Please correct me if I've made an error here as this is off the top of my head after a hectic day.
Phonak: Sevilla (and by inference Hamilton and Perez) Liberty Seguros: Saiz, which is to say the team? T-Mobile: Sevilla from Phonak, Botero from Kelme, Jan with Cecchini? Kelme: Botero, Jesus Manzano CSC: Basso? Linked to Cecchini and reported (unconfirmed) to have a unit in the Madrid freezer.
And if these riders are involved, what have the Italian, Belgian, U.S. and Dutch Pro-Tour teams been doing? Sitting by idling their engines? IMO, our sport is dying a very public death.
And if these riders are involved, what have the Italian, Belgian, U.S. and Dutch Pro-Tour teams been doing? Sitting by idling their engines? IMO, our sport is dying a very public death.
What is your measure of death? Is cycling dying like baseball in the US is dying? You know, baseball. The sport with a 50 year (at least) history of amphetamine usage that didn't think to test for it until very recently. What was going on with baseball's popularity when the steroid era was taking hold? Yep, the sport is on life support.
When you watch the Tour, compare it to a wake. Then ask yourself if it looks like the sport is dying.
"Bob Schwartz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Allez1 said:
And if these riders are involved, what have the Italian, Belgian, U.S. and Dutch Pro-Tour teams been doing? Sitting by idling their engines? IMO, our sport is dying a very public death.
What is your measure of death? Is cycling dying like baseball in the US is dying? You know, baseball. The sport with a 50 year (at least) history of amphetamine usage that didn't think to test for it until very recently. What was going on with baseball's popularity when the steroid era was taking hold? Yep, the sport is on life support.
When you watch the Tour, compare it to a wake. Then ask yourself if it looks like the sport is dying.
And if these riders are involved, what have the Italian, Belgian, U.S. and Dutch Pro-Tour teams been doing? Sitting by idling their engines? IMO, our sport is dying a very public death.
What is your measure of death? Is cycling dying like baseball in the US is dying? You know, baseball. The sport with a 50 year (at least) history of amphetamine usage that didn't think to test for it until very recently. What was going on with baseball's popularity when the steroid era was taking hold? Yep, the sport is on life support.
When you watch the Tour, compare it to a wake. Then ask yourself if it looks like the sport is dying.
Bob Schwartz
Just don't compare it to a pre-Katrina New Orleans wake. But that's a great point.
Well in France, at least, the sport is dead. Since 1998 Festina doping scandal the numbers of "licences" at the Cycling French Federation decreased year after year. Parents don't want they kids to practice such a tainted sport. And young amateurs are more and more reluctant to become pro. Indeed it concerns just one country yet one country which used to be important in this discipline and is now a non factor. You might blame the medias, but anyway, doping killed this sport in France.
Without sufficient sponsors the sport will diminish -- fewer teams, lower rider salaries, and ultimately less fan interest. Festina left as a sponsor and has not come back and now Liberty Mutual (aka Seguros) Insurance is out. We will see whether Phonak renews. Market forces are at work, as they always are, and the only question is the rapidity with which they cause change. Best, Bill Black
Zak said:
Well in France, at least, the sport is dead. Since 1998 Festina doping scandal the numbers of "licences" at the Cycling French Federation decreased year after year. Parents don't want they kids to practice such a tainted sport. And young amateurs are more and more reluctant to become pro. Indeed it concerns just one country yet one country which used to be important in this discipline and is now a non factor. You might blame the medias, but anyway, doping killed this sport in France.
Without sufficient sponsors the sport will diminish -- fewer teams, lower rider salaries, and ultimately less fan interest. Festina left as a sponsor and has not come back and now Liberty Mutual (aka Seguros) Insurance is out. We will see whether Phonak renews. Market forces are at work, as they always are, and the only question is the rapidity with which they cause change.
Plus USPS pulled out.
JT
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"Bob Schwartz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Allez1 said:
And if these riders are involved, what have the Italian, Belgian, U.S. and Dutch Pro-Tour teams been doing? Sitting by idling their engines? IMO, our sport is dying a very public death.
What is your measure of death? Is cycling dying like baseball in the US is dying? You know, baseball. The sport with a 50 year (at least) history of amphetamine usage that didn't think to test for it until very recently. What was going on with baseball's popularity when the steroid era was taking hold? Yep, the sport is on life support.
When you watch the Tour, compare it to a wake. Then ask yourself if it looks like the sport is dying.
Ever attended an Irish wake? Looks quite similar except the drinking is done in the kitchen and not out of doors.
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Without sufficient sponsors the sport will diminish -- fewer teams, lower rider salaries, and ultimately less fan interest. Festina left as a sponsor and has not come back and now Liberty Mutual (aka Seguros) Insurance is out. We will see whether Phonak renews. Market forces are at work, as they always are, and the only question is the rapidity with which they cause change.
Plus USPS pulled out.
Things REALLY started going downhill when Motorola left.
Well in France, at least, the sport is dead. Since 1998 Festina doping scandal the numbers of "licences" at the Cycling French Federation decreased year after year. Parents don't want they kids to practice such a tainted sport. And young amateurs are more and more reluctant to become pro. Indeed it concerns just one country yet one country which used to be important in this discipline and is now a non factor. You might blame the medias, but anyway, doping killed this sport in France.
Come on Zak - are you telling us that Soccer is a clean sport?
Without sufficient sponsors the sport will diminish -- fewer teams, lower rider salaries, and ultimately less fan interest. Festina left as a sponsor and has not come back and now Liberty Mutual (aka Seguros) Insurance is out. We will see whether Phonak renews. Market forces are at work, as they always are, and the only question is the rapidity with which they cause change.
Name one sponsor in Pro Tour cycling that has been in the sport more than 10 years.
Lotto, Cofidis, Rabobank. Anyone else?
Sponsors come and go but cycling goes on. As long as there are two guys with bikes there will be racing.
Hello Allez1: Worst case for reputations scenario would be: The "clean" teams were sending their riders for private testing to make sure they were "clean" to the hematologists who were doing the "dirty" work for the "dirty" teams/riders. After all, who'd have the most experience in TESTING blood to see that it met UCI/WADA guidelines as a quality control measure?
Robert Leone [email hidden]
Allez1 said:
Please correct me if I've made an error here as this is off the top of my head after a hectic day.
Phonak: Sevilla (and by inference Hamilton and Perez) Liberty Seguros: Saiz, which is to say the team? T-Mobile: Sevilla from Phonak, Botero from Kelme, Jan with Cecchini? Kelme: Botero, Jesus Manzano CSC: Basso? Linked to Cecchini and reported (unconfirmed) to have a unit in the Madrid freezer.
And if these riders are involved, what have the Italian, Belgian, U.S. and Dutch Pro-Tour teams been doing? Sitting by idling their engines? IMO, our sport is dying a very public death.
Come on Zak - are you telling us that Soccer is a clean sport?
That was not my point Tom. If I read properly there are also some Spanish soccer players suspected through this new scandal. Juventus club doctor was convicted in a doping leaving the players off the hook but not off suspicions. Since rugby - the other popular sport - became a pro sport, some players develop a huge mass of muscles in a few months.
We can assume than most pro sports are far from clean. And maybe cycling gets the bad end of the stick. Still in the eye of the public (at least in France), because of the number of cases, because of the media coverage, cycling = doping. As unfair as it seems, soccer isn't. Cycling here is dead as competitive sport. But don't worry there still will be crowds along the roads of the TDF.
"Zak" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Well in France, at least, the sport is dead. Since 1998 Festina doping scandal the numbers of "licences" at the Cycling French Federation decreased year after year. Parents don't want they kids to practice such a tainted sport. And young amateurs are more and more reluctant to become pro. Indeed it concerns just one country yet one country which used to be important in this discipline and is now a non factor. You might blame the medias, but anyway, doping killed this sport in France.
Just wait. A French rider may well win the Tour this year. ;-)
Telekom can't be to far away from 10 years by now.
We'll have to work on the technical aspects - when did they change to T-Mobile and can we call it a continuation? I'm easy, but some people on the list are real hard asses.
Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...
"Zak" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
Well in France, at least, the sport is dead. Since 1998 Festina doping scandal the numbers of "licences" at the Cycling French Federation decreased year after year. Parents don't want they kids to practice such a tainted sport. And young amateurs are more and more reluctant to become pro. Indeed it concerns just one country yet one country which used to be important in this discipline and is now a non factor. You might blame the medias, but anyway, doping killed this sport in France.
Just wait. A French rider may well win the Tour this year. ;-)
Allors! C'est un cochon de vol!
I mean, I've a soft spot for Thomas Voeckler, but come on!
Come on Zak - are you telling us that Soccer is a clean sport?
That was not my point Tom. If I read properly there are also some Spanish soccer players suspected through this new scandal. Juventus club doctor was convicted in a doping leaving the players off the hook but not off suspicions. Since rugby - the other popular sport - became a pro sport, some players develop a huge mass of muscles in a few months.
We can assume than most pro sports are far from clean. And maybe cycling gets the bad end of the stick. Still in the eye of the public (at least in France), because of the number of cases, because of the media coverage, cycling = doping. As unfair as it seems, soccer isn't. Cycling here is dead as competitive sport. But don't worry there still will be crowds along the roads of the TDF.
When I was over in France in 2000, I didn't see a single recreational cyclist on the road until the day before the Paris stage. I was talking to a man from Britany who said that cycling was still popular there.
Why would parents be worried about bicycling when every stinking little village has some 13 year old riding a motor bike from one end of town to the other in a continuous full throttle sprint all day long? (grin) I noticed that didn't seem to bother any of the town fathers.
Hello Allez1: Worst case for reputations scenario would be: The "clean" teams were sending their riders for private testing to make sure they were "clean" to the hematologists who were doing the "dirty" work for the "dirty" teams/riders. After all, who'd have the most experience in TESTING blood to see that it met UCI/WADA guidelines as a quality control measure?
That is a point. Probably entirely incorrect but certainly a possibility. Remember so many riders were testing right on the very edge of legal hematocrit that it isn't too far out to suspect that everyone was riding the line including those people who would NATURALLY exceed the hematocrit but weren't able to document it well enough for the UCI.
My normal hematocrit, living at sea level is 48%-49%. What would it be if I lived in Crested Butte, CO, at 9200 feet (2800 meters)?
