9 speed future.

bfd said:

However, I think the problem, especially for Shimano STI users, is not so
much cassettes, but finding replacement STI levers. IF you use Shimano STI
DA or Ultegra 9 now, and it breaks or "wears out," then finding a DA or
Ultegra replacement lever will not only require buying a new shifter, STI
are NOT rebuildable, but you may be limited to only a low end version like a
Tiagra. Not a good scenario and maybe the best reason to go 10 speed!

I would say that it's a good reason to avoid Shimano, since you will have
exactly the same problems with 10-speed as with 9, for twice the cost.

My Campy levers were originally 8-speed. For $35 they are now 9-speed.
Replacement g-springs are a couple of bucks, and that is all you need to
restore it to full function.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "It doesn't get any easier, you just go faster." --Greg LeMond
_`\(,_ |
(_)/ (_) |

In article <[email hidden]>,

Callistus Valerius said:

Most likely I will buy another bike 5 years from now, a carbon one
let's say. Will I be able to get it in a 9 speed. I really didn't
see any advantage going from 8 to 9, but I accept the 9. I really
don't want a 10 speed. Will you be able to get the upper end bikes
in 9 speed 5 years from now? Also, I just bought a 9 speed rear 105
der, and I've noticed they are disappearing.

In 5 years you won't be able to buy 9 speed. You won't be able to buy
10 speed. It'll be 12 speed.

Quoted message said:

Werehatrack said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

so if you have a 9s system and need a new RD-get the 10s one, works
fine and dandy w/o modification.

I think his concern is for the shifters. Shimano's products at the
high end in this area have proven to be less than stunning in the
durability department, and given the short cable throw that Shimano
uses, it's not a given that the tech will be useful when it filters
down to the lower end. Of course, it's irrelevant if you swap to
Campy, where repairability is actually recognized as a virtue in a
product.

My take: For road, avoid Shimano for the long haul. They make nice
bleeding-edge bits if you have the budget, and they flow that downhill
to the midrange after a year or two, but their long-term plan seems
designed around the idea that the users will always be buying new bits
in bunches. To me, that's not just short-sighted, it's predatory.
Lots of non-competitive riders would embrace the idea of staying with
the same relaible, familiar and durable gear year after year if they
could keep it in service for a reasonable cost...but can't justify the
cost of "being a player" at all. The sport loses out when people walk
away due to lack of support for their level of enthusiasm.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

How is Campy different these days?

The same way they've always been different. You can fix their stuff.
They'll sell you the pieces. Good luck getting that from Shimano.

Quoted message said:

If I want to stick with downtube shifters, I
can set up a bike with Shimano standard brake levers and DT shifters
for under $100. If I want to go Campy, I have to buy 10s bar-end
shifters & a DT conversion kit for about $200, then finish it off with
$175 carbon levers (the only standard brake levers Campy sells, AFAIK).

You need a better bike shop. There are many current Campy bits you're
not aware of.

Quoted message said:

How's that for predatory? Certainly doesn't seem like Campy is
staying with "the same reliable, familiar, and durable gear year after
year".

Campy fans can stay with their same reliable gear year after year
because they can fix it. Shimano users end up having to chuck the
mess and replace it when a shifter wears out...and in the process,
they often have to "upgrade" things that they had no intention of
replacing. If 8 sprockets are enough, 9 is not an upgrade, it's an
unwanted expense.

The big question is, of course, will rear cassettes stop at 10 for a
few years, or will Shimano try to boost it to 11 or 12? Is so, *why*?
(Okay, yes, I know, "Because There Are People Who Will Have To Have
Them"; no additional justification is needed for Shimano.)

--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Quoted message said:

Werehatrack said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

so if you have a 9s system and need a new RD-get the 10s one, works
fine and dandy w/o modification.

I think his concern is for the shifters. Shimano's products at the
high end in this area have proven to be less than stunning in the
durability department, and given the short cable throw that Shimano
uses, it's not a given that the tech will be useful when it filters
down to the lower end. Of course, it's irrelevant if you swap to
Campy, where repairability is actually recognized as a virtue in a
product.

My take: For road, avoid Shimano for the long haul. They make nice
bleeding-edge bits if you have the budget, and they flow that downhill
to the midrange after a year or two, but their long-term plan seems
designed around the idea that the users will always be buying new bits
in bunches. To me, that's not just short-sighted, it's predatory.
Lots of non-competitive riders would embrace the idea of staying with
the same relaible, familiar and durable gear year after year if they
could keep it in service for a reasonable cost...but can't justify the
cost of "being a player" at all. The sport loses out when people walk
away due to lack of support for their level of enthusiasm.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

How is Campy different these days? It's getting to be 10s Ergo and
carbon fiber or nuthin'.

As already mentioned, Centaur and Veloce are available with 10 speed
aluminum Ergo levers. Only Record and Chorus are 10 speed carbon Ergo.
Even Nashbar carries Veloce aluminum Ergo levers.

http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=&subcategory=&brand=1112&sku=11287&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=

If I want to stick with downtube shifters, I

Quoted message said:

can set up a bike with Shimano standard brake levers and DT shifters
for under $100. If I want to go Campy, I have to buy 10s bar-end
shifters & a DT conversion kit for about $200, then finish it off with
$175 carbon levers (the only standard brake levers Campy sells, AFAIK).

Campagnolo did let the old time downtube lever lovers down. They never
made them for 10 speed. Your best bet is to use the Campagnolo bar end
shifters in the bar ends. Bar end shifters are far better than
downtube shifters. As for brake levers, they do not have to be
Campagnolo. I know the beautiful carbon Record brake levers are the
only ones they sell, but any old brake levers will work. You're not
locked in to Campagnolo.

Quoted message said:

How's that for predatory? Certainly doesn't seem like Campy is
staying with "the same reliable, familiar, and durable gear year after
year".

Bruce the frustrated Campy fan.

I'm not on a high horse, I'm on a retro horse. I must not have
'splained myself clearly.

I'm talking about downtube shifters and standard brake levers, not
Ergo. My point is just that Campy has this reputation of continuing to
sell and support their older products, emphasizing backward
compatibility, not following trendy marketing strategies like Shimano,
etc.. I'm not so sure they deserve that reputation any more. At least
not all of it. As a Campy fan, I don't have any reasonable options for
going with Campy if I want to use downtube shifters. Campy has NOT let
us down on the design and repairability of Ergo. They deserve to be
congratulated for that. I have no doubt that they will continue
selling repair parts for current Ergo products for years to come. For
all I know they might be doing the same for Nuovo Record parts (as John
suggests in another post), but I know that I can't buy a new Nuovo
Record downtube shifter or a Nuovo Record brake lever from Campy. I
can, however, buy new downtube shifters and nice alloy brake levers
from Shimano, all for less than $100. So who better deserves the
reputation for supporting older products? I don't claim to have any
business or marketing expertise, but it sure seems like Campy is
missing an important part of the market, and an important segment of
their loyal fan base.

Bruce

I believe it was Campy that went to 10 spd first. Shimano followed.
Shouldn't you be directing that last criticism to Campy? Maybe they'll
be the ones to push it to 11 spd, dumping 10spd in the process...

Bruce

If you want to use Campy brake calipers, I believe you are locked into
Campy levers (the quick release is in the lever - no Campy lever, no
quick release).

Bruce

Dave Mayer said:

"mitosis" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It'll be 12 speed in 5 years. 😉

Quoted message said:

mitosis

More than 10? Doubt it - cogs spacing and chains now are so narrow that
there is only one way for roadies to get more gears. That's by increasing
the rear stay spacing to 135mm (as in mountain bikes). This is pretty much
a pointless proposition, in that 8 cogs in the back was more than enough. 9
had little marginal value. 10 only demonstrates that the manufacturers have
run out of ideas, and are just adding another cog every 4 years as part of a
strategy of planned obsolescence and to create some 'new and improved' hype.

However, this strategy does work; I see it in action when I'm advising folks
at work in buying bikes. The number of "speeds" is a major selling point to
the innocent. So is full suspension. Drop the uninformed into a bike
buying situation, and they'd appraise my 2 x 7-speed Pinarello as junk.
Left to their own devices, they'll come home with a 45-pound 27-speed
pogostick monstrosity from Wallyworld. For cruising around the pavement in
the 'hood.

I'm happy with what I have now, and don't intend to spend anything but
maintenance money on my drivetrain until I can get a (light and efficient)
internally geared hub with 10+ evenly spaced gears. Infinite variable
transmission - even better. For that I would be willing to drop serious
money.

My comment was more tongue in cheek. But 15 years ago everyone thought 8 speed was the maximum.

Never know what they can do with narrow chain and sprockets.

Quoted message said:

I believe it was Campy that went to 10 spd first. Shimano followed.
Shouldn't you be directing that last criticism to Campy? Maybe
they'll be the ones to push it to 11 spd, dumping 10spd in the
process...

When did they dump 9, or 8 for that matter?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Quoted message said:

If you want to use Campy brake calipers, I believe you are locked into
Campy levers (the quick release is in the lever - no Campy lever, no
quick release).

*sigh* Myths like these keep getting perpetuated.

The Cane Creek SCR-5 is very similar to Campy levers, and it includes the
same quick release mechanism that the Campy levers do.

The Tektro R200 brake levers are also shaped exactly like Campy and have an
integrated quick-release.

Please do research first.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Quoted message said:

pick up a dropped chain but I have only dropped it once. I would like
a chain keeper but the seat tube is not round and I haven't looked
into figuring out how to do it yet.

If you find out how, let me know.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Tim McNamara said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Callistus Valerius said:

Most likely I will buy another bike 5 years from now, a carbon one
let's say. Will I be able to get it in a 9 speed. I really didn't
see any advantage going from 8 to 9, but I accept the 9. I really
don't want a 10 speed. Will you be able to get the upper end bikes
in 9 speed 5 years from now? Also, I just bought a 9 speed rear 105
der, and I've noticed they are disappearing.

In 5 years you won't be able to buy 9 speed. You won't be able to buy
10 speed. It'll be 12 speed.

Five years ago they said we wouldn't be able to buy 8 speed now. But,
we can.

David L. Johnson said:

My Campy levers were originally 8-speed. For $35 they are now 9-speed.
Replacement g-springs are a couple of bucks, and that is all you need to
restore it to full function.

Both true and also misleading. Most people do not replace the springs
or do the shift disk conversion's themselves but rely on a mechanic,
if they can find one that can do the job. The $35 shift disk, $10
springs, and $25 labor make it a $70 job. Frequently, you need the
$10 spring carrier. Frequently the shop also replaces the
cables/housings and bartape with the job and it becomes a $100 job.
The lever is like new, especially if you replace the $35 hoods.

On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 09:55:46 -0700, Dan <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Front shifts are slow and prone to chain dropping which aren't problems
with the rear. Maybe when we get to twelve speed cassettes, we can
forget the front shifting altogether.

That is not always true. Front shifts can be smooth and fast and
chains don't have to drop.

Doug Taylor said:

Worse, I have heard that the Campy compact
front ders. are not compatible with FSA crank/rings.

Not true. I have set up many of them and own 4.

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Campagnolo did let the old time downtube lever lovers down. They never
made them for 10 speed. Your best bet is to use the Campagnolo bar end
shifters in the bar ends. Bar end shifters are far better than
downtube shifters.

See how easy it is to get into an argument, even when you
are on the side of the angels? For me down tube shifters
are better than bar end shifters because bar end shifters
have all that cable housing to route on the bars, and the
extra shifter cable drag to account for

--
Michael Press

Paul Kopit said:

David L. Johnson said:

My Campy levers were originally 8-speed. For $35 they are now 9-speed.
Replacement g-springs are a couple of bucks, and that is all you need to
restore it to full function.

Both true and also misleading. Most people do not replace the springs
or do the shift disk conversion's themselves but rely on a mechanic,
if they can find one that can do the job. The $35 shift disk, $10
springs, and $25 labor make it a $70 job. Frequently, you need the
$10 spring carrier. Frequently the shop also replaces the
cables/housings and bartape with the job and it becomes a $100 job.

Well, you don't need a shift disk every time you replace the g-springs.
Also, most people would not replace their STIs either, and the shop would
tend to replace the cables,housings, and tape while replacing the lever.
Big difference here is the $200 for the levers versus $2 for a g-spring,
and, if you insist, $10 for the spring carrier.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | You will say Christ saith this and the apostles say this; but
_`\(,_ | what canst thou say? -- George Fox.
(_)/ (_) |

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 02:49:54 +0000, Paul Kopit wrote:

Big difference here is the $200 for the levers versus $2 for a g-spring,
and, if you insist, $10 for the spring carrier.

$2 for a g-spring?! Hey, that's a great price, where can we get some?

Paul Kopit said:

David L. Johnson said:

My Campy levers were originally 8-speed. For $35 they are now 9-speed.
Replacement g-springs are a couple of bucks, and that is all you need to
restore it to full function.

Both true and also misleading. Most people do not replace the springs
or do the shift disk conversion's themselves but rely on a mechanic,
if they can find one that can do the job. The $35 shift disk, $10
springs, and $25 labor make it a $70 job. Frequently, you need the
$10 spring carrier. Frequently the shop also replaces the
cables/housings and bartape with the job and it becomes a $100 job.
The lever is like new, especially if you replace the $35 hoods.

Still less than a set of Sora.

Ron

Quoted message said:

Werehatrack said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

so if you have a 9s system and need a new RD-get the 10s one, works
fine and dandy w/o modification.

I think his concern is for the shifters. Shimano's products at the
high end in this area have proven to be less than stunning in the
durability department, and given the short cable throw that Shimano
uses, it's not a given that the tech will be useful when it filters
down to the lower end. Of course, it's irrelevant if you swap to
Campy, where repairability is actually recognized as a virtue in a
product.

My take: For road, avoid Shimano for the long haul. They make nice
bleeding-edge bits if you have the budget, and they flow that downhill
to the midrange after a year or two, but their long-term plan seems
designed around the idea that the users will always be buying new bits
in bunches. To me, that's not just short-sighted, it's predatory.
Lots of non-competitive riders would embrace the idea of staying with
the same relaible, familiar and durable gear year after year if they
could keep it in service for a reasonable cost...but can't justify the
cost of "being a player" at all. The sport loses out when people walk
away due to lack of support for their level of enthusiasm.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

How is Campy different these days? It's getting to be 10s Ergo and
carbon fiber or nuthin'. If I want to stick with downtube shifters, I
can set up a bike with Shimano standard brake levers and DT shifters
for under $100. If I want to go Campy, I have to buy 10s bar-end
shifters & a DT conversion kit for about $200, then finish it off with
$175 carbon levers (the only standard brake levers Campy sells, AFAIK).
How's that for predatory? Certainly doesn't seem like Campy is
staying with "the same reliable, familiar, and durable gear year after
year".

I certainly wouldn't paint all of Campagnolo with this brush for
downtube shifters. Altho it is true these repairable and convertible
shiofters are expensive, NOS older ones plus standard brake levers are
easily avialable for less $. I think the point is that even $125 Mirage
levers can be 10s...NO need to be all carbon and titanium.

The point about shimano is that 2003 DA 9s levers, when they fail in
the 2006-7 range, out of warranty, will not be available as a
replacement...10s only, thanks, so pony up for a $195 10s cogset and
$35 chain. Whereas these 2004 Record shifters need repair....you know
the drill. Altho both companies have aggressive marketing departments,
shimano's philosophy is much less consumer friendly than Campagnolo.

Quoted message said:

Bruce the frustrated Campy fan.