9 speed future.

Callistus Valerius said:

Most likely I will buy another bike 5 years from now, a carbon one let's
say. Will I be able to get it in a 9 speed. I really didn't see any
advantage going from 8 to 9, but I accept the 9. I really don't want a 10
speed. Will you be able to get the upper end bikes in 9 speed 5 years from
now? Also, I just bought a 9 speed rear 105 der, and I've noticed they are
disappearing.

It'll be 12 speed in 5 years. 😉

mitosis said:

It'll be 12 speed in 5 years. 😉

Or maybe infinitely variable.

Callistus Valerius said:

Most likely I will buy another bike 5 years from now, a carbon one let's
say. Will I be able to get it in a 9 speed. I really didn't see any
advantage going from 8 to 9, but I accept the 9. I really don't want a 10
speed. Will you be able to get the upper end bikes in 9 speed 5 years from
now? Also, I just bought a 9 speed rear 105 der, and I've noticed they are
disappearing.

In 1998, if you wanted a 8s bike you had to get low end stuff...in
2006, if you want a 9s bike, you had to get low end stuff....don't
expect any DA/ultegra/105, Record/Chorus/Centaur/Veloce 9s bikes in 5
years...

these days, as for RD, any shimano RD will work with any shimano
shifter, with the exception of pre-97 DA 8s...

so if you have a 9s system and need a new RD-get the 10s one, works
fine and dandy w/o modification.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

In 1998, if you wanted a 8s bike you had to get low end stuff...in
2006, if you want a 9s bike, you had to get low end stuff....don't
expect any DA/ultegra/105, Record/Chorus/Centaur/Veloce 9s bikes in 5
years...

Then again, why would you _need_ a new bike? The old ones seem to work
well. If you need a 9s, stick with your 9s.

Besides, in 5 years we should be getting close to the hover car
conversions which were commonplace in Back to the Future in 2015.
Certainly bikes should be converting soon.

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Callistus Valerius said:

Most likely I will buy another bike 5 years from now, a carbon one let's
say. Will I be able to get it in a 9 speed. I really didn't see any
advantage going from 8 to 9, but I accept the 9. I really don't want a

10

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

speed. Will you be able to get the upper end bikes in 9 speed 5 years

from

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

now? Also, I just bought a 9 speed rear 105 der, and I've noticed they

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

disappearing.

In 1998, if you wanted a 8s bike you had to get low end stuff...in
2006, if you want a 9s bike, you had to get low end stuff....don't
expect any DA/ultegra/105, Record/Chorus/Centaur/Veloce 9s bikes in 5
years...

This is true in part if you only shop cassettes from Shimano and Campagnolo.
However, SRAM, IRD and Miche make after-market 9 and 10 speed cassettes and
are available in lots of ratios:

IRD cassettes, available in "light" alloy and steel:
http://www.interlocracing.com/cassettes.html

Miche cassettes:
http://aebike.com/page.cfm?PageID=30&action=list&Category=556&Brand=572&type
=T

SRAM casettes:
http://aebike.com/page.cfm?PageID=30&action=list&Category=556&Brand=388&type
=T

However, I think the problem, especially for Shimano STI users, is not so
much cassettes, but finding replacement STI levers. IF you use Shimano STI
DA or Ultegra 9 now, and it breaks or "wears out," then finding a DA or
Ultegra replacement lever will not only require buying a new shifter, STI
are NOT rebuildable, but you may be limited to only a low end version like a
Tiagra. Not a good scenario and maybe the best reason to go 10 speed!

Callistus Valerius said:

Most likely I will buy another bike 5 years from now, a carbon one let's
say. Will I be able to get it in a 9 speed. I really didn't see any
advantage going from 8 to 9, but I accept the 9. I really don't want a 10
speed. Will you be able to get the upper end bikes in 9 speed 5 years from
now? Also, I just bought a 9 speed rear 105 der, and I've noticed they are
disappearing.

Apart from the narrow fiddly chain (until SRAM et al bring out a
sensible joining link) and increased wear rate, 10 speed is OK. The
wheel dish is the same as 9 speed and it's said to be less fussy about
setup than 9 speed.

Quoted message said:

it's said to be less fussy about
setup than 9 speed.

??? That's news to me.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Callistus Valerius said:

Most likely I will buy another bike 5 years from now, a carbon one let's
say. Will I be able to get it in a 9 speed. I really didn't see any
advantage going from 8 to 9, but I accept the 9. I really don't want a 10
speed. Will you be able to get the upper end bikes in 9 speed 5 years from
now? Also, I just bought a 9 speed rear 105 der, and I've noticed they are
disappearing.

I recently got my 1st 10 speed. Campy Chorus/FSA compact. I like it. I
have gone from a triple 9sp to a compact double 10sp with a fairly wide
range cassette. I have about the same gear range as the old triple and
reasonable steps in gears but I don't have to shift the front as often.
Front shifts are slow and prone to chain dropping which aren't problems
with the rear. Maybe when we get to twelve speed cassettes, we can
forget the front shifting altogether.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

so if you have a 9s system and need a new RD-get the 10s one, works
fine and dandy w/o modification.

I think his concern is for the shifters. Shimano's products at the
high end in this area have proven to be less than stunning in the
durability department, and given the short cable throw that Shimano
uses, it's not a given that the tech will be useful when it filters
down to the lower end. Of course, it's irrelevant if you swap to
Campy, where repairability is actually recognized as a virtue in a
product.

My take: For road, avoid Shimano for the long haul. They make nice
bleeding-edge bits if you have the budget, and they flow that downhill
to the midrange after a year or two, but their long-term plan seems
designed around the idea that the users will always be buying new bits
in bunches. To me, that's not just short-sighted, it's predatory.
Lots of non-competitive riders would embrace the idea of staying with
the same relaible, familiar and durable gear year after year if they
could keep it in service for a reasonable cost...but can't justify the
cost of "being a player" at all. The sport loses out when people walk
away due to lack of support for their level of enthusiasm.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

"mitosis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It'll be 12 speed in 5 years. 😉

Quoted message said:

mitosis

More than 10? Doubt it - cogs spacing and chains now are so narrow that
there is only one way for roadies to get more gears. That's by increasing
the rear stay spacing to 135mm (as in mountain bikes). This is pretty much
a pointless proposition, in that 8 cogs in the back was more than enough. 9
had little marginal value. 10 only demonstrates that the manufacturers have
run out of ideas, and are just adding another cog every 4 years as part of a
strategy of planned obsolescence and to create some 'new and improved' hype.

However, this strategy does work; I see it in action when I'm advising folks
at work in buying bikes. The number of "speeds" is a major selling point to
the innocent. So is full suspension. Drop the uninformed into a bike
buying situation, and they'd appraise my 2 x 7-speed Pinarello as junk.
Left to their own devices, they'll come home with a 45-pound 27-speed
pogostick monstrosity from Wallyworld. For cruising around the pavement in
the 'hood.

I'm happy with what I have now, and don't intend to spend anything but
maintenance money on my drivetrain until I can get a (light and efficient)
internally geared hub with 10+ evenly spaced gears. Infinite variable
transmission - even better. For that I would be willing to drop serious
money.

bfd said:

However, I think the problem, especially for Shimano STI users, is not so
much cassettes, but finding replacement STI levers. IF you use Shimano STI
DA or Ultegra 9 now, and it breaks or "wears out," then finding a DA or
Ultegra replacement lever will not only require buying a new shifter, STI
are NOT rebuildable, but you may be limited to only a low end version like a
Tiagra. Not a good scenario and maybe the best reason to go 10 speed!

You just have to plan ahead for these obsolesences and stock up on
parts that you know have a limited service life. In the case of road
STI, it's no secret that they break too soon.

I managed to get two sets of Ultegra 9-speed shifters from Nashbar at
an incredible price of $127 - 10% a year or so ago. They haven't even
sold 105 9-speed that low so far. I should be able to 6+ years out of
them by which time 10-speed might be affordable.

On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 09:55:46 -0700, Dan <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I recently got my 1st 10 speed. Campy Chorus/FSA compact. I like it. I
have gone from a triple 9sp to a compact double 10sp with a fairly wide
range cassette. I have about the same gear range as the old triple and
reasonable steps in gears but I don't have to shift the front as often.
Front shifts are slow and prone to chain dropping which aren't problems
with the rear. Maybe when we get to twelve speed cassettes, we can
forget the front shifting altogether.

A chain catcher is the ticket to prevent the chain dropping for
compact set ups and the 16 tooth drop from 50 to 34. The one below is
the least expensive I've seen (up to $20 for a piece of plastic!!).
Link is to 31.8 dia.; 28.6 and 34.9 also available.

http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cgi?id=833043778591&d=single&c=Components&sc=Chain%20Guides&tc=Chain%20Catcher&item_id=CD-04B

As far as slow shifting, I recently posted all the Shimano shifter/
derailleur combos I've gone through the past 2 years to finally dial
it in (about 6 in all). The problem being the 16 tooth jump, and that
standard derailleurs, designed for 14 teeth, work but not necessarily
optimally with compact. Worse, I have heard that the Campy compact
front ders. are not compatible with FSA crank/rings. See:
http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/9391.0.html

I currently am using Dura Ace 10 speed shifters with a FSA C-16
compact derailleur, and that combo works absolutely flawlessly.
Instant shifts up from 34 to 50. Perfect.

Werehatrack said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

so if you have a 9s system and need a new RD-get the 10s one, works
fine and dandy w/o modification.

I think his concern is for the shifters. Shimano's products at the
high end in this area have proven to be less than stunning in the
durability department, and given the short cable throw that Shimano
uses, it's not a given that the tech will be useful when it filters
down to the lower end. Of course, it's irrelevant if you swap to
Campy, where repairability is actually recognized as a virtue in a
product.

My take: For road, avoid Shimano for the long haul. They make nice
bleeding-edge bits if you have the budget, and they flow that downhill
to the midrange after a year or two, but their long-term plan seems
designed around the idea that the users will always be buying new bits
in bunches. To me, that's not just short-sighted, it's predatory.
Lots of non-competitive riders would embrace the idea of staying with
the same relaible, familiar and durable gear year after year if they
could keep it in service for a reasonable cost...but can't justify the
cost of "being a player" at all. The sport loses out when people walk
away due to lack of support for their level of enthusiasm.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

How is Campy different these days? It's getting to be 10s Ergo and
carbon fiber or nuthin'. If I want to stick with downtube shifters, I
can set up a bike with Shimano standard brake levers and DT shifters
for under $100. If I want to go Campy, I have to buy 10s bar-end
shifters & a DT conversion kit for about $200, then finish it off with
$175 carbon levers (the only standard brake levers Campy sells, AFAIK).
How's that for predatory? Certainly doesn't seem like Campy is
staying with "the same reliable, familiar, and durable gear year after
year".

Bruce the frustrated Campy fan.

Doug Taylor said:

On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 09:55:46 -0700, Dan <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I recently got my 1st 10 speed. Campy Chorus/FSA compact. I like it. I
have gone from a triple 9sp to a compact double 10sp with a fairly wide
range cassette. I have about the same gear range as the old triple and
reasonable steps in gears but I don't have to shift the front as often.
Front shifts are slow and prone to chain dropping which aren't problems
with the rear. Maybe when we get to twelve speed cassettes, we can
forget the front shifting altogether.

A chain catcher is the ticket to prevent the chain dropping for
compact set ups and the 16 tooth drop from 50 to 34. The one below is
the least expensive I've seen (up to $20 for a piece of plastic!!).
Link is to 31.8 dia.; 28.6 and 34.9 also available.

http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cgi?id=833043778591&d=single&c=Components&sc=Chain%20Guides&tc=Chain%20Catcher&item_id=CD-04B

As far as slow shifting, I recently posted all the Shimano shifter/
derailleur combos I've gone through the past 2 years to finally dial
it in (about 6 in all). The problem being the 16 tooth jump, and that
standard derailleurs, designed for 14 teeth, work but not necessarily
optimally with compact. Worse, I have heard that the Campy compact
front ders. are not compatible with FSA crank/rings. See:
http://www.velonews.com/tech/report/articles/9391.0.html

I currently am using Dura Ace 10 speed shifters with a FSA C-16
compact derailleur, and that combo works absolutely flawlessly.
Instant shifts up from 34 to 50. Perfect.

I had read about the Campy front der not working with the FSA compact so
I got a FSA C-16 front der to go with the Carbon MegaExo compact cranks.
It shifts very well with the Chorus 10 speed controls. I was
disappointed to find that no amount of up shifting and pedaling will
pick up a dropped chain but I have only dropped it once. I would like a
chain keeper but the seat tube is not round and I haven't looked into
figuring out how to do it yet.

Bruce states:

<How is Campy different these days? It's getting to be 10s Ergo and
carbon fiber or nuthin'. >

Further, he adds:

<If I want to go Campy, I have to buy $175 carbon levers (the only
standard brake levers Campy sells, AFAIK). >

Huh? What about Centaur or Veloce? Both have "all alloy" Ergo levers:
Centaur Ergo levers:
http://www.campagnolo.com/groupsets.php?gid=3&cid=3&pid=59
Veloce Ergo levers:
http://www.campagnolo.com/groupsets.php?gid=4&cid=3&pid=80

Yes, it doesn't have the "ball-bearing" system like Record or Chorus;
instead has "bushings." However, if you tried the different levers, I
bet you can't tell the difference.

Get off your high horse! Centaur is arguably the "best buy" in Campy's
lineup. The rear hub is basically a Record with different dustcap.
Moreover, many of the other parts like brakes and derailleurs are a
slightly heavier version of Record and Chorus!

Larry said:

I didn't realize you needed to replace the engine in a 70s Chrysler
when you went down in a crit.

What a sight! A 70s Chrysler in a crit. Kinda like an elephant in a
tutu.

Regards, John

Quoted message said:

How is Campy different these days? It's getting to be 10s Ergo and
carbon fiber or nuthin'. If I want to stick with downtube shifters, I
can set up a bike with Shimano standard brake levers and DT shifters
for under $100. If I want to go Campy, I have to buy 10s bar-end
shifters & a DT conversion kit for about $200, then finish it off with
$175 carbon levers (the only standard brake levers Campy sells, AFAIK).
How's that for predatory? Certainly doesn't seem like Campy is
staying with "the same reliable, familiar, and durable gear year after
year".

Those Campy BE shifters are pricey, but you can get nice CaneCreek/
Tektro brake levers for <$30... or use Shimano ones... and put the BE
shifters where they belong.

Bruce the frustrated Campy fan said:

How is Campy different these days? It's getting to be 10s Ergo and
carbon fiber or nuthin'. If I want to stick with downtube shifters, I
can set up a bike with Shimano standard brake levers and DT shifters
for under $100. If I want to go Campy, I have to buy 10s bar-end
shifters & a DT conversion kit for about $200, then finish it off with
$175 carbon levers (the only standard brake levers Campy sells, AFAIK).
How's that for predatory? Certainly doesn't seem like Campy is
staying with "the same reliable, familiar, and durable gear year after
year".

Quoted message said:

Bruce the frustrated Campy fan.

Bruce, Bruce, calm down

You're missing a whole point. You can buy Campy repair parts for years
& years to come. Campy may or may not cost more now, but they are
repairable into perpetuity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe
Nuevo Record repair parts are still available.

Regards John

Dan said:

Callistus Valerius said:

Most likely I will buy another bike 5 years from now, a carbon one let's
say. Will I be able to get it in a 9 speed. I really didn't see any
advantage going from 8 to 9, but I accept the 9. I really don't want a 10
speed. Will you be able to get the upper end bikes in 9 speed 5 years from
now? Also, I just bought a 9 speed rear 105 der, and I've noticed they are
disappearing.

I recently got my 1st 10 speed. Campy Chorus/FSA compact. I like it. I
have gone from a triple 9sp to a compact double 10sp with a fairly wide
range cassette. I have about the same gear range as the old triple and
reasonable steps in gears but I don't have to shift the front as often.

Are you saying that with a "compact double" crank and a 10SP cassette
you are shifting the front *less often* than when using a triple crank
and a 9SP cassette? All whilst retaining "about the same gear range"?

Could you specify the gearing you are talking about? What were the
chainrings used on the triple? What was the 9SP cassette? What
chainrings are on the compact double? What is the "fairly wide range"
10SP cassette?

Quoted message said:

Front shifts are slow and prone to chain dropping which aren't problems
with the rear. Maybe when we get to twelve speed cassettes, we can
forget the front shifting altogether.