Routine Performance Testing

Spunout said:

This might work for your VP strategy in a TT, I can see that.

But in a RR you go as fast as the person in front of you goes until you can't. And if you can go faster, at some time you're going to have to. Manage efforts? It is more like dig deeper than you've ever done, find an extra few matches you never knew you had.

It sounds like you've done quite a bit of racing. How do you decide when to attack, or whether you should follow an attack, or bridge, or chase down an attack, or when you should move up in the field?

Spunout said:

This might work for your VP strategy in a TT, I can see that.

But in a RR you go as fast as the person in front of you goes until you can't. And if you can go faster, at some time you're going to have to. Manage efforts? It is more like dig deeper than you've ever done, find an extra few matches you never knew you had.

I assume you're talking about the usefulness of on-bike, real-time data on anaerobic work capacity. Until such data are available, this is of course a theoretical discussion. But, I have a different take on its usefulness. It's difficult to generalize about RRs and crits because the race dynamics differ so much across categories and geographies. Yes, it is true that in some races we basically make no decisions and just attempt to respond to the race's pace as dictated by other riders with more power. This is especially true if we are in the lower half of the field in power. But, in other races we make choices about anaerobic efforts. For example, whether to attack, join an attack, attempt a break, attempt a bridge, etc., etc. These decisions and events in a race are often decisive, at least with respect to determining who's in the lead group at the finish. These decisions and events also require instant decision-making. I, for one, would be very interested in knowing the cumulative status of my anaerobic work capacity (among other things) to make these decisions. Your argument could be taken to the extreme and you could argue that there's no reason to ride with a power meter in a RR, for precisely the reasons you stated. Yet, most of those who ride with PMs prefer to race with power data as well (me included).

RapDaddyo said:

I assume... most of those who ride with PMs prefer to race with power data as well (me included).

Yes, we look at it AFTER the race. Some put tape over the display. I NEVER look at the display to guide me for any efforts in a race because that would be near useless. You go as hard as you you need to, or can, and sometimes harder than that. You do what you must do or blow up trying.

In fact, most racing decisions need to be made so fast you couldn't possibly even glance at your display because if it takes you 3 extra seconds to decide what to do the gap in front of you just went from 20 feet to 50 feet and you are now SOL, or the effort to close that gap is considerably different from the one you could have used if it took you 1 second to decide what to do instead of 4 seconds.

Ideas based on 20 races are often different from ideas based on hundreds of races.

WarrenG said:

Yes, we look at it AFTER the race. Some put tape over the display. I NEVER look at the display to guide me for any efforts in a race because that would be near useless. You go as hard as you you need to, or can, and sometimes harder than that. You do what you must do or blow up trying.

In fact, most racing decisions need to be made so fast you couldn't possibly even glance at your display because if it takes you 3 extra seconds to decide what to do the gap in front of you just went from 20 feet to 50 feet and you are now SOL, or the effort to close that gap is considerably different from the one you could have used if it took you 1 second to decide what to do instead of 4 seconds.

Ideas based on 20 races are often different from ideas based on hundreds of races.

There are lots of instances when having power data is very usefull during a race. If I remember right you are primarily (exclusively?) a crit racer on the road. Even in crits though, I've benefited from having power data when off the front or atempting to bridge to a break.

In a road race there are more frequent circumstances. Again, when off the front, bridging, but also when climbing long hills. Often it makes more sense to ride your own pace if the pace is way too high than risk blowing up entirely.

And of course a PM can be very usefull in TT's.

I dunno about the usefullness (and I'm dubious of the abilty) of modeling 'matches'. In my experience, I am pretty acutely aware of what I have left in the tank (or how refilled the tank is as the case may be). The 'jelly leg' feeling of having no anaerobic pop is not subtle, just as the opposite, the feeling of having lots of pop is equally un-subtle. But even that doesn't account for when it is right to make a move. Sometimes the right time doesn't necesarrily mean you are the freshest, just that you are the least wasted =).

Scott

scotmart said:

(I'm dubious of the abilty) of modeling 'matches'.

What part of modeling anaerobic efforts are you dubious of the ability to do? And why?

RapDaddyo said:

What part of modeling anaerobic efforts are you dubious of the ability to do? And why?

Recovery. As far as I know there isn't much information out there about the time frame of the lactacid componant, either absolutely, or how it might vary with different relative loads.

The last part is the real problem though I think. Even if you could get some good info on recovery half lifes, it would likely be obtained by doing all out efforts followed by pure recovery intervals. Would such data still apply when the recovery was more intense and/or more variable?

Shrug, seems a complicated formula.

Scott

Edit: One of the problems is that the entire concept of 'matches' is nebulous, and by no means established. The idea that total anaerobic capacity is some how quantum is not altogether logical to me. Since the science explaining what actually determines anaerobic capacity (both in terms of amount and recovery) is still lacking, it seems a stretch to try to mathmatically model it. But... it's an interesting effort, and I wish you luck! If nothing else, I'm sure working on it, and running through the numbers will provide more insight into your own personal physiology.

WarrenG said:

Yes, we look at it AFTER the race. Some put tape over the display. I NEVER look at the display to guide me for any efforts in a race because that would be near useless.

I agree with you Warren. No decisions are made based on the power readout during the race. Hell, I finished a race with a late surge 10 watts below my FT but still dropped my group and finished alone (still down 30 spots :p). If I saw that and said 'I shouldn't go up the road' because I can't ride at FT (in the 4th hour of a race)...I'd have never known.

And in your other response, the display or power meter is not going to tell me when or when not to attack.

How do I decide? When I feel very, very bad, chances are that everyone else does too because the pace is so high. Of course, I have had a few in-form races where I can attack all day until a small group forms and then I can think about placing. I dont' think any computer can aid me in this.

Spunout said:

I agree with you Warren. No decisions are made based on the power readout during the race.

So if you were on a solo break or bridging a gap, you wouldn't use your PM to pace yourself? If you were in a small group, you wouldn't use it to help minimize your effort?

Spunout said:

I agree with you Warren. No decisions are made based on the power readout during the race.

What kind of stuff does a race director tell pro riders over the team radios? Is he accessing power info and providing guidance based on the info he has at hand? I honestly don't know if they have those capabilities or not, but wouldn't that be a huge advantage for that team over others that didn't? Even if the director doesn't have access to the real-time outputs of the riders, I imagine they have used power data from test-rides to create a strategy based on the ride profile, and he's reminding the team of the upcoming section and the associated tactics.

I realize it's more difficult for a rider to do that kind of thinking based on his limited attention and display info, but I don't think anyone could argue that there wouldn't be any value to it if it could be done. Surely there's some time during a 4+ hour race for a rider to flip through the displays on a PM and run a mental check to make sure the meter agrees with his perceptions of how hard the race has been.

Personally, I do look at the display *occasionally* during a race. Mostly it's while I'm on/near the front and I'm monitoring whether there's a need to be concerned about the amount of time I spend there. I agree that there's not much guidance there, but it's possible that that's a limitation of my display rather than a lack of data relevance *during a race*.

whoawhoa said:

So if you were on a solo break or bridging a gap, you wouldn't use your PM to pace yourself? If you were in a small group, you wouldn't use it to help minimize your effort?

If you 'minimize' efforts around here, you'll wake up in a ditch 😄

Pacing yourself: If you look at the power, and it says slow down...but the group ahead of you is pulling away: What do you do?

Put head down and hammer. Sometimes you make it, sometimes you don't. Sometimes your power meter might say that you can't, but you will.

scotmart said:

Shrug, seems a complicated formula.

Only as complex as the physiology. But, given what appears to be the importance of anaerobic work capacity to race performance, it seems worthy of allocating a few brain cells to the problem. Anyway, I enjoy a challenge and I enjoy pushing the envelope. We lost one of my heros yesterday -- Scott Crossfield.

SolarEnergy said:

Sorry for jumping in late.

But if you are to test for anaerobic capacity, then why not use shorter duration? 3 minutes, it's a bit long don't you think?

Actually, the longer the better, as long as you have some other points (RD's 30 minute power) to help extrapolate which part of the shorter effort was aerobic and which was anaerobic. If you go too short, you might not be able to fully exhaust AWC. Consider the extreme example of a single second: nobody can put out 10kJ in one second. 3 minutes is long enough to be reasonably sure that, in a maximal effort, AWC is exhausted.

Spunout said:

If you 'minimize' efforts around here, you'll wake up in a ditch 😄

Pacing yourself: If you look at the power, and it says slow down...but the group ahead of you is pulling away: What do you do?

Put head down and hammer. Sometimes you make it, sometimes you don't. Sometimes your power meter might say that you can't, but you will.

Adrenalin and desire can produce an extra bit of performance if you're completely convinced the effort is worth it.

WarrenG said:

Adrenalin and desire can produce an extra bit of performance if you're completely convinced the effort is worth it.

Well, there you go RapDaddyo! Some inspirational words from Warren to help motivate you to crack this tough problem. 😄

ps. I'm close to done reading your write-up. Sorry it's taking so long.

frenchyge said:

Well, there you go RapDaddyo! Some inspirational words from Warren to help motivate you to crack this tough problem. 😄

That's what I was waiting for. Now, I'll be alright.

frenchyge said:

ps. I'm close to done reading your write-up. Sorry it's taking so long.

I told you it wasn't a light read.😄

Spunout said:

If you 'minimize' efforts around here, you'll wake up in a ditch 😄

I'm always happy to send wheel-suckers into ditches. I just meant finding the "right" spot in the draft, pulling through smoothly, (which helps the group out) not jumping harder up hills than you mean too.

Spunout said:

Pacing yourself: If you look at the power, and it says slow down...but the group ahead of you is pulling away: What do you do?

So, what if you attack like crazy to bridge, and blow up? What if you could have made it had you been a little steadier? What if you have a long, steep climb and you pace yourself, but get dropped? Odds are you'll pass through plenty of people who went too hard and blew up. And if you don't, you were going to get dropped anyway. I'm not making an effort to computerize racing, it takes pain and work and soul and whatever else you want to call it. I'm just asking genuine questions, since I don't have a PM myself.

WarrenG said:

See, we agree. You can test your "highly anaerobic" performance in races and with other tests that reasonably simulate the same thing.

What, like a 1-minute test from a fairly rested state?

WarrenG said:

And as you say, "just picking out a duration and choosing that for training emphasis ignores a lot." This is why I've mentioned doing training for that "duration" within a physiological environment similar to what you encounter while doing that duration in races.

But the point isn't duration, it's intensity/energy system. A one minute rested test gives you an idea of your anaerobic capabilitities. An FT test tells you (in addition to what your FT is of course) a lot about your ability to attack after hours of tough racing, because getting there "fresh" is more important than high AWC.

WarrenG said:

Using your example, if you want to get better at a one minute attack after a climb done at FT... This is similar to what I suggested originally. 4 minutes at threshold (I've said previously that I do these on a hill), then the one minute effort. What do you think would be the most relevant (non-racing) test to see if you have improved in this area?

I would just look at FT/5-min power since I doubt I'd go anywhere close to my 1-minute max in that situation.

WarrenG said:

For your criterium attack from a rested state, the one minute attack isn't really the key part is it? It's what you can do after that attack. Training for this type of attack and breakaway should reflect that. If you ride at 300 watts after your attack will you just test yourself at 300watts, or will you test yourself AFTER you have done one minute all-out?

That's an interesting point. But recovery from efforts is mostly determined by FT, so I don't see how being that specific would help.

WarrenG said:

(Actually, you could simulate most of that environment with different efforts that would allow you to do more of the work you're mainly interested at the moment. You could pre-fatigue your fast fibers with sprints or similar, which is good training by itself, then your 300 watt effort would be done with less help from your fast fibers, just like in the race. If you want to also add in the low ph, high lactate, oxygen debit/deficit, etc. factors then you could do that too.)

Yeah, but...won't your fast fibers just fatigue anyway towards the end of long efforts at FT? So you're just limiting the amount of work you can do, right? Anyway, that's a very interesting point. I'll have to think on it.😄

whoawhoa said:

I'm always happy to send wheel-suckers into ditches. I just meant finding the "right" spot in the draft, pulling through smoothly, (which helps the group out) not jumping harder up hills than you mean too.

So, what if you attack like crazy to bridge, and blow up? What if you could have made it had you been a little steadier? What if you have a long, steep climb and you pace yourself, but get dropped? Odds are you'll pass through plenty of people who went too hard and blew up. And if you don't, you were going to get dropped anyway. I'm not making an effort to computerize racing, it takes pain and work and soul and whatever else you want to call it. I'm just asking genuine questions, since I don't have a PM myself.

My powermeter is not going to teach me how to race.

Spunout said:

My powermeter is not going to teach me how to race.

This is basically what I've said-that you have to learn about racing and how you can race, by actually racing, and it takes much more than 20-30 races to figure this out.

Whoawhoa, RDO, a few others? Think about it... a gap is 30 meters, and the break is pulling away at 31mph. Or is it 32mph? Or will they slow to 29mph in another half mile? And is there somebody on my wheel? Do I care? How fast do I need to go and for how long if I want to shake them before I get to the break? Or if I want them to stay with me until we catch? Should I go so hard to discourage other chasers, or do I want to encourage other chasers? Who is in the group I'm chasing? How hard am I willing to chase given who is in that group? And how much more time is left in the race? What obstacles or difficulties are coming up soon that will influence whether I should risk blowing up or be more conservative?

Magic 8-Ball power analyzer, what should I do?

whoawhoa said:

What, like a 1-minute test from a fairly rested state?

Not the same environment nor the necessarily the same fibers as during the one minute in a race. Do you want to test your criterium/MTB racing performance ability, or your ability as a kilo racer?

How about you try 4 intervals like I've described, with 4 minutes rest, and tell us how they compare to hard one-minute efforts you'd do in races? On another day you can do the one-minute efforts from rested and see how they compare to what you do in races.

whoawhoa said:

Yeah, but...won't your fast fibers just fatigue anyway towards the end of long efforts at FT? So you're just limiting the amount of work you can do, right? Anyway, that's a very interesting point. I'll have to think on it.😄

I didn't mention long efforts at FT. Just 4 minutes at race pace, which may be slightly above what you call FT. The idea is to be fresh enough to do lots of the target training, but you can influence what fibers will be used (and how you will be training them) to some extent with what you do before the intervals, how much recovery you use, how hard the accelerations are, and of course, your current abilities.