
    fact, no one is considering banning hiking. We are only considering
    adding mountain biking. Therefore, the only relevant question is, "Is
    mountain biking harmful"? (Of course, it is!) There is only one truly
    scientific study that I know of that compares the impacts of hiking
    and mountain biking. It found that mountain biking has a greater
    impact on elk than hiking (Wisdom, M. J., H. K. Preisler, N. J. Cimon,
    B. K. Johnson. 2004. Effects of Off-Road Recreation on Mule Deer and
    Elk. Transactions of the North American Wildlife and Natural Resource
    Conference 69: in press.)

    5. Where should mountain biking allowed? A couple of role models for
    wildlife protection are Yosemite National Park and East Bay Municipal
    Utility District (in Alameda and Contra Costa counties, California).
    They both restrict bicycles to paved roads, where they can't do much
    harm. Somehow bicyclists have managed to enjoy their sport for over a
    hundred years, without riding off-road.

    6. What should the policy be on trails? Closed to bikes, unless marked
    open. Signs that say "No Bikes" are quickly and repeatedly ripped out
    of the ground by mountain bikers.

    7. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and equestrians on trails,
    but not mountain bikers? Mountain bikers love to say this, apparently
    because they think it will gain them some sympathy. The truth is that
    mountain bikers have exactly the same access to trails that everyone
    else has! It is only their bikes that are banned. If mountain bikers
    were really being discriminated against, they could easily go to court
    to gain access. However … they already have access to every trail in
    the world!

    8. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public lands? I am a
    taxpayer! The public has the right, through its elected
    representatives, to restrict how land is used. A federal court has
    already ruled that there is no right to mountain bike. It is a
    privilege, and any land manager who gives a good reason (such as
    safety or protecting the environment) can keep bikes off of trails
    (see http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/mtb10.htm).

    9. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail construction
    and trail maintenance? Trail construction destroys wildlife habitat
    both directly (by killing plants and animals) and indirectly (by
    reducing the size of the intervening "islands" of habitat). Moreover,
    mountain bikers favor trails that are "twisty" (sinuous), bumpy, and
    full of obstacles that provide thrills for mountain bikers. Such
    designs increase habitat destruction (by lengthening the trail) and
    make the trails less useful for hikers and equestrians. Trail
    maintenance sounds good, until you realize that it would hardly be
    necessary, if bikes weren't allowed there. The mountain bikers are the
    main reason why trail maintenance is necessary! Trails used only by
    hikers require hardly any maintenance. Therefore, admitting bicycles
    to a park greatly increases its cost of maintenance. Nothing is really
    "free", including trail construction and maintenance. (How does the
    saying go? "Beware of Trojans bearing gifts"?)

    10. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by being able to
    quickly summon help in the event of an emergency? I would rather trust
    in a cell phone, than a speeding mountain biker. Besides, natural
    areas are already one of the safest places you can be. In over 50
    years of hiking and backpacking, I have never witnessed any situation
    requiring emergency aid. Most people go to natural areas partly for
    solitude. If we wanted to be around large, fast-moving pieces of
    machinery, we would stay in the city!

    11. Can't mountain biking help get our overweight kids off the couch?
    Hiking can already do that, without causing extra harm to wildlife and
    people. Mountain biking downhill provides zero exercise benefit.
    Mountain biking on level ground provides minimal exercise benefit,
    much less than walking. Since it's impossible to pay any attention to
    your surroundings while mountain biking (or you will crash), there's
    no reason to promote mountain biking. It benefits only those who stand
    to make money off of it, such as bike manufacturers, retailers, and
    tour companies.

    12. Doesn't mountain biking get people out of their cars? So do
    walking, road cycling, and transit use, without harm to the natural
    environment. Since very few mountain biking opportunities are within
    easy bicycling distance, the vast majority of mountain bike trips
    require transporting the bike in a truck, SUV, or car. If mountain
    bikers cared about the environment, they would bicycle to the park,
    lock their bike at the trailhead, and hike. Or simply bicycle on paved
    roads, as bicyclists have for the past century.

    13. Doesn't the threat from mountain biking pale, in comparison to
    other sources of environmental damage, such as logging? Maybe, and
    maybe not. Mountain biking teaches people that the rough treatment of
    nature is acceptable, so it may lead to many other abuses. In parks,
    where most mountain biking is done, it is probably the most harmful
    activity allowed. But even if mountain biking is less damaging than
    another activity, such as logging, it is still additional damage. If
    an area is already messed up (e.g. by logging), how does that make it
    okay to do additional damage? It doesn't!

    14. What's wrong with night riding? Humans have been destroying
    wildlife habitat for centuries, so that very little remains. Our
    presence in parks prevents wildlife from using a large part of their
    habitat, at least during the daytime. Now that night riding is
    becoming popular, wildlife and being denied that habitat even at
    night, or incur an increased risk getting run over, if they attempt to
    use it. There is very little law enforcement even during the day in
    these days of tight budgets. There is no patrolling of parks at night!
    This gives mountain bikers free rein to do whatever they want,
    including riding trails that are closed to bikes or even building
    their own illegal trails. No wonder night riding is so popular! And,
    of course, night riding makes an activity that is already very
    dangerous, much more dangerous.

    Note: I was the Chair of the Wildlife Committee of the Sierra Club's
    San Francisco Bay Area Chapter for the past decade. During the same
    period, I studied conservation biology and the environmental impacts
    of mountain biking, which are summarized in my paper "The Impacts of
    Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People -- A Review of the Literature"
    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.htm.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  2. Mike Vandeman said:

    Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
    Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.

    Hey Do(r)c!

    Your wife just put on that greasy, urine-stained hemp negligee you bought
    (or made?) for her 27 years ago.

    She's waiting for you. (You can tell; the house is listing heavily to one
    side.)

    Go to her.

    Leave us be.

    HANN!

    BS <eg>

  3. On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 08:26:49 -0700, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    On Sat, 1 Jul 2006 20:28:04 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Bill Sornson ... just another garden variety mountain biker [censored] who
    can't stand any information that runs counter to what he wants to do -
    which
    is to ride roughshod over the environment. Maybe someday a hiker will
    do the
    world a favor and blow his freaking head off. Who needs [censored] like
    him
    who only know how to destroy what mother nature took millennia to
    create.

    I'm reading about those Neanderthals at the moment. [censored] sapiens
    refused to mate with them! No wonder most of them went extinct....

    Finally researching your family tree [shrub]?
    ____
    Slack

  4. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Jebo ti pas milu mater supljoglavu.odi doma tati nazezati kozicu..

  5. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 13:58:17 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    It's nice that Curtiss has found a hobby: stalking his betters. Yawn.

    Nice to see you two share such high opinions of yourselves. I suppose you
    must as nobody else does....
    It is also nice to see you are obviously so desperate for support of your
    myopic and unsubstantiated opinions you are perfectly content to have a
    bigoted, violent, sexist person who is merely shadowing your views because
    it is a topic he can provoke to further his own ego. Apparently, despite
    your views on road construction, you are even willing to overlook his
    comments as shown on global warming. It is both pathetic and enlightening
    that you would so willingly accept support from someone who is so openly
    antagonistic for no purpose beyond trying to feel superior (and failing).
    But, of course, I suppose you have to take it where you can get it since you
    have no other.

  6. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Ed on Ed:

    Jun 28 2006 1:47 am

    "Usenet is strictly for idiots, [censored] and jerks - positively no
    exceptions! When I am on Usenet I try to be the biggest idiot, [censored]
    and
    jerk of them all. I set the standard for one and all. I believe I can
    state with absolute assurance that I am the Greatest Idiot, the Greatest
    [censored] and the Greatest Jerk that usenet has ever known in its' long
    and
    dishonored history. For Christ's sakes, I prove it every time I post.
    Can't any of you poor [censored] read?

    However, Curtiss is an even bigger Idiot, [censored] and Jerk.

    Yes, we know....


    ROFLMAO at the ego stroking between these two....

  7. "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "S Curtiss" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:_Ucqg.29157$FR1.9905@dukeread05...

    Quoted message said:

    Ed on Ed:

    Jun 28 2006 1:47 am

    "Usenet is strictly for idiots, [censored] and jerks - positively no
    exceptions! When I am on Usenet I try to be the biggest idiot, [censored]
    and jerk of them all. I set the standard for one and all. I believe I can
    state with absolute assurance that I am the Greatest Idiot, the Greatest
    [censored] and the Greatest Jerk that usenet has ever known in its' long and
    dishonored history. For Christ's sakes, I prove it every time I post.
    Can't any of you poor [censored] read?

    However, Curtiss is an even bigger Idiot, [censored] and Jerk. I though
    everyone would know this without me having to repeat it endlessly ad
    infinitum.


    You calling me names has no meaning because you have no substance in your
    comments. Your own admissions say so. You have no position, no authority, no
    integrity to even begin to assess my character. Actually, based on your
    history as shown, it is a compliment for you to even try.

    Quoted message said:
  8. <All Mikes BS snipped>

    He has some very valid points, you dont discuss them, you simply call him a
    liar. I just see you at you PhD orals, "No prof XYZ, Im right, LIAR"

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

  9. Chris Foster said:

    <All Mikes BS snipped>

    He has some very valid points, you dont discuss them, you simply call him a
    liar. I just see you at you PhD orals, "No prof XYZ, Im right, LIAR"

    I'm sure there were no orals. And, of course, that each member of his
    committee held his/her nose while signing it...

  10. "S Curtiss" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:hjyqg.29215$FR1.22681@dukeread05...

    Quoted message said:


    "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "S Curtiss" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:_Ucqg.29157$FR1.9905@dukeread05...

    Quoted message said:

    Ed on Ed:

    Jun 28 2006 1:47 am

    "Usenet is strictly for idiots, [censored] and jerks - positively no
    exceptions! When I am on Usenet I try to be the biggest idiot, [censored]
    and jerk of them all. I set the standard for one and all. I believe I
    can state with absolute assurance that I am the Greatest Idiot, the
    Greatest [censored] and the Greatest Jerk that usenet has ever known in
    its' long and dishonored history. For Christ's sakes, I prove it every
    time I post. Can't any of you poor [censored] read?

    However, Curtiss is an even bigger Idiot, [censored] and Jerk. I though
    everyone would know this without me having to repeat it endlessly ad
    infinitum.


    You calling me names has no meaning because you have no substance in your
    comments. Your own admissions say so. You have no position, no authority,
    no integrity to even begin to assess my character. Actually, based on your
    history as shown, it is a compliment for you to even try.

    You do not know how to read anymore than you know how to write. My posts are
    just chock full of content, but it is content that you do not like. So what
    else is new?

    Regards,

    Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
    aka
    Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

  11. "S Curtiss" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:j9yqg.29212$FR1.9108@dukeread05...

    Quoted message said:


    "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 13:58:17 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    It's nice that Curtiss has found a hobby: stalking his betters. Yawn.

    Nice to see you two share such high opinions of yourselves. I suppose you
    must as nobody else does....
    It is also nice to see you are obviously so desperate for support of your
    myopic and unsubstantiated opinions you are perfectly content to have a
    bigoted, violent, sexist person who is merely shadowing your views because
    it is a topic he can provoke to further his own ego. Apparently, despite
    your views on road construction, you are even willing to overlook his
    comments as shown on global warming. It is both pathetic and enlightening
    that you would so willingly accept support from someone who is so openly
    antagonistic for no purpose beyond trying to feel superior (and failing).
    But, of course, I suppose you have to take it where you can get it since
    you have no other.

    Curtiss ruins every newsgroup he posts to. How can this be? It can be
    because he posts nothing but boilerplate nonsense over and over. It is as if
    he believed we read his [censored] often enough we will come to believe it.
    However, it has just the opposite effect on me.

    Very funny that he doesn't realize that his [censored] can only influence the
    already brain dead. This includes all mountain bikers of course, but never
    seems to include any hikers. Very mysterious, to say the least!

    Regards,

    Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
    aka
    Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

  12. "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    > Ed on Ed:
    >
    > Jun 28 2006 1:47 am
    >
    > "Usenet is strictly for idiots, [censored] and jerks - positively no
    > exceptions! When I am on Usenet I try to be the biggest idiot, [censored]
    > and jerk of them all. I set the standard for one and all. I believe I
    > can state with absolute assurance that I am the Greatest Idiot, the
    > Greatest [censored] and the Greatest Jerk that usenet has ever known in
    > its' long and dishonored history. For Christ's sakes, I prove it every
    > time I post. Can't any of you poor [censored] read?

    However, Curtiss is an even bigger Idiot, [censored] and Jerk. I though
    everyone would know this without me having to repeat it endlessly ad
    infinitum.


    You calling me names has no meaning because you have no substance in your
    comments. Your own admissions say so. You have no position, no authority,
    no integrity to even begin to assess my character. Actually, based on
    your history as shown, it is a compliment for you to even try.

    You do not know how to read anymore than you know how to write. My posts
    are just chock full of content, but it is content that you do not like. So
    what else is new?


    You still haven't shown anything beyond your own opinion of yourself
    (unsubstantiated by anyone but MV) which would give any indication your
    comments on my presence or character are anything but the ramblings of
    someone whose prescription needs refilled.
    You are more than welcome to claim "content" by proposing a woman is
    brainless and should be raped, someone should be murdered with a shotgun, a
    black man is a n*****, and that you are an idiot. MV is more than welcome to
    stand by you.
    However, your insistence on calling it "content" hardly gives you any
    foundation to criticize anything I have ever posted, little man.

  13. "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    It's nice that Curtiss has found a hobby: stalking his betters. Yawn.

    Nice to see you two share such high opinions of yourselves. I suppose you
    must as nobody else does....
    It is also nice to see you are obviously so desperate for support of your
    myopic and unsubstantiated opinions you are perfectly content to have a
    bigoted, violent, sexist person who is merely shadowing your views
    because it is a topic he can provoke to further his own ego. Apparently,
    despite your views on road construction, you are even willing to overlook
    his comments as shown on global warming. It is both pathetic and
    enlightening that you would so willingly accept support from someone who
    is so openly antagonistic for no purpose beyond trying to feel superior
    (and failing). But, of course, I suppose you have to take it where you
    can get it since you have no other.

    Curtiss ruins every newsgroup he posts to. How can this be? It can be
    because he posts nothing but boilerplate nonsense over and over. It is as
    if he believed we read his [censored] often enough we will come to believe it.
    However, it has just the opposite effect on me.


    Who is "we"? You...? MV...? LOL! I haven't seen anyone else post anything
    negative to my posts but you two. You have no voice to speak for anyone but
    yourself. The fact that voice is weak and pathetic is not my concern.

    Quoted message said:


    Very funny that he doesn't realize that his [censored] can only influence the
    already brain dead. This includes all mountain bikers of course, but never
    seems to include any hikers. Very mysterious, to say the least!

    Since this is primarily a cycling group, I would not expect "hikers" to
    chime in. Even though it is crossed to a few environment or backcountry
    groups, it is likely the name "vandeman" attached has them dumped in the
    majority killfile since it is he that has ruined open discussion on the
    topic in the first place with his closed mind and simple, unfounded
    opinions.
    The fact you chose to parrot his views only deepens the conclusion that your
    interest is purely inflamatory, and therefore, meaningless. It is only out
    of sheer humor at this point I even bother with such an obvious low form of
    course intelligence as yourself.
    Go ahead, call me names again. You might as well get on a skateboard and
    play chicken with a semi... It will have the same effect.

  14. "S Curtiss" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:FOfrg.3287$nK.1783@dukeread05...

    Quoted message said:


    "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    >
    >> Ed on Ed:
    >>
    >> Jun 28 2006 1:47 am
    >>
    >> "Usenet is strictly for idiots, [censored] and jerks - positively no
    >> exceptions! When I am on Usenet I try to be the biggest idiot, [censored]
    >> and jerk of them all. I set the standard for one and all. I believe I
    >> can state with absolute assurance that I am the Greatest Idiot, the
    >> Greatest [censored] and the Greatest Jerk that usenet has ever known in
    >> its' long and dishonored history. For Christ's sakes, I prove it every
    >> time I post. Can't any of you poor [censored] read?
    >
    > However, Curtiss is an even bigger Idiot, [censored] and Jerk. I though
    > everyone would know this without me having to repeat it endlessly ad
    > infinitum.
    You calling me names has no meaning because you have no substance in
    your comments. Your own admissions say so. You have no position, no
    authority, no integrity to even begin to assess my character. Actually,
    based on your history as shown, it is a compliment for you to even try.

    You do not know how to read anymore than you know how to write. My posts
    are just chock full of content, but it is content that you do not like.
    So what else is new?


    You still haven't shown anything beyond your own opinion of yourself
    (unsubstantiated by anyone but MV) which would give any indication your
    comments on my presence or character are anything but the ramblings of
    someone whose prescription needs refilled.
    You are more than welcome to claim "content" by proposing a woman is
    brainless and should be raped, someone should be murdered with a shotgun,
    a black man is a n*****, and that you are an idiot. MV is more than
    welcome to stand by you.
    However, your insistence on calling it "content" hardly gives you any
    foundation to criticize anything I have ever posted, little man.

    "You do not know how to read anymore than you know how to write. My posts
    are just chock full of content, but it is content that you do not like. So
    what else is new?" - Ed Dolan

    Regards,

    Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
    aka
    Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

  15. "S Curtiss" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:O1grg.3516$nK.246@dukeread05...

    Quoted message said:


    "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:


    > It's nice that Curtiss has found a hobby: stalking his betters. Yawn.

    Nice to see you two share such high opinions of yourselves. I suppose
    you must as nobody else does....
    It is also nice to see you are obviously so desperate for support of
    your myopic and unsubstantiated opinions you are perfectly content to
    have a bigoted, violent, sexist person who is merely shadowing your
    views because it is a topic he can provoke to further his own ego.
    Apparently, despite your views on road construction, you are even
    willing to overlook his comments as shown on global warming. It is both
    pathetic and enlightening that you would so willingly accept support
    from someone who is so openly antagonistic for no purpose beyond trying
    to feel superior (and failing). But, of course, I suppose you have to
    take it where you can get it since you have no other.

    Curtiss ruins every newsgroup he posts to. How can this be? It can be
    because he posts nothing but boilerplate nonsense over and over. It is as
    if he believed we read his [censored] often enough we will come to believe it.
    However, it has just the opposite effect on me.


    Who is "we"? You...? MV...? LOL! I haven't seen anyone else post
    anything negative to my posts but you two. You have no voice to speak for
    anyone but yourself. The fact that voice is weak and pathetic is not my
    concern.

    There are only mountain bikers on these groups. As Vandeman would put it ...
    DUH!

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Very funny that he doesn't realize that his [censored] can only influence the
    already brain dead. This includes all mountain bikers of course, but
    never seems to include any hikers. Very mysterious, to say the least!

    Since this is primarily a cycling group, I would not expect "hikers" to
    chime in. Even though it is crossed to a few environment or backcountry
    groups, it is likely the name "vandeman" attached has them dumped in the
    majority killfile since it is he that has ruined open discussion on the
    topic in the first place with his closed mind and simple, unfounded
    opinions.

    Mr. Vandeman presents original material, much of it from the mountain bike
    community itself. You should do the same. You are nothing but a stalker, a
    leech and a blood sucking parasite. You ought to be ashamed of yourself!

    Quoted message said:

    The fact you chose to parrot his views only deepens the conclusion that
    your interest is purely inflamatory, and therefore, meaningless. It is
    only out of sheer humor at this point I even bother with such an obvious
    low form of course intelligence as yourself.
    Go ahead, call me names again. You might as well get on a skateboard and
    play chicken with a semi... It will have the same effect.

    I am convinced there is no one on RBS except for those few who are involved
    with this particular subject. You are only posting to the already converted
    which are the mountain bikers on AMB. You have killed RBS. I am not going to
    get involved at all with the environmental groups which is Vandeman
    territory. I am shortly going to leave RBS, but I will say in parting that
    Vandeman deserves far more than you and Foster. He is a giant and the two of
    you are pygmies.

    Regards,

    Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
    aka
    Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

  16. On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 14:09:16 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 13:58:17 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    It's nice that Curtiss has found a hobby: stalking his betters. Yawn.

    Nice to see you two share such high opinions of yourselves. I suppose you
    must as nobody else does....
    It is also nice to see you are obviously so desperate for support of your
    myopic and unsubstantiated opinions you are perfectly content to have a
    bigoted, violent, sexist person who is merely shadowing your views because
    it is a topic he can provoke to further his own ego. Apparently, despite
    your views on road construction, you are even willing to overlook his
    comments as shown on global warming. It is both pathetic and enlightening
    that you would so willingly accept support from someone who is so openly
    antagonistic for no purpose beyond trying to feel superior (and failing).
    But, of course, I suppose you have to take it where you can get it since you
    have no other.

    Did you say something?
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  17. On Thu, 6 Jul 2006 18:05:18 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    >
    >> Ed on Ed:
    >>
    >> Jun 28 2006 1:47 am
    >>
    >> "Usenet is strictly for idiots, [censored] and jerks - positively no
    >> exceptions! When I am on Usenet I try to be the biggest idiot, [censored]
    >> and jerk of them all. I set the standard for one and all. I believe I
    >> can state with absolute assurance that I am the Greatest Idiot, the
    >> Greatest [censored] and the Greatest Jerk that usenet has ever known in
    >> its' long and dishonored history. For Christ's sakes, I prove it every
    >> time I post. Can't any of you poor [censored] read?
    >
    > However, Curtiss is an even bigger Idiot, [censored] and Jerk. I though
    > everyone would know this without me having to repeat it endlessly ad
    > infinitum.
    You calling me names has no meaning because you have no substance in your
    comments. Your own admissions say so. You have no position, no authority,
    no integrity to even begin to assess my character. Actually, based on
    your history as shown, it is a compliment for you to even try.

    You do not know how to read anymore than you know how to write. My posts
    are just chock full of content, but it is content that you do not like. So
    what else is new?


    You still haven't shown anything beyond your own opinion of yourself
    (unsubstantiated by anyone but MV) which would give any indication your
    comments on my presence or character are anything but the ramblings of
    someone whose prescription needs refilled.
    You are more than welcome to claim "content" by proposing a woman is
    brainless and should be raped, someone should be murdered with a shotgun, a
    black man is a n*****, and that you are an idiot. MV is more than welcome to
    stand by you.
    However, your insistence on calling it "content" hardly gives you any
    foundation to criticize anything I have ever posted, little man.

    Did you say something?
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  18. On Thu, 6 Jul 2006 18:21:26 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:


    > It's nice that Curtiss has found a hobby: stalking his betters. Yawn.

    Nice to see you two share such high opinions of yourselves. I suppose you
    must as nobody else does....
    It is also nice to see you are obviously so desperate for support of your
    myopic and unsubstantiated opinions you are perfectly content to have a
    bigoted, violent, sexist person who is merely shadowing your views
    because it is a topic he can provoke to further his own ego. Apparently,
    despite your views on road construction, you are even willing to overlook
    his comments as shown on global warming. It is both pathetic and
    enlightening that you would so willingly accept support from someone who
    is so openly antagonistic for no purpose beyond trying to feel superior
    (and failing). But, of course, I suppose you have to take it where you
    can get it since you have no other.

    Curtiss ruins every newsgroup he posts to. How can this be? It can be
    because he posts nothing but boilerplate nonsense over and over. It is as
    if he believed we read his [censored] often enough we will come to believe it.
    However, it has just the opposite effect on me.


    Who is "we"? You...? MV...? LOL! I haven't seen anyone else post anything
    negative to my posts but you two. You have no voice to speak for anyone but
    yourself. The fact that voice is weak and pathetic is not my concern.

    Quoted message said:


    Very funny that he doesn't realize that his [censored] can only influence the
    already brain dead. This includes all mountain bikers of course, but never
    seems to include any hikers. Very mysterious, to say the least!

    Since this is primarily a cycling group, I would not expect "hikers" to
    chime in. Even though it is crossed to a few environment or backcountry
    groups, it is likely the name "vandeman" attached has them dumped in the
    majority killfile since it is he that has ruined open discussion on the
    topic in the first place with his closed mind and simple, unfounded
    opinions.
    The fact you chose to parrot his views only deepens the conclusion that your
    interest is purely inflamatory, and therefore, meaningless. It is only out
    of sheer humor at this point I even bother with such an obvious low form of
    course intelligence as yourself.
    Go ahead, call me names again. You might as well get on a skateboard and
    play chicken with a semi... It will have the same effect.

    Yawn.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  19. "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:


    "S Curtiss" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:O1grg.3516$nK.246@dukeread05...

    Quoted message said:


    "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    >
    >> It's nice that Curtiss has found a hobby: stalking his betters.
    >> Yawn.
    >
    > Nice to see you two share such high opinions of yourselves. I
    > suppose you must as nobody else does....
    > It is also nice to see you are obviously so desperate for support
    > of your myopic and unsubstantiated opinions you are perfectly
    > content to have a bigoted, violent, sexist person who is merely
    > shadowing your views because it is a topic he can provoke to
    > further his own ego. Apparently, despite your views on road
    > construction, you are even willing to overlook his comments as
    > shown on global warming. It is both pathetic and enlightening that
    > you would so willingly accept support from someone who is so openly
    > antagonistic for no purpose beyond trying to feel superior (and
    > failing). But, of course, I suppose you have to take it where you
    > can get it since you have no other.

    Curtiss ruins every newsgroup he posts to. How can this be? It can
    be because he posts nothing but boilerplate nonsense over and over.
    It is as if he believed we read his [censored] often enough we will come
    to believe it. However, it has just the opposite effect on me.


    Who is "we"? You...? MV...? LOL! I haven't seen anyone else post
    anything negative to my posts but you two. You have no voice to speak
    for anyone but yourself. The fact that voice is weak and pathetic is
    not my concern.

    There are only mountain bikers on these groups. As Vandeman would put
    it ... DUH!

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Very funny that he doesn't realize that his [censored] can only influence
    the already brain dead. This includes all mountain bikers of course,
    but never seems to include any hikers. Very mysterious, to say the
    least!

    Since this is primarily a cycling group, I would not expect "hikers"
    to chime in. Even though it is crossed to a few environment or
    backcountry groups, it is likely the name "vandeman" attached has
    them dumped in the majority killfile since it is he that has ruined
    open discussion on the topic in the first place with his closed mind
    and simple, unfounded opinions.

    Mr. Vandeman presents original material, much of it from the mountain
    bike community itself. You should do the same. You are nothing but a
    stalker, a leech and a blood sucking parasite. You ought to be ashamed
    of yourself!

    Quoted message said:

    The fact you chose to parrot his views only deepens the conclusion
    that your interest is purely inflamatory, and therefore, meaningless.
    It is only out of sheer humor at this point I even bother with such
    an obvious low form of course intelligence as yourself.
    Go ahead, call me names again. You might as well get on a skateboard
    and play chicken with a semi... It will have the same effect.

    I am convinced there is no one on RBS except for those few who are
    involved with this particular subject. You are only posting to the
    already converted which are the mountain bikers on AMB. You have
    killed RBS. I am not going to get involved at all with the
    environmental groups which is Vandeman territory. I am shortly going
    to leave RBS

    Great. Dont let the door hit you in the ass on your way out

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

  20. On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 05:15:05 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]>
    said in <[email hidden]>:

    Quoted message said:

    Did you say something?

    Sure did, but since you are all transmit and no receive you wouldn't
    have heard.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

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