Rolf wheels safety

Dave Gittins said:

The other day, a friend of mine had a nasty fall. She was using Rolf
wheels. I don't know the precise model. They have thin round spokes
arranged in pairs. There may be 20 or 24 spokes in all.

From what we can work out, it appears that as she was turning at no great
speed, about a foot of the rim of her front wheel folded over, causing the
wheel to jam in the forks.

Has anybody experienced anything like this?

--
Dave Gittins

Author of Titanic: Monument & Warning
http://users.senet.com.au/~gittins/Book.html

How old were the wheels or how many miles had they been ridden? I've
worn rims down until they're so thin they split and fold like you
mentioned. If they're new and it really was a JRA you need to contact
the bike shop and Rolf.

Laters,

Marz

Dave Gittins said:

From what we can work out, it appears that as she was turning at no great
speed, about a foot of the rim of her front wheel folded over, causing the
wheel to jam in the forks.

Do you mean the braking surface of the rim folded over, or the wheel
went out of true (tacoed)?

How many miles on the wheel?

A picture would be helpful.

Art Harris

Dave Gittins said:

The other day, a friend of mine had a nasty fall. She was using
Rolf wheels. I don't know the precise model. They have thin round
spokes arranged in pairs. There may be 20 or 24 spokes in all.

Quoted message said:

From what we can work out, it appears that as she was turning at no
great speed, about a foot of the rim of her front wheel folded over,
causing the wheel to jam in the forks.

From what you say it is not clear what sort of deformation the wheel
had. Just riding along will not bend a wheel sideways, there being no
side loads on bicycle wheels without some gymnastics on the bicycle.
Are any spokes broken? I suspect this is a Rolf Vector Pro wheel with
14 spokes.

http://www.craigslist.org/sby/bik/146415277.html

With one broken spoke this wheel goes out of true enough that it will
not pass through a dual pivot (the most common) type brake, these
brakes not being able to follow a wobbly rim as former brakes did.
Don't ride this sort of wheel unless you value fashion more than
function.

Quoted message said:

Has anybody experienced anything like this?

We need more details.

Jobst Brandt

The wheel didn't taco, as Americans picturesquely say. About a foot of it
just folded over and the rest stayed substantially true. I believe the
wheel had been used for quite some time, but the braking surfaces were not
much worn. It had at least 20 spokes and none were bent or broken.

--
Dave Gittins

Author of Titanic: Monument & Warning
http://users.senet.com.au/~gittins/Book.html

Dave Gittins said:

The wheel didn't taco, as Americans picturesquely say. About a foot of it
just folded over and the rest stayed substantially true. I believe the
wheel had been used for quite some time, but the braking surfaces were not
much worn. It had at least 20 spokes and none were bent or broken.

"Not much worn" may be more worn than you think. It sounds like the
rim flange folded on one side, is that correct? This occurs only due
to serious overinflation and/or a defective rim, or brake surface
wear. If there was enough brake wear to produce a significant ridge,
the rim was probably just worn to the point that it was going to fail.
The Rolf wheels have a good reputation; I doubt that a defect is
involved, though their propensity for going wavy when a spoke breaks
is enough to make me not want any.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

It wasn't just the flange. The entire rim folded over for about a foot.

--
Dave Gittins

Author of Titanic: Monument & Warning
http://users.senet.com.au/~gittins/Book.html

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Dave Gittins said:

The wheel didn't taco, as Americans picturesquely say. About a foot
of it just folded over and the rest stayed substantially true. I
believe the wheel had been used for quite some time, but the braking
surfaces were not much worn. It had at least 20 spokes and none were
bent or broken.

Would a photo be possible? It'd be worth a thousand words, as the
saying goes. Otherwise it's very hard to imagine what you're
describing, and it sounds like a failure I've never seen.

Dave Gittins said:

It wasn't just the flange. The entire rim folded over for about a foot.

If no spokes broke and the rim "folded over" could you post a picture
on some free web site so we can see it. Your description doesn't make
clear what happened and how.

Quoted message said:

Author of Titanic: Monument & Warning
http://users.senet.com.au/~gittins/Book.html

On that note, you might read:

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

Jobst Brandt

Werehatrack said:

Dave Gittins said:

The wheel didn't taco, as Americans picturesquely say. About a foot of it
just folded over and the rest stayed substantially true. I believe the
wheel had been used for quite some time, but the braking surfaces were not
much worn. It had at least 20 spokes and none were bent or broken.

"Not much worn" may be more worn than you think. It sounds like the
rim flange folded on one side, is that correct? This occurs only due
to serious overinflation and/or a defective rim, or brake surface
wear. If there was enough brake wear to produce a significant ridge,
the rim was probably just worn to the point that it was going to fail.
The Rolf wheels have a good reputation; I doubt that a defect is
involved, though their propensity for going wavy when a spoke breaks
is enough to make me not want any.

I'd like to see a picture too. I'd also like to know the specs for
acceptable rim wear, as I ride these wheels (Rolf Sestriere) myself.

FWIW, I probably have ~7k miles on mine with few problems. I did break
two spokes in my rear wheel once, due to a freak water bottle incident,
but believe it or not I was able to ride home. The wheel trued up nicely
again with even tension, and has been trouble free ever since. I did go
through and stress relieve both wheels carefully at that point. Before
that they needed attention every few hundred miles.

Frankly I don't think the paired spoke pattern makes much difference.
It's the number of spokes and the strength of the rim. Other wheels with
the same number of spokes and a similar rim (like Ritchey) will be pretty
much the same.

These wheels wouldn't have been my first choice, but they came with a
bike. I considered selling them when they were still new and
replacing them with something more conventional, but I never got around to
it. So far, so good.

I just want to be careful about rim wear. Mine seem to have plenty of
life left, but I ride in the mountains, and get rained on a lot too.

Matt O.

The wheel was a Rolf Prima Elan. She says she always checked the braking
surfaces and they were OK. Tyre pressure was 110psi. No photo at present.

--
Dave Gittins

Author of Titanic: Monument & Warning
http://users.senet.com.au/~gittins/Book.html

Quoted message said:

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

Jobst Brandt

So do you believe this, or do you consider this a joke?

Personally I've always felt 9-11 was likely an 'inside job'. It
was my gut feeling on the day of the event, and all the evidence
I've seen since hasn't changed my mind. All you need to do
is take one look at how WTC7 collapsed. People don't like to
hear to last 5 years of their life have been a lie.

http://www.st911.org/

(Really not wanting to open this can of worms in a bike group)

Eric

Matt O'Toole said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The wheel didn't taco, as Americans picturesquely say. About a
foot of it just folded over and the rest stayed substantially
true. I believe the wheel had been used for quite some time, but
the braking surfaces were not much worn. It had at least 20
spokes and none were bent or broken.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Not much worn" may be more worn than you think. It sounds like
the rim flange folded on one side, is that correct? This occurs
only due to serious over inflation and/or a defective rim, or brake
surface wear. If there was enough brake wear to produce a
significant ridge, the rim was probably just worn to the point that
it was going to fail. The Rolf wheels have a good reputation; I
doubt that a defect is involved, though their propensity for going
wavy when a spoke breaks is enough to make me not want any.

Quoted message said:

I'd like to see a picture too. I'd also like to know the specs for
acceptable rim wear, as I ride these wheels (Rolf Sestriere) myself.

Rim wear has almost nothing to do with wheel strength although it can
affect circumferential cracking and separation of the rim sidewall.
As I have mentioned here in the past, I rode an MA-2 rim in the Alps
in the rain until its sidewalls were a mere 0.5mm thick with no wheel
strength problem, although I dared not use the front brake descending
the Stelvio in pouring rain. As soon as things dried up I was back to
full brake performance descending in the Dolomites. I have a cross
section of that rim in my collection.

Quoted message said:

FWIW, I probably have ~7k miles on mine with few problems. I did
break two spokes in my rear wheel once, due to a freak water bottle
incident, but believe it or not I was able to ride home. The wheel
trued up nicely again with even tension, and has been trouble free
ever since. I did go through and stress relieve both wheels
carefully at that point. Before that they needed attention every
few hundred miles.

That has no bearing on wheel collapse.

Quoted message said:

Frankly I don't think the paired spoke pattern makes much
difference. It's the number of spokes and the strength of the rim.
Other wheels with the same number of spokes and a similar rim (like
Ritchey) will be pretty much the same.

It makes a lot of negative difference, it being essentially a rim with
half as many but twice as thick spokes. Would you choose to ride a
seven spoke wheel which is what the rim sees in a 14 spoke Rolf wheel.

Quoted message said:

These wheels wouldn't have been my first choice, but they came with
a bike. I considered selling them when they were still new and
replacing them with something more conventional, but I never got
around to it. So far, so good.

Shoulda done that!

Quoted message said:

I just want to be careful about rim wear. Mine seem to have plenty
of life left, but I ride in the mountains, and get rained on a lot
too.

Forget about the wear, it's the whole concept of the 1890 Lovelace
patent that remained dormant for good reason for 100 years. Because
Rolf Dietrich's patent is worthless in the light of Lovelace, TREK no
longer pays the man royalties not uses his wheels OEM.

It has nothing going for it other than fashion conversation piece.

Jobst Brandt

Dave Gittins said:

The wheel was a Rolf Prima Elan. She says she always checked the
braking surfaces and they were OK. Tyre pressure was 110psi. No
photo at present.

Explain once more the circumstances under which the wheel got warped.

Jobst Brandt

Eric Boo writes:

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

Quoted message said:

So do you believe this, or do you consider this a joke?

As you can see by reading it and seeing who authored it and on who's
web site it resides, it is not a joke and has merit as a searching
question with reasons why the question needs to be asked and
researched. Everythin about this reminds me of the great governmental
cover-ups of the past, except that this one is extra tragic and right
here at home. My reading of the GWB speech right afterward impressed
me as a declaration of WWIII, which it turned out to be. The whole
mess stinks from day one!

Quoted message said:

Personally I've always felt 9-11 was likely an 'inside job'. It was
my gut feeling on the day of the event, and all the evidence I've
seen since hasn't changed my mind. All you need to do is take one
look at how WTC7 collapsed. People don't like to hear to last 5
years of their life have been a lie.

http://www.st911.org/

Quoted message said:

(Really not wanting to open this can of worms in a bike group)

It deserves air for those who do not search the web for such
information. Turning a blind eye to what our nation is doing in the
world makes RBR idle talk. I miss Richard Feynman in things like this
because he could, in plain English, distill the essence of it.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Eric Boo writes:

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

Quoted message said:

So do you believe this, or do you consider this a joke?

As you can see by reading it and seeing who authored it and on who's
web site it resides, it is not a joke and has merit as a searching
question with reasons why the question needs to be asked and
researched. Everythin about this reminds me of the great governmental
cover-ups of the past, except that this one is extra tragic and right
here at home. My reading of the GWB speech right afterward impressed
me as a declaration of WWIII, which it turned out to be. The whole
mess stinks from day one!

(...)

Yeah it stinks. It [censored] reeks.

Here's how I see it. We've entered an era of resource
wars. We've got an exploding global population with a
widening gap between the 'haves' and the 'have-nots'.
Combine this with declining resources (peak oil) and
an economy based on growth and you've got a recipe for
disaster.

Bush and Cheney are both former oil-men and are well
aware of the magnitude of the problem. America consumes
a quarter of the global oil pie (20 million barrels A
DAY). Any serious disruptions or declines in the supply
would crush the american economy like an empty beer can.
Already the higher cost of oil is severly pinching parts
of the economy - just look at the airlines

'War of Terror' is utterly bogus. You might as well declare
a 'War on Murder' as you can't stop terrorism any more
than you can stop people from killing each other.
Unfortunately we've now sown the seeds of hatred in
Iraq and we will likely be facing blow-back from this
for decades to come.

It's really a war to hopefully secure some of the last
large reserves of oil on the planet and prop up the
petro-dollar. 9-11 was used to gut the constitution
as well as loot large parts of the budget - look at
all the no-bid contracts in Iraq. Our leaders probably
are aware there's a high probablility of an economic
meltdown and they want to clamp down while they still
can.

What's sad is the utter cluelessness of most of the American
public on this issue. Our leaders have decided to use
war to attempt to solve the problem, IMO. Unfortuntely
there are no easy or simple solutions to the problem
of peak oil (read - the end of cheap energy). It's a
dire problem that's not being addressed.

Eric

Quoted message said:

With one broken spoke this wheel goes out of true enough that it will
not pass through a dual pivot (the most common) type brake, these
brakes not being able to follow a wobbly rim as former brakes did.
Don't ride this sort of wheel unless you value fashion more than
function.

You keep saying this, and yet when I broke a spoke in mine, I was still able
to ride home without it rubbing on the brake. Yes, I had to open up the
brake (with the lever on the brake), but I didn't have to remove the cable,
or the pads. I did have to offset it slightly to the side. And it's not as
if I'm a lightweight guy (at the time, about 185; fortunately a bit lighter
now).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dave Gittins said:

The other day, a friend of mine had a nasty fall. She was using
Rolf wheels. I don't know the precise model. They have thin round
spokes arranged in pairs. There may be 20 or 24 spokes in all.

Quoted message said:

From what we can work out, it appears that as she was turning at no
great speed, about a foot of the rim of her front wheel folded over,
causing the wheel to jam in the forks.

From what you say it is not clear what sort of deformation the wheel
had. Just riding along will not bend a wheel sideways, there being no
side loads on bicycle wheels without some gymnastics on the bicycle.
Are any spokes broken? I suspect this is a Rolf Vector Pro wheel with
14 spokes.

http://www.craigslist.org/sby/bik/146415277.html

With one broken spoke this wheel goes out of true enough that it will
not pass through a dual pivot (the most common) type brake, these
brakes not being able to follow a wobbly rim as former brakes did.
Don't ride this sort of wheel unless you value fashion more than
function.

Quoted message said:

Has anybody experienced anything like this?

We need more details.

Jobst Brandt

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The other day, a friend of mine had a nasty fall. She was using
Rolf wheels. I don't know the precise model. They have thin
round spokes arranged in pairs. There may be 20 or 24 spokes in
all.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From what we can work out, it appears that as she was turning at
no great speed, about a foot of the rim of her front wheel folded
over, causing the wheel to jam in the forks.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From what you say it is not clear what sort of deformation the
wheel had. Just riding along will not bend a wheel sideways, there
being no side loads on bicycle wheels without some gymnastics on
the bicycle. Are any spokes broken? I suspect this is a Rolf
Vector Pro wheel with 14 spokes.

http://www.craigslist.org/sby/bik/146415277.html

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

With one broken spoke this wheel goes out of true enough that it
will not pass through a dual pivot (the most common) type brake,
these brakes not being able to follow a wobbly rim as former brakes
did. Don't ride this sort of wheel unless you value fashion more
than function.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Has anybody experienced anything like this?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We need more details.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

With one broken spoke this wheel goes out of true enough that it
will not pass through a dual pivot (the most common) type brake,
these brakes not being able to follow a wobbly rim as former brakes
did. Don't ride this sort of wheel unless you value fashion more
than function.

Quoted message said:

You keep saying this, and yet when I broke a spoke in mine, I was
still able to ride home without it rubbing on the brake. Yes, I had
to open up the brake (with the lever on the brake), but I didn't
have to remove the cable, or the pads. I did have to offset it
slightly to the side. And it's not as if I'm a lightweight guy (at
the time, about 185; fortunately a bit lighter now).

So how well did your brake work when the QR was open. My old
Campagnolo Record Brake just wobbles from side to side as it clamps on
the rim as though nothing had changed. It is capable of swiveling
from side to side with no change in cable length, something a dual
pivot brake cannot do. It remains absolutely centered.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Eric Boo writes:

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

Quoted message said:

So do you believe this, or do you consider this a joke?

As you can see by reading it and seeing who authored it and on who's
web site it resides, it is not a joke and has merit as a searching
question with reasons why the question needs to be asked and
researched. Everythin about this reminds me of the great
governmental cover-ups of the past, except that this one is extra
tragic and right here at home. My reading of the GWB speech right
afterward impressed me as a declaration of WWIII, which it turned
out to be. The whole mess stinks from day one!

(...)

Yeah it stinks. It [censored] reeks.

Here's how I see it. We've entered an era of resource
wars. We've got an exploding global population with a
widening gap between the 'haves' and the 'have-nots'.
Combine this with declining resources (peak oil) and
an economy based on growth and you've got a recipe for
disaster.

Bush and Cheney are both former oil-men and are well
aware of the magnitude of the problem. America consumes
a quarter of the global oil pie (20 million barrels A
DAY). Any serious disruptions or declines in the supply
would crush the american economy like an empty beer can.
Already the higher cost of oil is severly pinching parts
of the economy - just look at the airlines

'War of Terror' is utterly bogus. You might as well declare
a 'War on Murder' as you can't stop terrorism any more
than you can stop people from killing each other.
Unfortunately we've now sown the seeds of hatred in
Iraq and we will likely be facing blow-back from this
for decades to come.

It's really a war to hopefully secure some of the last
large reserves of oil on the planet and prop up the
petro-dollar. 9-11 was used to gut the constitution
as well as loot large parts of the budget - look at
all the no-bid contracts in Iraq. Our leaders probably
are aware there's a high probablility of an economic
meltdown and they want to clamp down while they still
can.

What's sad is the utter cluelessness of most of the American
public on this issue. Our leaders have decided to use
war to attempt to solve the problem, IMO. Unfortuntely
there are no easy or simple solutions to the problem
of peak oil (read - the end of cheap energy). It's a
dire problem that's not being addressed.

Eric

What a pair of maroons.

PARANOID maroons.

Take it private, foilheads.

NF

Dave Gittins said:

It had at least 20 spokes and none were bent or broken.

Did any of the spoke nipples in the affected area pull through
(separate from) the rim?

Quoted message said:

From your description, it's hard to see how the wheel could have warped

like that without something breaking. Is it possible the wheel damaged
was the result of the crash and not the cause?

Art Harris