Overtraining Question

J Jones said:

I'm a 6'4" male weighing appx 200 lbs. My MHR is around 185, and I am a
recreational cyclist (2500 - 3000 miles per year) who wants to become more
fit, faster, and lose maybe 5-10 pounds.

How old are you?

Quoted message said:

My delimma is this: I live in a
fairly hilly area around Atlanta, GA and cannot ever seem to get my average
heart rate below about 158-160 (85%)during a 2+ hour ride in this area -
averaging about 16MPH. If I were to get it down to the 65-70% range, I
would be riding at 10 mph and would not be able to log any substantive miles
due to time constraints.

As I understand the problem the terrain makes it difficult to keep your
rate low, not your fitness.

Quoted message said:

This year, I've tried the periodization training method. After completing
my base period the first 3 months of the year, I do seem to be able to ride
at the 85% load for much longer than prior years, but I can tell by my
energy levels afterwards that I might be overtraining in the process.

To me the question should not be how tired you are after the ride, it's
how tired you feel during the ride.

I think you are wasting too much time doing this "base period". You
don't get faster by riding slow. I would concentrate more on staying
fit year round- maintaining your base cardiovascular fitness through
the winter and trying not to lose power, so you can start riding harder
when the weather gets better. It should be relatively easy in Georgia.

I also think that the winter is in some ways a better time to try to
lose weight. The problem with losing weight once you start riding
harder is that it is hard for your body to get the carbs it needs to
recover. I'm thinking this may be part of your problem, that you are
not getting your energy back from your ride. I would try to read up on
ways to do this, including making some calculation of the net calories
you have burned and getting them back (minus ride and 2hr pre-ride
carbs) as quickly and as digestibly as possible.

Another thing to consider is the possibility that at your height and
wieght even if you lose a few pounds you may never be a great climber
and that you may not see the improvements you hope for when you're
riding that kind of terrain.

If you are feeling tired from the last ride when you start the next,
and you are getting enough of the right recovery foods, then maybe you
do need an extra day of rest. One thing I do instead of riding is go
for a quick walk with my dog for an hour or so, because I'm not very
good at moderating my heart rate when I ride. Walking gets the blood
flowing to my legs and burns some calories which helps to decrease the
difference in caloric requirements between days when I ride and days
when I don't. It is my opinion that it is better to ride harder and
rest more than it is to ride more but have to go slower because you
aren't recovering fully enough.

Quoted message said:

Currently, I'm trying the following:

- Long Slow Distance: 65-70% for 1.5 to 2 hours, 1x per week. Can only do
this on my stationary bike, due to the terrain.

How do you feel on your next ride after this compared to not riding at
all? If this answer is not "better" then I would find something else to
do.

Quoted message said:

- Tempo ride: 80-85% for 1-2 hours, 1x per week. Can easily accomplish
this by pushing reasonably hard on any ride in the area.
- "Just ride": Whatever happens, happens re: heart rate. 2-3 hours, 2x per
week. Climbs in the North Ga mountains, local rides, etc. paying little
attention to heart rate.

Quoted message said:

I'd like to incorporate some 3min on/3 min off intervals, but haven't yet.

I'm not sure I would worry about this because probably from what you
are describing you are already getting intervals from so much climbing.
but make sure that you get your muscles burning at some points during
your rides.

Quoted message said:

My main goal is to become more fit, and gain some speed, but I just don't
seem to get much better where speed is concerned, and I fear overtraining is
limiting my overall fitness. Any suggestions?

I think that to some degree the fabled "base period" is a mistake for
people who really want to get faster. You objective is not to ride
further, it's to ride faster. I think that weekly training schedules
may be problematic also, because they don't allow for enough recovery
but also may require too much slow riding. I think it is better to ride
hard for several days in a row, probably with decreasing performance,
and then take a few days off to get completely recovered before you
ride again. If you do this I think you will find that the amount of
time you have to rest to get completely recovered will eventually
decrease, and you will also see noticeable improvement from one set of
rides to the next.

Much of this is probably heretical, especially on this ng as opposed to
the racing ng, but it works for me. Make sure you're healthy to start,
with no underlying medical problems.

In article <[email hidden]>,

J Jones said:

I'm a 6'4" male weighing appx 200 lbs. My MHR is around 185, and I
am a recreational cyclist (2500 - 3000 miles per year) who wants to
become more fit, faster, and lose maybe 5-10 pounds. My delimma is
this: I live in a fairly hilly area around Atlanta, GA and cannot
ever seem to get my average heart rate below about 158-160
(85%)during a 2+ hour ride in this area - averaging about 16MPH. If
I were to get it down to the 65-70% range, I would be riding at 10
mph and would not be able to log any substantive miles due to time
constraints.

How have you picked 185 bpm as your MHR? From what you've described, it
seems possible that your MHR is quite a bit higher than that and you may
not actually be riding at an average of 85% of your MHR. Another
possibility is that your heart rate may just naturally be fairly high
during exercise. Heart rate is an indicator of effort, not an absolute
measure.

Now, I'm 46 years old, also 6'4" and 210-215 lbs. The old rule of thumb
of 220-age = MHR would put me at a MHR of 174, and I know my MHR is
higher than that (although I couldn't tell you what, since I don't use a
heart rate monitor any more) since my MHR has always been above the rule
of thumb. You could well be in the same situation.

One good resource is Joe Friel's book _The Cyclist's Training Bible_.
You can find it in just about any bike shop, most bookstores and online
all over the place. It explains training (and overtraining)
comprehensively and gives you the tools to rate your strengths and
weaknesses and also to set goals and training plans in great detail.

Quoted message said:

This year, I've tried the periodization training method. After
completing my base period the first 3 months of the year, I do seem
to be able to ride at the 85% load for much longer than prior years,
but I can tell by my energy levels afterwards that I might be
overtraining in the process. Currently, I'm trying the following:

- Long Slow Distance: 65-70% for 1.5 to 2 hours, 1x per week. Can
only do this on my stationary bike, due to the terrain. - Tempo ride:
80-85% for 1-2 hours, 1x per week. Can easily accomplish this by
pushing reasonably hard on any ride in the area. - "Just ride":
Whatever happens, happens re: heart rate. 2-3 hours, 2x per week.
Climbs in the North Ga mountains, local rides, etc. paying little
attention to heart rate.

Having never been there, I just took a look in Google Earth. Pretty
corrugated looking terrain. I zoomed in on the road between
Ellison-Stifel Lake and Sequoyah Lake, which looks like it has a tough
switchbacked climb branching off to the north. Looks quite wooded. Is
there somewhere flatter you can get to for a long ride once a week (3-4
hours)? That would help develop your endurance, which would in turn
benefit you on the climbing.

Quoted message said:

I'd like to incorporate some 3min on/3 min off intervals, but haven't
yet. My main goal is to become more fit, and gain some speed, but I
just don't seem to get much better where speed is concerned, and I
fear overtraining is limiting my overall fitness. Any suggestions?

The way to prevent overtraining is to have adequate rest days. You need
to recuperate from the stress of training- your body gets stronger
during rest after exercise rather than during exercise (well, that's
oversimplification). Pick two days a week and don't ride at all on
those days. Back when I raced I had Monday and Friday as designated
rest days.

In terms of training, the question I would have is "what are you
training for?" Training has to be structured around goals, which in
turn is usually a set of races or specific rides that are targets. In
terms of getting faster, if what I saw of the terrain is any indication
of where you ride, then you are doing pretty well to average 16 mph.
From the looks of it, you must be climbing pretty quickly already.

I don't train for maximum speed or output any more, having stopped
racing at the end of 2000 and my current interests being randonneuring
where speed is not essential. Endurance is more important (with rides
of 200, 300, 400, 600 and 1200 km being standard). My training involved
long rides at a moderate speed, primarily, with some hill intervals and
cruise intervals at times. There is evidence that maximum effort
training improves endurance significantly, so it's useful to toss that
into the mix even for a randonneur. Speaking of which, there are
randonneurs in Atlanta:

http://www.geocities.com/garandon/

Sorry for the non-concise post. The short answers are (1) your MHR may
be higher than you think; (2) use scheduled rest days to decrease the
risk of overtraining; (3) create a set of specific goals towards which
your training is aimed; and (4) enjoy riding your bike! I find that if
I take a task-oriented approach to it, I end up resenting riding rather
than looking forward to it. Probably that was why I was a mediocre
racer.

J Jones said:

I'm a 6'4" male weighing appx 200 lbs. My MHR is around 185, and I am a
recreational cyclist (2500 - 3000 miles per year) who wants to become more
fit, faster, and lose maybe 5-10 pounds. My delimma is this: I live in a
fairly hilly area around Atlanta, GA and cannot ever seem to get my average
heart rate below about 158-160 (85%)during a 2+ hour ride in this area -
averaging about 16MPH. If I were to get it down to the 65-70% range, I
would be riding at 10 mph and would not be able to log any substantive miles
due to time constraints.

This year, I've tried the periodization training method. After completing
my base period the first 3 months of the year, I do seem to be able to ride
at the 85% load for much longer than prior years, but I can tell by my
energy levels afterwards that I might be overtraining in the process.
Currently, I'm trying the following:

- Long Slow Distance: 65-70% for 1.5 to 2 hours, 1x per week. Can only do
this on my stationary bike, due to the terrain.
- Tempo ride: 80-85% for 1-2 hours, 1x per week. Can easily accomplish
this by pushing reasonably hard on any ride in the area.
- "Just ride": Whatever happens, happens re: heart rate. 2-3 hours, 2x per
week. Climbs in the North Ga mountains, local rides, etc. paying little
attention to heart rate.

I'd like to incorporate some 3min on/3 min off intervals, but haven't yet.
My main goal is to become more fit, and gain some speed, but I just don't
seem to get much better where speed is concerned, and I fear overtraining is
limiting my overall fitness. Any suggestions?
Jeff

I'm 6'3" 225 so I know what you mean about crawling up hills when
trying to take it easy. I'd suggest using low enough gears to manage
your climbs at your target HR and forget about distance covered.
Training is about intensisty and duration, not distance.

It sounds to me like you ride always in the "mush" zone. From what I
understand, middle ranges like 85% require just as much recovery as
high intensity ranges (90%+) without the fitness and power gains. So
you are never riding in the LSD endurance building and fat burning
range, and never in the high intensity speed buliding range, thus mush.

Last year I did the "just ride" style of training. I went on lots of
club rides and due to my fitness level and the terrain, I was more or
less always in the 85% range, and when I was alone I did the same. I
improved quite a bit during the season (first one after 10 years or
so), but quickly reached a plateau. This year I have been focusing on a
combination of LSD rides and high intensity interval type rides, and
avoiding the "mush" rides. This means I only do one club group-training
ride per week. If I had a different build, or the terrain were
different I could do more. So 2x week I do high intensity training
either as a short (40-50km) road race, a few 10km time trials with 5
minute recovery in between, or a hard hilly club ride. The rest of the
time I do steady (and slow at least uphill) 70% max rides to build
endurance and burn fat (I need to loose 15lbs). The results have been
dramatic. I still have a way to go (to the next higher plateau I
guess!) but my speed (power) and endurance have improved quite a bit.

So I'd suggest forgetting about miles, and concentrating on intensisty
levels, with only 2 very intense days per week, the rest (real) easy.

Joseph

In article <[email hidden]>,

J Jones said:

I'm a 6'4" male weighing appx 200 lbs. My MHR is around 185, and I am a
recreational cyclist (2500 - 3000 miles per year) who wants to become more
fit, faster, and lose maybe 5-10 pounds. My delimma is this: I live in a
fairly hilly area around Atlanta, GA and cannot ever seem to get my average
heart rate below about 158-160 (85%)during a 2+ hour ride in this area -
averaging about 16MPH. If I were to get it down to the 65-70% range, I
would be riding at 10 mph and would not be able to log any substantive miles
due to time constraints.

This year, I've tried the periodization training method. After completing
my base period the first 3 months of the year, I do seem to be able to ride
at the 85% load for much longer than prior years, but I can tell by my
energy levels afterwards that I might be overtraining in the process.
Currently, I'm trying the following:

- Long Slow Distance: 65-70% for 1.5 to 2 hours, 1x per week. Can only do
this on my stationary bike, due to the terrain.
- Tempo ride: 80-85% for 1-2 hours, 1x per week. Can easily accomplish
this by pushing reasonably hard on any ride in the area.
- "Just ride": Whatever happens, happens re: heart rate. 2-3 hours, 2x per
week. Climbs in the North Ga mountains, local rides, etc. paying little
attention to heart rate.

I'd like to incorporate some 3min on/3 min off intervals, but haven't yet.
My main goal is to become more fit, and gain some speed, but I just don't
seem to get much better where speed is concerned, and I fear overtraining is
limiting my overall fitness. Any suggestions?
Jeff

Intervals = speed. I do virtually no training aside from an hour of
commuting mileage per day and intervals when I can, and I'm competitive
in Cat 4 racing (er...).

If you want to gain speed, you have to do intervals.

As for losing 5-10 pounds, if you come up with anything good, let me
know 🙂

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

J Jones said:

I'm a 6'4" male weighing appx 200 lbs. My MHR is around 185, and I am a
recreational cyclist (2500 - 3000 miles per year)

I'd like to incorporate some 3min on/3 min off intervals, but haven't yet.
My main goal is to become more fit, and gain some speed, but I just don't
seem to get much better where speed is concerned, and I fear overtraining is
limiting my overall fitness. Any suggestions?

I doubt you're overtraining at only 3K mi/yr. Intervals are the classic
way to build CV capacity, but I hate them. I'd rather go flat out for an
hour over a known course, staying in the red zone all the way -- not as
effective, but I enjoy it much more.

The easiest, and most fun way, to get faster is to ride regularly
(couple or three times a week) with faster people.

J Jones said:

I'd like to incorporate some 3min on/3 min off intervals, but haven't yet.
My main goal is to become more fit, and gain some speed, but I just don't
seem to get much better where speed is concerned, and I fear overtraining is
limiting my overall fitness. Any suggestions?

As others have said, intervals. While new to bikes, I've been years as a
distance runner. I think your mis-approach is what you call over
training. You do not need LSD to reach fitness. What you need is stress
then recovery. If you are recovering from your rides, then you aren't
over training. What you may need is MORE stress, not less. Riding around
at 60% effort is a good way to never get better.

Try increasing the intensity and varying the distance to see what you
get. If you really need a long ride to feel good, I suppose you can
truck your bike to flatter areas if they exist within a fair distance.

-paul

On Sat, 27 May 2006 17:31:45 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[--]

Quoted message said:

As for losing 5-10 pounds, if you come up with anything good, let me
know 🙂

I'd also be interested, as the only thing I've ever found which works
consistently every time is to eat less. The downside is of course
that is the effective weigh loss is accompanied by a sensation of
hunger from time to time.

This can be avoided by "cheating" with protein powder meal
replacements (usually based on a mix of soya flour and dried milk) but
their use is not universally condoned by the medical profession.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Andrew Price said:

On Sat, 27 May 2006 17:31:45 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[--]

Quoted message said:

As for losing 5-10 pounds, if you come up with anything good, let me
know 🙂

I'd also be interested, as the only thing I've ever found which works
consistently every time is to eat less. The downside is of course
that is the effective weigh loss is accompanied by a sensation of
hunger from time to time.

This can be avoided by "cheating" with protein powder meal
replacements (usually based on a mix of soya flour and dried milk) but
their use is not universally condoned by the medical profession.

For me, amusingly, the only thing that seems to work is the opposite:
ride more.

In the peak of my season, I'm typically doing 1-3 race days a week,
maybe a long ride on top of that, and commuting. At that point it
doesn't matter what I eat, I still lose weight.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

On Sun, 28 May 2006 07:20:42 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[---]

Quoted message said:

In the peak of my season, I'm typically doing 1-3 race days a week,
maybe a long ride on top of that, and commuting. At that point it
doesn't matter what I eat, I still lose weight.

On average, how many hours per day are you on your bike?

Your Age?

Do intervals and rest. Forget the Long SLOW RIDE nonsense. That's for old
men.
Max out one day....rest the next.....or a less strenuous ride. You will
see an improvement.

LUIGI

"J Jones" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm a 6'4" male weighing appx 200 lbs. My MHR is around 185, and I am a
recreational cyclist (2500 - 3000 miles per year) who wants to become more
fit, faster, and lose maybe 5-10 pounds. My delimma is this: I live in a
fairly hilly area around Atlanta, GA and cannot ever seem to get my
average heart rate below about 158-160 (85%)during a 2+ hour ride in this
area - averaging about 16MPH. If I were to get it down to the 65-70%
range, I would be riding at 10 mph and would not be able to log any
substantive miles due to time constraints.

This year, I've tried the periodization training method. After completing
my base period the first 3 months of the year, I do seem to be able to
ride at the 85% load for much longer than prior years, but I can tell by
my energy levels afterwards that I might be overtraining in the process.
Currently, I'm trying the following:

- Long Slow Distance: 65-70% for 1.5 to 2 hours, 1x per week. Can only
do this on my stationary bike, due to the terrain.
- Tempo ride: 80-85% for 1-2 hours, 1x per week. Can easily accomplish
this by pushing reasonably hard on any ride in the area.
- "Just ride": Whatever happens, happens re: heart rate. 2-3 hours, 2x
per week. Climbs in the North Ga mountains, local rides, etc. paying
little attention to heart rate.

I'd like to incorporate some 3min on/3 min off intervals, but haven't yet.
My main goal is to become more fit, and gain some speed, but I just don't
seem to get much better where speed is concerned, and I fear overtraining
is limiting my overall fitness. Any suggestions?
Jeff

I've no expertise in training but I'm about your size, and riding
hills, hills, and more hills has helped my speed on the flats
significantly. It must be the hills, because I avoid flats like the
plague.

On long hills I find a speed that I can maintain with a fair amount of
effort, and leave it there.

On short hills, I try to stay right on the edge of blowing up. I
usually mis-judge it and run out of steam shortly before the top. No
matter; I'm not racing anyone anyway.

On rollers I sprint to the bottom and sprint up and over the top of the
next, then take a few seconds to rest on the downhill before starting
over again.

I'm sure that in some way these activities correlate to more typical
training regimens (intervals, etc..) but I don't know precisely how.

I have a tough time believing that 4 2 hour rides per week could
possibly constitute overtraining, except in the sense that worrying
about staying in the right zones at the right time must be a real drag,
and would certainly make me lose motivation!

I used a HRM for a couple rides but found that I was spending more time
worrying about my heartrate than I was enjoying the ride. Like Mr.
McNamara commented above, I too have found that I have enjoy training
for and riding brevets more than road racing. At my size I'll never be
a competitive racer, but I can still race my best brevet times.

Sam

In article <[email hidden]>,

Andrew Price said:

On Sun, 28 May 2006 07:20:42 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[---]

Quoted message said:

In the peak of my season, I'm typically doing 1-3 race days a week,
maybe a long ride on top of that, and commuting. At that point it
doesn't matter what I eat, I still lose weight.

On average, how many hours per day are you on your bike?

At the absolute peak, maybe 10 hours in one week, possibly 12 at the
max. In the Winter I drop into a mode where I'm riding my 1-hour (both
ways) commute most days, and a 3-hour Saturday ride, but this year, for
example, I took a 3-week vacation near Christmas where I got on my bike
twice in 21 days.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Andrew Price said:

On Sun, 28 May 2006 07:20:42 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[---]

Quoted message said:

In the peak of my season, I'm typically doing 1-3 race days a week,
maybe a long ride on top of that, and commuting. At that point it
doesn't matter what I eat, I still lose weight.

On average, how many hours per day are you on your bike?

At the absolute peak, maybe 10 hours in one week, possibly 12 at the
max. In the Winter I drop into a mode where I'm riding my 1-hour (both
ways) commute most days, and a 3-hour Saturday ride, but this year, for
example, I took a 3-week vacation near Christmas where I got on my bike
twice in 21 days.

Maybe that explains why I've had such a huge speed/skill increase over
the last few months. Partially due to not having a whole lot else to
do but study Chinese and ride my bike, I do about 3 hours a day every
day along with the occasional 5-6 hour ride on the weekend.

On weekdays about 1 hour is active training for training's sake,
another 1 hour or so is time spent getting to and from the beach road
where the bikers go in the evening and the third hour would be around
town doing errands and going to school sorts of things.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Marian said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Andrew Price said:

On Sun, 28 May 2006 07:20:42 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[---]

>In the peak of my season, I'm typically doing 1-3 race days a week,
>maybe a long ride on top of that, and commuting. At that point it
>doesn't matter what I eat, I still lose weight.

On average, how many hours per day are you on your bike?

At the absolute peak, maybe 10 hours in one week, possibly 12 at the
max. In the Winter I drop into a mode where I'm riding my 1-hour (both
ways) commute most days, and a 3-hour Saturday ride, but this year, for
example, I took a 3-week vacation near Christmas where I got on my bike
twice in 21 days.

Maybe that explains why I've had such a huge speed/skill increase over
the last few months. Partially due to not having a whole lot else to
do but study Chinese and ride my bike, I do about 3 hours a day every
day along with the occasional 5-6 hour ride on the weekend.

While quality matters, it would be almost impossible to ride that much
without seeing substantial speed and skill improvements.

Quoted message said:

On weekdays about 1 hour is active training for training's sake,
another 1 hour or so is time spent getting to and from the beach road
where the bikers go in the evening and the third hour would be around
town doing errands and going to school sorts of things.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Ryan Cousineau said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"Marian" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe that explains why I've had such a huge speed/skill increase over
the last few months. Partially due to not having a whole lot else to
do but study Chinese and ride my bike, I do about 3 hours a day every
day along with the occasional 5-6 hour ride on the weekend.

While quality matters, it would be almost impossible to ride that much
without seeing substantial speed and skill improvements.

My life is pretty boring (in a good way). Since I didn't go to the US
this winter I didn't get my mid year resupply (50-60kg) of English
books. Despite careful rationing I still ran out in mid-March. The
majority of my former foreign friends left at the end of last spring
term or at the end of fall term ... leaving me my Chinese friends, most
of whom are the bike club.

90 minutes a day four or five times a week turned into everyday turned
into two hours turned into ... well, you get the picture. I think it
was the second time I ate dinner in the bike shop (which was long
before I started regularly eating dinner at the bike shop owner's
apartment) that I realized I didn't hardly do anything with anyone
other than the bikers.

-M

On 28 May 2006 23:16:58 -0700, "Marian" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Maybe that explains why I've had such a huge speed/skill increase over
the last few months. Partially due to not having a whole lot else to
do but study Chinese and ride my bike, I do about 3 hours a day every
day along with the occasional 5-6 hour ride on the weekend.

On weekdays about 1 hour is active training for training's sake,
another 1 hour or so is time spent getting to and from the beach road
where the bikers go in the evening and the third hour would be around
town doing errands and going to school sorts of things.

Do you live in China? Where do you live that has a nice beach road?
I'm just curious -- lived in Guangzhou for a little under 2 years and
road my bike quite a bit -- though not as much as you do.

JT

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Remove "remove" to reply
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John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On 28 May 2006 23:16:58 -0700, "Marian" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Maybe that explains why I've had such a huge speed/skill increase over
the last few months. Partially due to not having a whole lot else to
do but study Chinese and ride my bike, I do about 3 hours a day every
day along with the occasional 5-6 hour ride on the weekend.

On weekdays about 1 hour is active training for training's sake,
another 1 hour or so is time spent getting to and from the beach road
where the bikers go in the evening and the third hour would be around
town doing errands and going to school sorts of things.

Do you live in China? Where do you live that has a nice beach road?
I'm just curious -- lived in Guangzhou for a little under 2 years and
road my bike quite a bit -- though not as much as you do.

Guangzhou sucks...

I live in Haikou. The beach road is nice,though the beaches themselves
aren't anything special. To get to the decent beaches you have to go
at least an hour out of town.

On 2 Jun 2006 06:56:12 -0700, "Marian" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On 28 May 2006 23:16:58 -0700, "Marian" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do you live in China? Where do you live that has a nice beach road?
I'm just curious -- lived in Guangzhou for a little under 2 years and
road my bike quite a bit -- though not as much as you do.

Guangzhou sucks...

I live in Haikou. The beach road is nice,though the beaches themselves
aren't anything special. To get to the decent beaches you have to go
at least an hour out of town.

Well, I've never been to Hainan and lived in Guangzhou over 15 years
ago. At that time people in Guanzhou assumed Haikou was an outpost
next to a jungle..... though I had a student from Hainan who said it
was nice.

And at that time I remember thinking I really wouldn't want to visit
Guangzhou but it was a nice place to live...great food especially.

The last time I was there was 8 or 10 years ago and it was really
crowded and overdeveloped. Good riding north of the city when I lived
there.

JT

JT

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John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On 2 Jun 2006 06:56:12 -0700, "Marian" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On 28 May 2006 23:16:58 -0700, "Marian" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do you live in China? Where do you live that has a nice beach road?
I'm just curious -- lived in Guangzhou for a little under 2 years and
road my bike quite a bit -- though not as much as you do.

Guangzhou sucks...

I live in Haikou. The beach road is nice,though the beaches themselves
aren't anything special. To get to the decent beaches you have to go
at least an hour out of town.

Well, I've never been to Hainan and lived in Guangzhou over 15 years
ago. At that time people in Guanzhou assumed Haikou was an outpost
next to a jungle..... though I had a student from Hainan who said it
was nice.

And at that time I remember thinking I really wouldn't want to visit
Guangzhou but it was a nice place to live...great food especially.

The last time I was there was 8 or 10 years ago and it was really
crowded and overdeveloped. Good riding north of the city when I lived
there.

I visit Guangzhou anywhere from one to two times a year and in any
given visit I'm amazed at how much more crowded and overdeveloped it
was compared to the last time I was there.

When I did my first tour
http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/journal/guangzhou2005 (the I survived
the HSK Chinese Proficieny Exam tour) I took the bus from Guangzhou to
Jiangmen ... and found the riding quite nice. I've seen more than
enough of GZ from cars and busses to ever want to ride much there.

-M