Mountain Biking FAQ

On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 22:54:28 -0700, "GaryG" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 17:56:54 -0700, "GaryG" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 18:44:15 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 03:17:31 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]>
> >said in <[email hidden]>:
> >
> >>What's polite about a threat? Mountain bikers regularly threaten and
> >>assault people who disagree with them.
> >
> >Could be worse, they could be so inhuman as to post gleeful reports of
> >the deaths of people to whose recreation choices they bear an
> >irrational hatred.
>
> Hmmm. Threats and assaults are ILLEGAL. There's nothing ILLEGAL about
> posting FACTS about how dangerous mountain biking is. It's a PUBLIC
> SERVICE. But you wouldn't understand.

Except your "public service" ignores similar deaths and injuries

sustained

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

by hikers.

Of course! This newsgroup is about MOUNTAIN BIKING! HELLO!

Dumbass...you're also cross-posting to rec.backcountry, ca.environment, and
sci.environment. The point was that you claim to be a "scientist", but you
only include evidence that supports your preconceived opinions.

That's a LIE, and you know it. I included all the "evidence" supplied
by IMBA.

Quoted message said:

In reality, your "public service" is nothing more than a reflection of your
mental illness and obsessions.

BTW - when was the last time you had sex (solo masturbation excluded)? I'm
of the opinion that persistent obsessive trolls, like you, are mostly
celibate, and that their diatribes represent an outlet for repressed sexual
needs (giving them, among other things, the attention from others that they
lack in the real world).

Your pop-psychology is duly noted. Of course, I have Ph.D. in the
REAL THING.

Quoted message said:

GG

Quoted message said:

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Mike Vandeman said:

That's a LIE, and you know it. I included all the "evidence" supplied
by IMBA.

That's a lie and you no it. You discarded what you didn't like and used
out of context the rest.

Quoted message said:

Your pop-psychology is duly noted. Of course, I have Ph.D. in the
REAL THING.

Yes it's true that you have a Ph.D, too bad its in the Ph.D version of
under water basket weaving (a make up credit course we've all had to do
at one time or another) so it's literally not worth the paper it's
written on.

Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
March 5, 2004

1. Why do people mountain bike?

Becacause they like to, it is fun and you can get a great workout.

Quoted message said:

2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking?

The desire to do it. People enjoy it, and people will do what they
enjoy.

Quoted message said:

3. What harm does mountain biking do?

About the same as hiking.

Quoted message said:

4. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater environmental
impact than hiking. Is that true?

Yes

Quoted message said:

5. Where should mountain biking allowed?

In the same location where it is allowed now

Quoted message said:

6. What should the policy be on trails?

Open to all except where posted.

Quoted message said:

7. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and equestrians on trails,
but not mountain bikers?

No more discriminatory than say allowing equestrians and mountain bikers
and not allowing hikers.

Quoted message said:

8. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public lands?

No, depends on the land manager.

Quoted message said:

9. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail construction
and trail maintenance?

Yes.

Quoted message said:

10. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by being able to
quickly summon help in the event of an emergency?

Yes

Quoted message said:

11. Can't mountain biking help get our overweight kids off the couch?

Yes

Quoted message said:

12. Doesn't mountain biking get people out of their cars?

Yes

Quoted message said:

13. Doesn't the threat from mountain biking pale, in comparison to
other sources of environmental damage, such as logging?

Yes

Quoted message said:

14. What's wrong with night riding?

Nothing

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 22:54:28 -0700, "GaryG" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 17:56:54 -0700, "GaryG" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

>"Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
>news:[email hidden]...
>> On Sun, 23 Jul 2006 18:44:15 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
>> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>
>> >On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 03:17:31 GMT, Mike Vandeman

<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> >said in <[email hidden]>:
>> >
>> >>What's polite about a threat? Mountain bikers regularly threaten

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> >>assault people who disagree with them.
>> >
>> >Could be worse, they could be so inhuman as to post gleeful reports

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> >the deaths of people to whose recreation choices they bear an
>> >irrational hatred.
>>
>> Hmmm. Threats and assaults are ILLEGAL. There's nothing ILLEGAL

about

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> posting FACTS about how dangerous mountain biking is. It's a PUBLIC
>> SERVICE. But you wouldn't understand.
>
>Except your "public service" ignores similar deaths and injuries

sustained

Quoted message said:

>by hikers.

Of course! This newsgroup is about MOUNTAIN BIKING! HELLO!

Dumbass...you're also cross-posting to rec.backcountry, ca.environment,

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

sci.environment. The point was that you claim to be a "scientist", but

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

only include evidence that supports your preconceived opinions.

That's a LIE, and you know it. I included all the "evidence" supplied
by IMBA.

Quoted message said:

In reality, your "public service" is nothing more than a reflection of

your

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mental illness and obsessions.

BTW - when was the last time you had sex (solo masturbation excluded)?

I'm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the opinion that persistent obsessive trolls, like you, are mostly
celibate, and that their diatribes represent an outlet for repressed

sexual

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

needs (giving them, among other things, the attention from others that

they

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

lack in the real world).

Your pop-psychology is duly noted. Of course, I have Ph.D. in the
REAL THING.

Failure to answer the question duly noted (yet again).

BTW - just because one happens to have a Ph.D. in psychology doesn't mean
that one is immune to mental illness.

GG

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

GG

Quoted message said:

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Chris Foster said:

Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
March 5, 2004

1. Why do people mountain bike?

Becacause they like to, it is fun and you can get a great workout.

Caca is exactly right. It's because they are too lazy to WALK, which
is better exercise and more fun.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking?

The desire to do it. People enjoy it, and people will do what they
enjoy.

Impotence and broken bones are fun? You are fooling only yourself.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3. What harm does mountain biking do?

About the same as hiking.

You know that's a LIE: http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

4. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater environmental
impact than hiking. Is that true?

Yes

BS, or, in your terminology, caca.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

5. Where should mountain biking allowed?

In the same location where it is allowed now

Only on pavement.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

6. What should the policy be on trails?

Open to all except where posted.

Mountain bikers rip out all "no bikes" signs, so this doesn't work. It
must be "closed unless designated open. And it should NEVER be
deiignated open.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

7. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and equestrians on trails,
but not mountain bikers?

No more discriminatory than say allowing equestrians and mountain bikers
and not allowing hikers.

None are discriminatory, as long as the rules are the same for
everyone.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

8. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public lands?

No, depends on the land manager.

BS. There is no such "right".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

9. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail construction
and trail maintenance?

Yes.

It's nothing but "brown-nosing".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

10. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by being able to
quickly summon help in the event of an emergency?

Yes

It's not worth the damage they do. They actually CAUSE accidents and
emergencies.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

11. Can't mountain biking help get our overweight kids off the couch?

Yes

BS. No more than hiking.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

12. Doesn't mountain biking get people out of their cars?

Yes

BS. Mountain bikers use cars & trucks to get to the trailhead.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

13. Doesn't the threat from mountain biking pale, in comparison to
other sources of environmental damage, such as logging?

Yes

BS. Mountain biking creates people who don't care about nature, and
don't oppose logging, unless it's in their neighborhood (it never is).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

14. What's wrong with night riding?

Nothing

Liar.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Chris Foster said:

Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
March 5, 2004

1. Why do people mountain bike?

Becacause they like to, it is fun and you can get a great workout.

Caca is exactly right. It's because they are too lazy to WALK, which
is better exercise and more fun.

Walking burns far less carories per unit time. Better ?? No.
I am a hiker and I ride my roadie. They both have their merits. More
fun, both are nice.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking?

The desire to do it. People enjoy it, and people will do what they
enjoy.

Impotence and broken bones are fun? You are fooling only yourself.

I am not impotence, nor have I broken any bones during my 2 year time
riding a mountain bike. Going back to your original question "What is
driving the sport of mountain biking?", it is fun and people do enjoy it,
so they will continue to do so.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3. What harm does mountain biking do?

About the same as hiking.

You know that's a LIE: http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.

Mickey, you are just justifying. Some mean old nasty mountain biker
scared you on a hike once 10 year ago, he was rude and it [censored] you off.
I have never experienced it, but I do know a person who has. She was
also not happy about it, but she is not on a life long crusade to wipe
out all off-road cycling either

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

4. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater

environmental

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

impact than hiking. Is that true?

Yes

BS, or, in your terminology, caca.

Where is the evidence? I have seen environmental impacts from all forms
of human incursion into the wilderness;

Hiking
Cycling
Equestians

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

5. Where should mountain biking allowed?

In the same location where it is allowed now

Only on pavement.

We disagree. You havent supported your arguement such that I will change
my mind. So we will continue to disagree

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

6. What should the policy be on trails?

Open to all except where posted.

Mountain bikers rip out all "no bikes" signs, so this doesn't work. It
must be "closed unless designated open. And it should NEVER be
deiignated open.

We disagree. You havent supported your arguement such that I will change
my mind. So we will continue to disagree

You, me, all of us need to try to stop anyone from destroying park signs

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

7. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and equestrians on trails,
but not mountain bikers?

No more discriminatory than say allowing equestrians and mountain

bikers

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and not allowing hikers.

None are discriminatory, as long as the rules are the same for
everyone.

Correct, equal access for all. We agree

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

8. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public lands?

No, depends on the land manager.

BS. There is no such "right".

You are playing simantics. We Americans have the Bill of Rights, other
than that, I know no other rights.

Mountain bikers should have equal access to most (note the word MOST
here) of the available public lands, as hikers and equestians do.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

9. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail construction
and trail maintenance?

Yes.

It's nothing but "brown-nosing".

Come on Mike, you know there is a fair share of Mountain bikers, along
with other trail users, who are helpful, and do some good things, like
trail construction. There are some that dont

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

10. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by being able to
quickly summon help in the event of an emergency?

Yes

It's not worth the damage they do. They actually CAUSE accidents and
emergencies.

It may happen once and a while, but for most part, can provide added
safety, by being able to quickly summon help in the event of an emergency

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

11. Can't mountain biking help get our overweight kids off the couch?

Yes

BS. No more than hiking.

Equal access.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

12. Doesn't mountain biking get people out of their cars?

Yes

BS. Mountain bikers use cars & trucks to get to the trailhead.

So do hikers and equestians.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

13. Doesn't the threat from mountain biking pale, in comparison to
other sources of environmental damage, such as logging?

Yes

BS. Mountain biking creates people who don't care about nature, and
don't oppose logging, unless it's in their neighborhood (it never is).

I rode a mountain bike for 2 years, and it made me love the outdoors even
more. Logging on the other hand, is complete and utter destuction

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

14. What's wrong with night riding?

Nothing

Liar.

So what is wrong with night riding?

Sorry for the typo's

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Chris Foster said:

Quoted message said:

1. Why do people mountain bike?

Becacause they like to, it is fun and you can get a great workout.

Caca is exactly right. It's because they are too lazy to WALK, which
is better exercise and more fun.

Your OPINION of the activity is not a filter for determining the advantages
for anyone else. DUH!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking?

The desire to do it. People enjoy it, and people will do what they
enjoy.

Impotence and broken bones are fun? You are fooling only yourself.

Impotence is a greater concern to road cyclists with the forward seating
position. Veyond that, proper adjustment and fit reduce the probability.
Perhaps you should read about it instead of just picking out the parts that
fit your OPINION.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3. What harm does mountain biking do?

About the same as hiking.

You know that's a LIE: http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.

Referfence to yourself is invalid. The science AND those who make and
enforce the rules of access and use have determined the activities are
comparable. Your OPINION of the activity does not disqualify supportive
research. DUH!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

4. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater environmental
impact than hiking. Is that true?

Yes

BS, or, in your terminology, caca.

Your OPINION... again.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

5. Where should mountain biking allowed?

In the same location where it is allowed now

Only on pavement.

Then it is not "mountain biking". You MUST use correct and accepted
terminology.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

6. What should the policy be on trails?

Open to all except where posted.

Mountain bikers rip out all "no bikes" signs, so this doesn't work. It
must be "closed unless designated open. And it should NEVER be
deiignated open.

Non-statement. Anecdotal.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

7. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and equestrians on trails,
but not mountain bikers?

No more discriminatory than say allowing equestrians and mountain bikers
and not allowing hikers.

None are discriminatory, as long as the rules are the same for
everyone.

They are. See the NFS rulings. IMBA has qualified and internationally
accepted guidelines. Park systems also. Your OPINION of these rules and of
the activities allowed by them is a non-issue.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

8. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public lands?

No, depends on the land manager.

BS. There is no such "right".

Perhaps... if you want to split hairs. (Which is common for you) However,
"legal access" is granted based on the locallity.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

9. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail construction
and trail maintenance?

Yes.

It's nothing but "brown-nosing".

More OPINION.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

10. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by being able to
quickly summon help in the event of an emergency?

Yes

It's not worth the damage they do. They actually CAUSE accidents and
emergencies.

Anecdotal. OPINION. Injuries occur within all sectors of recreation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

11. Can't mountain biking help get our overweight kids off the couch?

Yes

BS. No more than hiking.

Non-statement. OPINION.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

12. Doesn't mountain biking get people out of their cars?

Yes

BS. Mountain bikers use cars & trucks to get to the trailhead.

Non-statement. Anecdotal. Hikers also drive to the trail.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

13. Doesn't the threat from mountain biking pale, in comparison to
other sources of environmental damage, such as logging?

Yes

BS. Mountain biking creates people who don't care about nature, and
don't oppose logging, unless it's in their neighborhood (it never is).

The numbers do not reflect this. Off-road cyclists in general are very
active in preservation causes. Recreation in the outdoors has proven to be a
catylist for concern in preservation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

14. What's wrong with night riding?

Nothing

Liar.

Non-statement. No basis at all to call CF a "liar".

Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Bill Sornson said:

Mike Vandeman said:

I just gave my mountain biking paper at the EIGHTH international
scientific conference

What conference? Where? When? Details, please!

It's on my web site. Learn to read.

I went to your web site and found nothing about an "EIGHTH international
scientific conference" Could you please help me out and give some details
here, in this form.

Quoted message said:

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Aaron W. LaFramboise said:

On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 16:24:55 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Of course. Wildlife have already lost 95% (?) of their habitat, and
can't afford to lose any more. Banning bikes is the only way that
everyone can have equal access to natural areas, since the presence of
bikes on trails drives hikers off the trails and out of the parks.

This does seem to be a sorry state of affairs. According to the FAO,
about 40% of Earth's availible land area is used for farming and
pastures. I suppose these are the areas that were formerly home to
the most important ecologies.

I am curious though. What are you really asking for in the long run?
Hypothetically, once mountain bikers are off the trails, will you seek
general trail closure (including hikers) as well?

Not mountain BIKERS, BICYCLES! No one has ever advocated banning
mountain BIKERS from trails. As you can easily see from my signature
and web site, I am also advocating designating some areas off-limits
to ALL humans, which obviously includes hikers.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I can't see any reason to allow the destruction of our natural areas.
Mountain bikers CLAIM to love nature, but actively DESTROY it by
mountain biking. That makes no sense. If you don't care about nature,
be a man, and admit it. Don't PRETEND to care.

It's my perception, based on my reading so far, that some mountain
bikers do appreciate nature, and some don't particularly.

I'm not talking about SENTIMENT. People who REALLY care about wildlife
ACT like it, and don't, for example, mountain bike.

Although

Quoted message said:

you may not agree, many mountain bikers seem to be very similar to
hikers in mindset; the bicycle is only a tool to go faster.

That may seem to you like a small difference, but it is actually a
MAJOR difference. People who want to see wildlife WALK. There's no way
you can look at wildlife, while on top of a bike. Bikers miss most of
the willdife, which is not something you can watch while biking "fast"
or even "slow": you will CRASH if you pay attention to anything but
the trail & the bike. Why do you think people hike? It is to get close
to nature. On top of a bike, you can't even feel the ground.

Mike,
I am glad you brought that up again. I just finished a week long back
pack in RMNP, Im not sure where you hike, but I spent a majority on my
time looking at the ground directly in front on me, trying not to trip
and fall. While I am hiking, I am not 'looking around' to enjoy nature
as you state, but looking for foot tangles (tree roots, loose rocks,
etc...).

When I rode a mountain bike, I actually spent more time 'looking
around' and enjoying nature. A root that would trip me hiking, is simply
rolled over when mountain biking, with less damage to the root I might
add.

So, I feel your argument is not based at all on experience or fact.

Quoted message said:

(What is

Quoted message said:

the proper and moral speed at which nature should be enjoyed? I
cannot say.)

There is a practical limit. You can go fast, as in a car or on a bike,
but then you miss almost everything. "Scenic drives" are BS. People
who want to see nature get out of their car or off their bike and
WALK. About 7 million years of human evolution led to that tradition.

Quoted message said:

Also, many mountain bikers do not seem to appreciate living things
specifically, but rather the outdoor environmental in general: the
mountains, the rocks, the streams, the clean air. Maybe this is
another moral failing, but I am not really sure.

I'm sure ATV users also say they like being in nature. But what they
don't say is how their presence DESTROYS that very nature. An ATV
rider is kidding himself if he thinks he is exepriencing nature. Most
wildlife will have long since run away. The same goes for mountain
bikers. Even hikers scare wildlife away, but they do it a lot less,
because they can't travel as far as a biker or ATV rider.

Quoted message said:

Have you read Gordon R. Cessford's paper
<http://www.mbosc.org/Impacts>? It is very similar in topic to your
"Review of Literature" presentation, but he draws a distinctly
different conclusion. Of primary interest (to me) is his discussion
of the socialogical aspect of trail use conflicts.

Gordon Cessford's objective is to excuse mountain biking. He doesn't
tell the truth about mountain biking impacts. Notice how he accepts
studies like Wilson & Seney at face value, when in fact, the study is
WORTHLESS. Anyone who read it would know that. They didn't measure
erosion properly. I discussed that in my paper.

The "sociological" material in his paper is irrelevant. I don't care
what mountain bikers claim to believe. Their ACTIONS are what count.
The wildlife don't care what they believe, either. "Sociological" and
"psychological" studies are notoriously unreliable. If people were
judged by their ACTIONS, the studies would be far more useful. The
mountain bikers KNOW that they are being interviewed in order to
improve the image of mountain biking, so that biases their responses.
Cessford is nothing but a dishonest apologist for mountain biking.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Paul Cassel said:

Mike Vandeman said:

You aren't being honest. Hikers are the people who got those lands
protected in the first place, so you can go there. Mountain bikers do
MUCH more damage than hikers do, on average.

You're being ignorant. Here, the damage is by hikers and the repairs by
mtn biker volunteers. I'm not saying that the hikers do a lot of

damage,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but they do some by crossing virgin territory which is very fragile due
to the nature of our high desert. Mtn bikers do not cross trails.

I see FREQUENTLY photos of mountain bikers ridoing off-road in the
desert. And I am not even looking for that.

Here is a guy who ACTUALLY involved in trail maintenance in his area.
He states that hikers are the problem in his area and the executive
director of the division of the maintenance states that it is mountain
bikers are the ones actually involved in trail maintenance, contradicting
everything Mikey believes. I feel a LIAR coming soon!

Quoted message said:

I

Quoted message said:

think they don't because the desert flora would ruin their tires, but
the FACT is that they don't. Hikers do (some).

My information is not from me or from mtn bikers, but from the

executive

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

director of the division who is in charge of maintaining these
recreational areas. I was surprised to hear these things too.

Quoted message said:

BS. Hikers don't build illegal trails. Mountain bikers do that all

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

time. They love riding off-trail and building their own trails
illegally. For example, 3 mountain bikers were caught red-handed
building a 4-mile-long trail accross 4 different jurisdictions in
Marin County, CA.

Build? I didn't say hikers build anything which is much of the problem.

Why? Trail construction destroys habitat.

Quoted message said:

Mtn bikers build and maintain the trails which are multi use. Hikers

use

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

them and cross from trail to trail despite pleas not to from the
conservation office of the State. In these crossings (not built trails)
they trample fragile flora and hurt the habitat of endangered
invertebrate species.

They also disrupt the fauna by taking their dogs along which add
pollution and also the dogs harass the local fauna by chasing or

killing

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

what they can. Bikers take no dogs.

Mountain bikers don't have dogs? That's the first I've heard of that.
Oh, yes, the dog might bark and give them away as they are riding
illegally, e.g. at night.

Quoted message said:

-paul

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"Paul Cassel" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
[...]

Quoted message said:

They [hikers] also disrupt the fauna by taking their dogs along which
add pollution and also the dogs harass the local fauna by chasing or
killing what they can. Bikers take no dogs.

I have seen that too Paul and it just outrages me every time I
encounter it. The dog is running loose and chasing small animals and
killing them. Not only that, but a dog will constitute a nuisance to
other hikers. It has got to be illegal to do this sort of thing
surely!

I have run into it on the trails around Aspen and it is always the
locals who are doing it. They seem to think the natural areas are
their back yards and they can do as they please. And where the hell
are the rangers? They are never around when needed. I think they are
back at headquarters shuffling papers like all good bureaucrats.

I hate to tell you this, but if you are a local, your back yard is your
back yard. It also may be a National forest, but it is your back yard.

I also saw a 'local' running his dog by holding the dog leash outside of
his pickup truck window and having the dog run next to the truck at 15 mph.
What an ass? Dont you think. I saw this back in the midwest, not here in
Colorado.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Chris Foster said:

Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Chris Foster said:

Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

> Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
> Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
> March 5, 2004
>
> 1. Why do people mountain bike?

Becacause they like to, it is fun and you can get a great workout.

Caca is exactly right. It's because they are too lazy to WALK, which
is better exercise and more fun.

Walking burns far less carories per unit time.

Depends on conditions. Downhill mountain biking burns hardly any
calories.

Better ?? No.

Quoted message said:

I am a hiker and I ride my roadie. They both have their merits. More
fun, both are nice.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking?

The desire to do it. People enjoy it, and people will do what they
enjoy.

Impotence and broken bones are fun? You are fooling only yourself.

I am not impotence, nor have I broken any bones during my 2 year time
riding a mountain bike. Going back to your original question "What is
driving the sport of mountain biking?", it is fun and people do enjoy it,
so they will continue to do so.

Only fun for mountain bikers. It's a big pain to everyone else.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 3. What harm does mountain biking do?

About the same as hiking.

You know that's a LIE: http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.

Mickey, you are just justifying. Some mean old nasty mountain biker
scared you on a hike once 10 year ago,

You are LYING. You have no idea why I choose to tell the truth about
mountain biking.

he was rude and it [censored] you off.

Quoted message said:

I have never experienced it, but I do know a person who has. She was
also not happy about it, but she is not on a life long crusade to wipe
out all off-road cycling either

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 4. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater

environmental

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> impact than hiking. Is that true?

Yes

BS, or, in your terminology, caca.

Where is the evidence? I have seen environmental impacts from all forms
of human incursion into the wilderness;

Hiking
Cycling
Equestians

I already gave the reference. Anecdotal evidence means nothing.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 5. Where should mountain biking allowed?

In the same location where it is allowed now

Only on pavement.

We disagree. You havent supported your arguement such that I will change
my mind. So we will continue to disagree

You don't care about impacts, obviously.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 6. What should the policy be on trails?

Open to all except where posted.

Mountain bikers rip out all "no bikes" signs, so this doesn't work. It
must be "closed unless designated open. And it should NEVER be
deiignated open.

We disagree. You havent supported your arguement such that I will change
my mind. So we will continue to disagree

You, me, all of us need to try to stop anyone from destroying park signs

It's easy to do: make trails closed unless signed open.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 7. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and equestrians on trails,
> but not mountain bikers?

No more discriminatory than say allowing equestrians and mountain

bikers

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and not allowing hikers.

None are discriminatory, as long as the rules are the same for
everyone.

Correct, equal access for all. We agree

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 8. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public lands?

No, depends on the land manager.

BS. There is no such "right".

You are playing simantics. We Americans have the Bill of Rights, other
than that, I know no other rights.

That's just what I said: there's no right to mountain bike.

Quoted message said:

Mountain bikers should have equal access to most (note the word MOST
here) of the available public lands, as hikers and equestians do.

They already DO.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 9. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail construction
> and trail maintenance?

Yes.

It's nothing but "brown-nosing".

Come on Mike, you know there is a fair share of Mountain bikers, along
with other trail users, who are helpful, and do some good things, like
trail construction. There are some that dont

BS.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 10. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by being able to
> quickly summon help in the event of an emergency?

Yes

It's not worth the damage they do. They actually CAUSE accidents and
emergencies.

It may happen once and a while, but for most part, can provide added
safety, by being able to quickly summon help in the event of an emergency

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 11. Can't mountain biking help get our overweight kids off the couch?

Yes

BS. No more than hiking.

Equal access.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 12. Doesn't mountain biking get people out of their cars?

Yes

BS. Mountain bikers use cars & trucks to get to the trailhead.

So do hikers and equestians.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 13. Doesn't the threat from mountain biking pale, in comparison to
> other sources of environmental damage, such as logging?

Yes

BS. Mountain biking creates people who don't care about nature, and
don't oppose logging, unless it's in their neighborhood (it never is).

I rode a mountain bike for 2 years, and it made me love the outdoors even
more. Logging on the other hand, is complete and utter destuction

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 14. What's wrong with night riding?

Nothing

Liar.

So what is wrong with night riding?

Sorry for the typo's

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Chris Foster said:

Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Chris Foster said:

Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

> Frequently Asked Questions about Mountain Biking
> Michael Vandeman, Ph.D.
> March 5, 2004
>
> 1. Why do people mountain bike?

Becacause they like to, it is fun and you can get a great workout.

Caca is exactly right. It's because they are too lazy to WALK, which
is better exercise and more fun.

Walking burns far less carories per unit time. Better ?? No.
I am a hiker and I ride my roadie. They both have their merits. More
fun, both are nice.

Depends. Downhill mountain biking uses hardly any calories.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking?

The desire to do it. People enjoy it, and people will do what they
enjoy.

Impotence and broken bones are fun? You are fooling only yourself.

I am not impotence, nor have I broken any bones during my 2 year time
riding a mountain bike. Going back to your original question "What is
driving the sport of mountain biking?", it is fun and people do enjoy it,
so they will continue to do so.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> 3. What harm does mountain biking do?

About the same as hiking.

You know that's a LIE: http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.

Mickey, you are just justifying. Some mean old nasty mountain biker
scared you on a hike once 10 year ago, he was rude and it [censored] you off.
I have never experienced it, but I do know a person who has. She was
also not happy about it, but she is not on a life long crusade to wipe
out all off-road cycling either

You are LYING again. You just fabricated that, and you know it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 4. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater

environmental

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> impact than hiking. Is that true?

Yes

BS, or, in your terminology, caca.

Where is the evidence? I have seen environmental impacts from all forms
of human incursion into the wilderness;

Hiking
Cycling
Equestians

Irrelevent. What's important is impacts per user. You can't draw any
conclusions from a comparison of one trail used by 100 mountain bikers
with another used by 10,000 hikers.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 5. Where should mountain biking allowed?

In the same location where it is allowed now

Only on pavement.

We disagree. You havent supported your arguement such that I will change
my mind. So we will continue to disagree

You obviously don't care about science or impacts.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 6. What should the policy be on trails?

Open to all except where posted.

Mountain bikers rip out all "no bikes" signs, so this doesn't work. It
must be "closed unless designated open. And it should NEVER be
deiignated open.

We disagree. You havent supported your arguement such that I will change
my mind. So we will continue to disagree

You, me, all of us need to try to stop anyone from destroying park signs

It's easy to fix: Make the trails closed unless signed open.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 7. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and equestrians on trails,
> but not mountain bikers?

No more discriminatory than say allowing equestrians and mountain

bikers

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and not allowing hikers.

None are discriminatory, as long as the rules are the same for
everyone.

Correct, equal access for all. We agree

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 8. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public lands?

No, depends on the land manager.

BS. There is no such "right".

You are playing simantics. We Americans have the Bill of Rights, other
than that, I know no other rights.

That's what I just said: there's no right to mountain bike.

Quoted message said:

Mountain bikers should have equal access to most (note the word MOST
here) of the available public lands, as hikers and equestians do.

They already DO have equal access.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 9. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail construction
> and trail maintenance?

Yes.

It's nothing but "brown-nosing".

Come on Mike, you know there is a fair share of Mountain bikers, along
with other trail users, who are helpful, and do some good things, like
trail construction. There are some that dont

Until they realized they weren't getting to ride trails, they did NO
trail maintenance.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 10. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by being able to
> quickly summon help in the event of an emergency?

Yes

It's not worth the damage they do. They actually CAUSE accidents and
emergencies.

It may happen once and a while, but for most part, can provide added
safety, by being able to quickly summon help in the event of an emergency

Not when they CAUSE the emergency. There is no net benefit.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 11. Can't mountain biking help get our overweight kids off the couch?

Yes

BS. No more than hiking.

Equal access.

You already have equal access.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 12. Doesn't mountain biking get people out of their cars?

Yes

BS. Mountain bikers use cars & trucks to get to the trailhead.

So do hikers and equestians.

Irrelevant to whether mountain biking gets people out of their cars.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 13. Doesn't the threat from mountain biking pale, in comparison to
> other sources of environmental damage, such as logging?

Yes

BS. Mountain biking creates people who don't care about nature, and
don't oppose logging, unless it's in their neighborhood (it never is).

I rode a mountain bike for 2 years, and it made me love the outdoors even
more. Logging on the other hand, is complete and utter destuction

Loggers say that they love the forest too. You are BOTH lying. Love
doesn't engender destruction.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 14. What's wrong with night riding?

Nothing

Liar.

So what is wrong with night riding?

Killing animals & plants & preventing them from doing what they want
(hunting, for example).
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 13:41:10 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Chris Foster said:

>
> 1. Why do people mountain bike?

Becacause they like to, it is fun and you can get a great workout.

Caca is exactly right. It's because they are too lazy to WALK, which
is better exercise and more fun.

Your OPINION of the activity is not a filter for determining the advantages
for anyone else. DUH!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking?

The desire to do it. People enjoy it, and people will do what they
enjoy.

Impotence and broken bones are fun? You are fooling only yourself.

Impotence is a greater concern to road cyclists with the forward seating
position. Veyond that, proper adjustment and fit reduce the probability.
Perhaps you should read about it instead of just picking out the parts that
fit your OPINION.

I already did.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 3. What harm does mountain biking do?

About the same as hiking.

You know that's a LIE: http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.

Referfence to yourself is invalid.

Sez you only.

The science AND those who make and

Quoted message said:

enforce the rules of access and use have determined the activities are
comparable. Your OPINION of the activity does not disqualify supportive
research. DUH!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 4. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater environmental
> impact than hiking. Is that true?

Yes

BS, or, in your terminology, caca.

Your OPINION... again.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 5. Where should mountain biking allowed?

In the same location where it is allowed now

Only on pavement.

Then it is not "mountain biking". You MUST use correct and accepted
terminology.

If you are riding a mountain bike, you are mountain biking.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 6. What should the policy be on trails?

Open to all except where posted.

Mountain bikers rip out all "no bikes" signs, so this doesn't work. It
must be "closed unless designated open. And it should NEVER be
deiignated open.

Non-statement. Anecdotal.

I've seen it happen many times.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 7. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and equestrians on trails,
> but not mountain bikers?

No more discriminatory than say allowing equestrians and mountain bikers
and not allowing hikers.

None are discriminatory, as long as the rules are the same for
everyone.

They are. See the NFS rulings. IMBA has qualified and internationally
accepted guidelines. Park systems also. Your OPINION of these rules and of
the activities allowed by them is a non-issue.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 8. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public lands?

No, depends on the land manager.

BS. There is no such "right".

Perhaps... if you want to split hairs. (Which is common for you) However,
"legal access" is granted based on the locallity.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 9. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail construction
> and trail maintenance?

Yes.

It's nothing but "brown-nosing".

More OPINION.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 10. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by being able to
> quickly summon help in the event of an emergency?

Yes

It's not worth the damage they do. They actually CAUSE accidents and
emergencies.

Anecdotal. OPINION. Injuries occur within all sectors of recreation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 11. Can't mountain biking help get our overweight kids off the couch?

Yes

BS. No more than hiking.

Non-statement. OPINION.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 12. Doesn't mountain biking get people out of their cars?

Yes

BS. Mountain bikers use cars & trucks to get to the trailhead.

Non-statement. Anecdotal. Hikers also drive to the trail.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 13. Doesn't the threat from mountain biking pale, in comparison to
> other sources of environmental damage, such as logging?

Yes

BS. Mountain biking creates people who don't care about nature, and
don't oppose logging, unless it's in their neighborhood (it never is).

The numbers do not reflect this. Off-road cyclists in general are very
active in preservation causes. Recreation in the outdoors has proven to be a
catylist for concern in preservation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> 14. What's wrong with night riding?

Nothing

Liar.

Non-statement. No basis at all to call CF a "liar".

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Chris Foster said:

Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Bill Sornson said:

Mike Vandeman wrote:

> I just gave my mountain biking paper at the EIGHTH international
> scientific conference

What conference? Where? When? Details, please!

It's on my web site. Learn to read.

I went to your web site and found nothing about an "EIGHTH international
scientific conference" Could you please help me out and give some details
here, in this form.

Learn to count.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Mike Vandeman said:

...You can't draw any
conclusions from a comparison of one trail used by 100 mountain bikers
with another used by 10,000 hikers.

Sure you can. A) Hikers are selfish; and B) Hiking needs to be restricted
to prevent over-use trail damage.

HTH.

Bill S.

Bill Sornson said:

Mike Vandeman said:

...You can't draw any
conclusions from a comparison of one trail used by 100 mountain bikers
with another used by 10,000 hikers.

Sure you can. A) Hikers are selfish; and B) Hiking needs to be restricted
to prevent over-use trail damage.

HTH.

Bill S.

Dont forget C) That all hikers are liars. 🙂

Mike Vandeman said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>
>> 1. Why do people mountain bike?
> Becacause they like to, it is fun and you can get a great workout.
Caca is exactly right. It's because they are too lazy to WALK, which
is better exercise and more fun.

Walking burns far less carories per unit time. Better ?? No.
I am a hiker and I ride my roadie. They both have their merits. More
fun, both are nice.

Depends. Downhill mountain biking uses hardly any calories.

Just like downhill skiing uses hardly any calories. DUH!

"Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 13:41:10 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> 1. Why do people mountain bike?
>
>Becacause they like to, it is fun and you can get a great workout.

Caca is exactly right. It's because they are too lazy to WALK, which
is better exercise and more fun.

Your OPINION of the activity is not a filter for determining the
advantages
for anyone else. DUH!

Nothing...?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> 2. What is driving the sport of mountain biking?
>The desire to do it. People enjoy it, and people will do what they
>enjoy.
Impotence and broken bones are fun? You are fooling only yourself.

Impotence is a greater concern to road cyclists with the forward seating
position. Veyond that, proper adjustment and fit reduce the probability.
Perhaps you should read about it instead of just picking out the parts
that
fit your OPINION.

I already did.

We know. And it is OBVIOUS you only saw and report what you wanted to see as
you IGNORE the FACTS on proper saddle position and the difference in
standing and sitting positions on road and off-road cycling.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> 3. What harm does mountain biking do?
>
>About the same as hiking.

You know that's a LIE: http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.

Referfence to yourself is invalid.

Sez you only.

Then give the NAMES of other researchers and organizations that have
reviewed and support YOU.
I say off-road cycling is comparable to hiking. Don't believe me...? See
previous sentence.
There - I can reference myself, too.

Quoted message said:

The science AND those who make and

Quoted message said:

enforce the rules of access and use have determined the activities are
comparable. Your OPINION of the activity does not disqualify supportive
research. DUH!

Quoted message said:

>> 4. Mountain bikers claim that their sport has no greater environmental
>> impact than hiking. Is that true?
>Yes
BS, or, in your terminology, caca.

Your OPINION... again.

Quoted message said:

>> 5. Where should mountain biking allowed?
>In the same location where it is allowed now
Only on pavement.

Then it is not "mountain biking". You MUST use correct and accepted
terminology.

If you are riding a mountain bike, you are mountain biking.

Am I "running" simply because I have "running" shoes on? Am I "racing"
simply by driving a car with a number on the interstate? Am I "eating"
simply by sitting in a restaurant? Am I "swimming" merely by wearing a
bathing suit?
You continue to look foolish by proclaiming science and intelligence and
insisting on using your terms and opinions to define the activity.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> 6. What should the policy be on trails?
>
>Open to all except where posted.

Mountain bikers rip out all "no bikes" signs, so this doesn't work. It
must be "closed unless designated open. And it should NEVER be
deiignated open.

Non-statement. Anecdotal.

I've seen it happen many times.

How many is several compared to the 39 million adults who (2003 numbers: 6th
annual Outdoor Recreation Participation Study) have been mountain biking?
What percentage?
They ripped out ALL the "no bike" signs...? Prove that "ALL" signs have been
ripped and prove that it is not a renegade minority doing it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> 7. Isn't it discriminatory to allow hikers and equestrians on trails,
>> but not mountain bikers?
>
>No more discriminatory than say allowing equestrians and mountain bikers
>and not allowing hikers.

None are discriminatory, as long as the rules are the same for
everyone.

They are. See the NFS rulings. IMBA has qualified and internationally
accepted guidelines. Park systems also. Your OPINION of these rules and of
the activities allowed by them is a non-issue.

Nothing...? It speaks VOLUMES!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> 8. Don't I have a right to mountain bike on all public lands?
>
>No, depends on the land manager.

BS. There is no such "right".

Perhaps... if you want to split hairs. (Which is common for you) However,
"legal access" is granted based on the locallity.

Nothing...?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> 9. Don't mountain bikers do some good things, like trail construction
>> and trail maintenance?
>Yes.
It's nothing but "brown-nosing".

More OPINION.

Nothing...?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> 10. But don't mountain bikers provide added safety, by being able to
>> quickly summon help in the event of an emergency?
>Yes
It's not worth the damage they do. They actually CAUSE accidents and
emergencies.

Anecdotal. OPINION. Injuries occur within all sectors of recreation.

Nothing...?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> 11. Can't mountain biking help get our overweight kids off the couch?
>Yes
BS. No more than hiking.

Non-statement. OPINION.

Nothing...?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> 12. Doesn't mountain biking get people out of their cars?
>Yes
BS. Mountain bikers use cars & trucks to get to the trailhead.

Non-statement. Anecdotal. Hikers also drive to the trail.

Nothing...?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> 13. Doesn't the threat from mountain biking pale, in comparison to
>> other sources of environmental damage, such as logging?
>Yes

BS. Mountain biking creates people who don't care about nature, and
don't oppose logging, unless it's in their neighborhood (it never is).

The numbers do not reflect this. Off-road cyclists in general are very
active in preservation causes. Recreation in the outdoors has proven to be
a
catylist for concern in preservation.

Quoted message said:

>> 14. What's wrong with night riding?
>Nothing
Liar.

Non-statement. No basis at all to call CF a "liar".

Nothing...? No offering of proof for your accusation of "liar" to CF...?

Chris Foster said:

Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Aaron W. LaFramboise said:

On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 16:24:55 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email hidden]>
wrote:

>Of course. Wildlife have already lost 95% (?) of their habitat, and
>can't afford to lose any more. Banning bikes is the only way that
>everyone can have equal access to natural areas, since the presence of
>bikes on trails drives hikers off the trails and out of the parks.

This does seem to be a sorry state of affairs. According to the FAO,
about 40% of Earth's availible land area is used for farming and
pastures. I suppose these are the areas that were formerly home to
the most important ecologies.

I am curious though. What are you really asking for in the long run?
Hypothetically, once mountain bikers are off the trails, will you seek
general trail closure (including hikers) as well?

Not mountain BIKERS, BICYCLES! No one has ever advocated banning
mountain BIKERS from trails. As you can easily see from my signature
and web site, I am also advocating designating some areas off-limits
to ALL humans, which obviously includes hikers.

Quoted message said:

>I can't see any reason to allow the destruction of our natural areas.
>Mountain bikers CLAIM to love nature, but actively DESTROY it by
>mountain biking. That makes no sense. If you don't care about nature,
>be a man, and admit it. Don't PRETEND to care.

It's my perception, based on my reading so far, that some mountain
bikers do appreciate nature, and some don't particularly.

I'm not talking about SENTIMENT. People who REALLY care about wildlife
ACT like it, and don't, for example, mountain bike.

Although

Quoted message said:

you may not agree, many mountain bikers seem to be very similar to
hikers in mindset; the bicycle is only a tool to go faster.

That may seem to you like a small difference, but it is actually a
MAJOR difference. People who want to see wildlife WALK. There's no way
you can look at wildlife, while on top of a bike. Bikers miss most of
the willdife, which is not something you can watch while biking "fast"
or even "slow": you will CRASH if you pay attention to anything but
the trail & the bike. Why do you think people hike? It is to get close
to nature. On top of a bike, you can't even feel the ground.

Mike,
I am glad you brought that up again. I just finished a week long back
pack in RMNP, Im not sure where you hike, but I spent a majority on my
time looking at the ground directly in front on me, trying not to trip
and fall. While I am hiking, I am not 'looking around' to enjoy nature
as you state, but looking for foot tangles (tree roots, loose rocks,
etc...).

When I rode a mountain bike, I actually spent more time 'looking
around' and enjoying nature. A root that would trip me hiking, is simply
rolled over when mountain biking, with less damage to the root I might
add.

So, I feel your argument is not based at all on experience or fact.

You forget that I HAVE ridden a mountain bike. And watched their
videos, which show unequivocally that they don't stop to look at
anything.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande