A Question

Richard said:

Steve Hansen said:

Read: "Mindful Running" http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.html

A fascinating site. Thanks again. I have not gotten halfway through the
site, and have already found 2 apparent disagreements with Chi Running.

" 7. At uniform top speed with zero acceleration, if the athlete was

running in a vacuum with no wind resistance, there would be no
body lean at all."

Of course body lean is a primary concept of chi running.

I don't know about you, but I don't very often run in a vacuum.
It's kind of hard to breath in a vacuum. ;-)

To overcome wind resistance, there needs to be some acceleration.
To maintain constant speed, the acceleration has to equal the
friction from air and other sources. That acceleration in turn
requires some amount of forward lean.

Seriously, there are probably about as many different ways of
explaining efficient running as there are coaches. Take the ideas,
and then go find out what works for your own body. That takes
mindful practice, not just miles. After a couple years, you will
settle into a style that works for you.

Steve

Richard said:

Steve Hansen said:

Read: "Chi Running" http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/074325144X

Thank you for your reply. I have read 1/2 of Chi Running. I found it
had some good things, but also some obvious errors. For example, he
misdefines foot pronation. He says "lift your feet", but doesn't
specify *how* (e.g. one can flex the knee, the hip, or even extend the
hip), he is ambiguous in his pace recommendation, etc. He claims the
calf muscle is completely uninvolved in running, an obvious error. I
don't really have a problem with his idea of thinking from the center,
but it can be just as beneficial to think about what is happening at
the ankle. I think he thinks he has a panacea, and I think that
thinking is almost always dangerous. I will look at mindful running
now. :Thanks again.

The major lesson I got from Chi Running is to use the big muscles in
the upper leg and hip to do most of the work. To learn to do that,
it is helpful to intentionally refrain from using the little muscles
in the calf for a while.

Many people use the calf muscle to 'push off' at each step. At each
step, they land with the leg almost straight, and the forward force
comes from straightening the ankle. The resulting movement puts the
body above normal height for part of each step, and uses a
relatively small muscle (the calf) to do a large fraction of the work.

It is more efficient to use the large muscles of the upper leg to do
most of the work. Most of the force should come from using the
large muscles to extend the knee and hip, instead of using the small
calf muscles to extend the ankle. At each step, the leg lands with
the knee slightly bent, and the force comes from straightening the
knee. The resulting motion puts the body below normal height for
part of each step, and feels a lot like walking up an incline ramp.

I think the explanations of 'falling forward', and 'lifting' the
foot, (instead of 'pushing off'😉 are mainly ways to explain this to
a student. After learning this, you will still use the calf
muscles. Just not so much.

Steve

Richard said:

My question is
this: if you were to encounter a middle age adult who had never run in
his life, but had walked, so had some muscle development, what
instructions would you give him in order to run most efficiently,

Same idea as Donovan, plus tell him to have a look at

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/beginners/part1/ and
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/beginners/part2/

"Steve Hansen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Richard said:

Steve Hansen said:

Read: "Mindful Running" http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.html

A fascinating site. Thanks again. I have not gotten halfway through the
site, and have already found 2 apparent disagreements with Chi Running.

" 7. At uniform top speed with zero acceleration, if the athlete was

running in a vacuum with no wind resistance, there would be no
body lean at all."

Of course body lean is a primary concept of chi running.

I don't know about you, but I don't very often run in a vacuum.
It's kind of hard to breath in a vacuum. ;-)

not to mention the dust problem if someone turned it on while you were in
there.

Quoted message said:

To overcome wind resistance, there needs to be some acceleration.
To maintain constant speed, the acceleration has to equal the friction
from air and other sources. That acceleration in turn requires some
amount of forward lean.

Quoted message said:

Seriously, there are probably about as many different ways of explaining
efficient running as there are coaches. Take the ideas, and then go find
out what works for your own body. That takes mindful practice, not just
miles. After a couple years, you will settle into a style that works for
you.

i liked what Donovan wrote...practice makes for the best efficiency

Quoted message said:

Steve

Steve Hansen said:

It is more efficient to use the large muscles of the upper leg to do
most of the work.

What are the supporting citations for this claim ? Because it sounds wrong
to me.

Quoted message said:

Most of the force should come from using the
large muscles to extend the knee and hip, instead of using the small
calf muscles to extend the ankle. At each step, the leg lands with

This is utter nonsense, and likely to lead to less efficient running.
Greater knee flexion is likely to lead to less efficient running. Noakes
discusses this.

BTW, the aim is not to "do work", the aim is to do *less* work. If I get
from A to B and do less work than you in the process, I'm more economical
than you are.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Steve Hansen said:

Richard said:

Steve Hansen said:

Read: "Mindful Running" http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.html

A fascinating site. Thanks again. I have not gotten halfway through the
site, and have already found 2 apparent disagreements with Chi Running.

" 7. At uniform top speed with zero acceleration, if the athlete was

running in a vacuum with no wind resistance, there would be no
body lean at all."

Of course body lean is a primary concept of chi running.

I don't know about you, but I don't very often run in a vacuum.
It's kind of hard to breath in a vacuum. ;-)
To overcome wind resistance, there needs to be some acceleration.

Not true.

Quoted message said:

To maintain constant speed, the acceleration has to equal the
friction from air and other sources.

Wind resistance is not "friction".

But the main source of energy loss is not "friction" anyway. The
problem is that you have to launch yourself into the air (up and down
movement) to keep running. The energy loss occurs because your muscles
are not perfectly elastic springs.

Quoted message said:

That acceleration in turn
requires some amount of forward lean.

bzzzzzzt.

Quoted message said:

Seriously, there are probably about as many different ways of
explaining efficient running as there are coaches. Take the ideas,
and then go find out what works for your own body. That takes
mindful practice, not just miles. After a couple years, you will

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Quoted message said:

settle into a style that works for you.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

So maybe it does just take miles after all (-;

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

steve common said:

Richard said:

My question is
this: if you were to encounter a middle age adult who had never run in
his life, but had walked, so had some muscle development, what
instructions would you give him in order to run most efficiently,

Same idea as Donovan, plus tell him to have a look at

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/beginners/part1/ and
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/beginners/part2/

Thank you. I will read them.

Quoted message said:

BTW, the aim is not to "do work", the aim is to do *less* work. If I get

from A to B and do less work than you in the process, I'm more
economical
than you are.
__

disagree. that aim is to "max out" your stores at the finish line, not
1 step before. just because you "get
from A to B and do less work than me in the process and are more
economical than me" means nothing in the greater context and standard
of mearue (time). you're not allowing for considersations of speed.
it's about leaving it all out there on the course donnie, and you know
that. the aim *is* to employ " work " managed against the context of
the distance, per your abilities, and max out. i've done this well
once, and was so depleted i blacked out momentarily standing up against
a fence 30 seconds after a race (Na). . but it was great as i knew i
was "spent".

Dan said:

Giving a healthy person running form lessons is as unnecessary as giving a
bird flying lessons.

Maybe so but it's also true that our beautifully designed built in trait
probably ain't optimized for running on pavement in very high heeled, very
substantially cushioned and be-gadgeted trainers.

Even if conscious attention and modification to form is fruitless (and I'm
dubious this is universally true; at the very least a lot of us have bad
postural habits, and 20+ century life distances us from all manner of
built-in traits), my vote is that to really get in touch with those running
form instincts, it's very helpful to put in some miles barefoot or as close
to it (minimal flats, Nike Free...) as you can.

You may be amused to hear that my only barefoot running of these last few
years had been in the City of Los Angeles. Some grass in Griffith Park.
I've been afraid to trust grassy patches here in NYC, but somehow your fair
city seemed to clean and safe by comparison. ;-)

"Richard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I am healthy, but am quite sure that i never had instincts for proper
running. I was told when I was a child that I was flat-footed, that I
should "run on my toes". I tried that and failed. I noticed when I was
a teen that the development of my calves seemed less than most of my
friends. I did not associate the two things at the time. One can argue
whether I was flat footed because I had weak calves, or whether I had
weak calves because I ran flat footed. Re great runners, I have no
desire to be a great runner -- i just want to feel natural when
running, which I do not now.

I'm with Dan in that running is kind of natural.

I'll bare my bias up front, Chi and Pose may work for some but there are
like Atkins et al. fads. There is a great deal of stuff written about
form as with nutrition. Please note that even if you have to worst
conceivable form, making sudden/radical changes will likely cause
injury. Bad form or not your body learns, good or bad, to adjust/adapt.
For the beginning runner I simply stress an erect form on uphills and
level and a slight lean in on down hills. Your weight over your hips.
This simple adjustment will get you off you heels(overstriding) or off
your tip toes on onto a mid-foot landing. If you can't feel your form
run down a city street and look at your refection in the glass windows.

Even if you bend 45 degrees at the waist, agreeably bad form, make slow
changes to a more erect style. Changes means different muscles get used
and new muscles need time to adapt.

And by all means read Ozzie's http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

BTW, the aim is not to "do work", the aim is to do *less* work. If I get

from A to B and do less work than you in the process, I'm more
economical
than you are.
__

disagree. that aim is to "max out" your stores at the finish line, not
1 step before. just because you "get
from A to B and do less work than me in the process and are more
economical than me" means nothing in the greater context and standard
of mearue (time). you're not allowing for considersations of speed.

Learn and the difference between "work" and "power".

If you expend less energy getting from A to B, then for a fixed power output,
you can cover the distance faster.

HTH

--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Richard said:

Thank you for the reasonable reply. I was beginning to think I had
entered the twilight zone of usenet.

You're pretty close, welcome to rec.running! The several trolls who keep
replying to you are actually the same guy, he keeps morphing. He is very
persistent and apparently doesn't have very much to do besides trolling here
and believe it or not, he also finds time to do the same to other forums as
well.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi said:

You're pretty close, welcome to rec.running! The several trolls who keep
replying to you are actually the same guy, he keeps morphing. He is very
persistent and apparently doesn't have very much to do besides trolling here
and believe it or not, he also finds time to do the same to other forums as
well.

I'm flattered Donniekins, but I'm not ALL the trolls here.

TBR

"Steve Hansen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

....
To overcome wind resistance, there needs to be some acceleration.
To maintain constant speed, the acceleration has to equal the
friction from air and other sources. That acceleration in turn
requires some amount of forward lean.

Did you ever see Michael Johnson (arguably the fastest man ever with a 19.32
200m) lean forward? One could argue he would have been that fast with any
style, but one has to wonder if he was that fast precisely because of his
running economy.

-Tony

Steve Hansen said:

Richard said:

... My question is
this: if you were to encounter a middle age adult who had never run in
his life, but had walked, so had some muscle development, what
instructions would you give him in order to run most efficiently,

Read: "Mindful Running" http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.html

Read: "Chi Running" http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/074325144X

One of the most stressed points at mindulness.com is ball-heel-ball
foot motion. My first reaction upon reading this was "HUH???" I
couldn't even imagine landing like that. I mentioned it to my
girlfriend, who has run a half-marathon, and she was equally perplexed
by it. This morning, I followed the advice there and ran barefoot in my
hallway. Whaddya know? BALL-HEEL-BALL!. When you understand that the
initial ball-heel is essentially follow through of the foot descent and
almost instantaneous, the following heel-ball is just push-off. Now,
understand that I have NEVER pushed off while running, the motion
seemed alien to me. That accounts for my poor calf development. So, in
my run today i kept telling myself to run as if I were barefoot. I look
at myself in the store windows as I am running, and have tried and
failed in the past to make myself look just a bit less ridiculous while
running -- this is the largest positive change my body posture I can
remember having made. Ok, the bad news -- my right calf began to have
minor cramp-like feelings that did not prevent me from completing the
run, and I have developed a proto-blister on my right sole, due to
landing on the ball and slightly sliding forward during the motion.
Perhaps lacing tighter will prevent this. The incredibly good news --
while traveling at more or less the same speed as I usually do, I
finished my course instead of gasping for air, breathing nearly
normally!!. Thanks so much!!

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

You're pretty close, welcome to rec.running! The several trolls who
keep
replying to you are actually the same guy, he keeps morphing. He is
very
persistent and apparently doesn't have very much to do besides
trolling here
and believe it or not, he also finds time to do the same to other
forums as
well.

I'm flattered Donniekins, but I'm not ALL the trolls here.

But a major contributor to dorkdom. Someday please explain what pleasure
you get from playing the part of a complete [censored]. Did mommy and
daddy never play with you as a wee one? I wonder if they are proud of
their creation. Some trolls are creative and/or funny from time to time
such as our resident cross-dresser miss anne thrope. You are consistent
lesson in grammar school potty mouth and frankly a total bore. Please
don't tell me you think you're funny.

-DF

The DF said:

But a major contributor to dorkdom. Someday please explain what pleasure
you get from playing the part of a complete [censored].

Everyone's gotta be good at something.

Quoted message said:

Did mommy and
daddy never play with you as a wee one?

Well Daddy "touched me", does that count?

Quoted message said:

I wonder if they are proud of
their creation. Some trolls are creative and/or funny from time to time
such as our resident cross-dresser miss anne thrope.

So am I, but you are just too stupid to get the jokes.

Quoted message said:

You are consistent

How would you know moron? You are just reading a post from over two
days ago. So it proves you are a bit "slow" upstairs.

Quoted message said:

rammar school potty mouth and frankly a total bore. Please
don't tell me you think you're funny.

I'm not funny, I'm hilarious!

Richard said:

Steve Hansen said:

Richard said:

... My question is
this: if you were to encounter a middle age adult who had never run in
his life, but had walked, so had some muscle development, what
instructions would you give him in order to run most efficiently,

Read: "Mindful Running" http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.html

Read: "Chi Running" http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/074325144X

One of the most stressed points at mindulness.com is ball-heel-ball
foot motion. My first reaction upon reading this was "HUH???" I
couldn't even imagine landing like that. I mentioned it to my
girlfriend, who has run a half-marathon, and she was equally perplexed
by it. This morning, I followed the advice there and ran barefoot in my
hallway. Whaddya know? BALL-HEEL-BALL!. When you understand that the
initial ball-heel is essentially follow through of the foot descent and
almost instantaneous, the following heel-ball is just push-off. Now,
understand that I have NEVER pushed off while running, the motion
seemed alien to me. That accounts for my poor calf development. So, in
my run today i kept telling myself to run as if I were barefoot. I look
at myself in the store windows as I am running, and have tried and
failed in the past to make myself look just a bit less ridiculous while
running -- this is the largest positive change my body posture I can
remember having made. Ok, the bad news -- my right calf began to have
minor cramp-like feelings that did not prevent me from completing the
run, and I have developed a proto-blister on my right sole, due to
landing on the ball and slightly sliding forward during the motion.
Perhaps lacing tighter will prevent this. The incredibly good news --
while traveling at more or less the same speed as I usually do, I
finished my course instead of gasping for air, breathing nearly
normally!!. Thanks so much!!

I have found that the only time I got hurt running was when I read a
highly recommended book on running and tried to change my gait. I tried
it for just a 1/4 mile and damaged my ligaments.

I really think for a health oriented runner, the best thing to do, as
someone wrote earlier is to have fun. Just run. My main recommendation
is to try and run mostly on soft surfaces.

Sure, intervals of sprinting, hill climbing and all that will improve
your speed.

I coached a youth cross country team in the 80s to the National Junior
Olympics. I main training regime? Have fun. We ran a lot, and changed
the courses. Since they were all Native Americans, they also tried to
chase their horses.... and of course, avoid the horse "presents" on the way.

After my son made his college Cross Country team, the only significant
recommendation was, not to pump the arms, as that wastes energy. He was
told to learn to let his arms relax, and if you see cross country races
in colleges, you'll see that has become the standard. Sure feels weird
when I tried it.

Some will say, no headphones. I've found the best way to lose complete
track of time is to get books on CD or books on tape. I've "read" a lot
of books, while covering a lot of miles. Great sense of accomplishments.

Finally, running during Spring Break on the beaches in Florida is also
interesting!