Discovery in disarray.... ?

DV1976 said:

I believe that is what you suggested in the other thread.
You accused Hoste and Boonen of colluding yet colluding is what you suggest only this time it's ok because it could favour Hincapie?

Not favoring Hincapie, but favoring DC for the only shot they had at victory. Either Hoste or Hincapie on the podium. 1st place....

DV1976 said:

1) Why would Ballan and PVP collude with the DS boys?

If they all were off the front the most important thing for the group would be to lose the sprinter. Beating Boonen at the line would be impossible.

DV1976 said:

2) Why do you assume that Ballan, PVP and Hincapie could follow Boonen?

We don't know if they could. But we don't know that they couldn't either.

DV1976 said:

I don't remember anybody being able to follow him last year. Give me a good reason why would that work and why Boonen wouldn't happily follow wheels (probably along with Bettini) until the last climb or until the final sprint?

They probably couldn't and Boonen would most likely would win . But when Hoste went off the front alone he threw the VICTORY FOR HIM AND HIS TEAM AWAY. . Everyone thinks second place is a great place, but it is considered a loss when you go into the race wanting a victory. No one will remember him in a few years for this. But we will be talking about Boonen forever. Everyone thinks that Boonen is a sure lock in this race. Eddy Merckx lost this race far more times then he won it. As good as Boonen is, he has to maintain this WINNING level for years before he can be compared to Merckx. Everyone is beatable.

[QUOTE=DV1976 3) Why is Demol's fault if PVP and Ballan wouldn't want to play ball with Hicapie? [/QUOTE]
I never spoke of that.

[quote="DV1976 4) Seriously. Would you ever see Armstrong let Ullrich or Basso go (no matter what the strategy was) if he had the legs to follow? Because to me what happened is obvious. Hincapie had (in cycling terms) all the time in the world to decide whether he should join the break (they stayed within close distance for so long that it was almost an open invitation) or demand from Hoste to abandon it. The fact that did nothing proves either that he had no legs or that he was not the team leader.[/QUOTE"] Armstrong was a totally different rider. He could win on his own, Hoste and Hincapie cannot. I read where Hoste attacked when Hincapie was boxed in and could not react. Somewhere along the line Hincapie was left out of the converstion. Your team leader should never be surprised at an attack of a team mate. And if Hincapie did bridge and brought the group with him, we would now be discussing Hincapies lack of tactics.

And we are assuming that Hoste and Boonen was so strong that the group could not attack. but they had Hincapie/Bettini working thir butts off to prevent that..... And the motor pace help came at a time when that other rider was trying to bridge.

[quote="doctorSpoc why would they ever give up a absolutely assured 2nd place... that would be REALLY stupid... [/QUOTE"]
A champion considers second place the worst place that he can have.

limerickman said:

Either way, WBT is correct - DC are in some disarray.

[font=Verdana]WBT started this thread about Discovery’s disarray and many argued with me but it only took around 2km in the 2nd Classic of the year to prove that I was right. Yet again WBT is the prophet on all things cycling. Further evidence will become apparent in Paris-Roubaix. 🙂 [/font]

whiteboytrash said:

[font=Verdana]WBT started this thread about Discovery’s disarray and many argued with me but it only took around 2km in the 2nd Classic of the year to prove that I was right. Yet again WBT is the prophet on all things cycling. Further evidence will become apparent in Paris-Roubaix. 🙂 [/font]

I think that there is a degree of disarray at DC.

They've had to change their entire mindset regarding the sport.
Instead of focussing on one rider, for one race per season : they now have to try to be a more rounded team.

limerickman said:

I think that there is a degree of disarray at DC.

They've had to change their entire mindset regarding the sport.
Instead of focussing on one rider, for one race per season : they now have to try to be a more rounded team.

I agree, they will have problems to change their way of racing, not one mr. big anymore - a lot of mr. almost bigs....

whiteboytrash said:

[font=Verdana]WBT started this thread about Discovery’s disarray and many argued with me but it only took around 2km in the 2nd Classic of the year to prove that I was right. Yet again WBT is the prophet on all things cycling. Further evidence will become apparent in Paris-Roubaix. 🙂 [/font]

Excellent! And your predictions for P-R 1, 2 and 3 are?

Or are you simply going to say that a DC rider will not win? Because we really don't need a prophet for that. 😉

For want its worth I really do not think DC is having a bad season thus far. Considering that they are clearly in a phase of rebuilding and trying to re-invent themselves.

There maybe some disarray but I would simply put that down to the learning process they are currently going through.

wolfix said:

If they all were off the front the most important thing for the group would be to lose the sprinter. Beating Boonen at the line would be impossible.

It was obvious that they couldn't lose him. What Hoste did made much more sense as I think that he expected some other QS rider and not Boonen to follow.

Quoted post said:

We don't know if they could. But we don't know that they couldn't either.

We know... The couldn't because they didn't. They didn't even try

Quoted post said:

They probably couldn't and Boonen would most likely would win . But when Hoste went off the front alone he threw the VICTORY FOR HIM AND HIS TEAM AWAY. . Everyone thinks second place is a great place, but it is considered a loss when you go into the race wanting a victory. No one will remember him in a few years for this. But we will be talking about Boonen forever.

What Hoste did was the most reasonable thing to do. It didn't work out and it probably wouldn't but he gave it a shot. As I said it wasn't meant (probably) for Boonen to follow but for Bettini or/and Pozzato. Hincapie should have reacted. He had the time to think it over and he did nothing. It's harsh to blame Hoste...On top of that I think that Hoste was in better shape than Hincapie so it's only fair that he got second.

Quoted post said:

Armstrong was a totally different rider. He could win on his own, Hoste and Hincapie cannot. I read where Hoste attacked when Hincapie was boxed in and could not react. Somewhere along the line Hincapie was left out of the converstion. Your team leader should never be surprised at an attack of a team mate. And if Hincapie did bridge and brought the group with him, we would now be discussing Hincapies lack of tactics.

Sorry but it seems that at this point you haven't seen the race so your opinion is biased by what you've read. Hincapie was not boxed out. Hoste and Booned stayed within 5 seconds for about 2 minutes and actually Cancellara tried to bridge the gap but couldn't. It was Hincapie's call and he did nothing and that simply tells me that Hoste had the better legs. And from Demol's point of view why risk a second place then (and possibly a win) just to satisfy Hincapie's ego?
As for Armstrong I think that if you can't win on your own then you shouldn't be a team leader (on one hand) and moreover, it's not the point whether he can win on his own or not. The point is that if your main rival does something, you react. You don't expect from others to bail you out...

musette said:

Hincapie observes on G-W: ""He's [Boonen is] probably going to be taking it calmly on Wednesday, not pushing himself too hard," 2001 Ghent-Wevelgem winner George Hincapie told Reuters." "He [Boonen] won't want to risk going all-out. Paris-Roubaix is too important for him," added the American."

I think Hincapie has a point. If DC is serious about trying to win P-R, they should adopt a strategy of trying to push Boonen & Q-S hard at G-W. That way, DC either (i) tires out some Q-S riders, even if Boonen himself is not going to be drawn in, or (ii) improves DC's chances at winning G-W if Q-S is cautious at G-W, which would be a good consolation prize if Boonen won both Tour of Flanders and P-R.

think you'll find that Hincapie probably did the silly thing of trying to win today, instead of just training for sunday like Boonen 🙂

DV1976 said:

It was obvious that they couldn't lose him. What Hoste did made much more sense as I think that he expected some other QS rider and not Boonen to follow.

After watching the race today my argument that Hoste cost Discovery any chance that they may have had seems more probable....... You state that no one had any chance in Flanders even if the group of strong riders managed to hang together. I stated that the only chance they had was if they all worked against Boonen......
Today the race went down excactly like I suggested that Flanders should have gone down ..... Except that Petacchi was the rider. Using your reasoning Petacchi should have never lost .....Let's look at this a minute ..Petacchi is the best sprinter today. Boonen even acknowledges that... So we have Milran with a strong lead out man ...... Zabel , who is a fabulously fantastic rIder with experiance. Of all current riders, Zabel has the best palamres in the peloton today. So we have these two going into the final 2 k's, looking unbeatable. ....... What happens..Other riders attack and disrupt the entire process and who wins ???? Not Petacchi..... Hushvovd won because of tactics of the bunch , not because he is stronger. That is how you beat the best.

wolfix said:

After watching the race today my argument that Hoste cost Discovery any chance that they may have had seems more probable....... You state that no one had any chance in Flanders even if the group of strong riders managed to hang together. I stated that the only chance they had was if they all worked against Boonen......
Today the race went down excactly like I suggested that Flanders should have gone down ..... Except that Petacchi was the rider. Using your reasoning Petacchi should have never lost .....Let's look at this a minute ..Petacchi is the best sprinter today. Boonen even acknowledges that... So we have Milran with a strong lead out man ...... Zabel , who is a fabulously fantastic rIder with experiance. Of all current riders, Zabel has the best palamres in the peloton today. So we have these two going into the final 2 k's, looking unbeatable. ....... What happens..Other riders attack and disrupt the entire process and who wins ???? Not Petacchi..... Hushvovd won because of tactics of the bunch , not because he is stronger. That is how you beat the best.

Yes and no, it's surely a way how you can beat somebody like Petacchi, but Boonen is a different story, he would probebly go with an attack (E 3, Flanders).

cyclingheroes said:

Yes and no, it's surely a way how you can beat somebody like Petacchi, but Boonen is a different story, he would probebly go with an attack (E 3, Flanders).

Multiple attacks .....Boonen may have been able to counter each one , but it was the only chance they had.

wolfix said:

Multiple attacks .....Boonen may have been able to counter each one , but it was the only chance they had.

Yeah that's true but the problem is that at for instance Flanders the team was too strong. KARSTEN Kroon said it was almost impossible to attack because of the pace at most of the hills (Pozzato and Bettini did the job). So ther are not many riders who could have attacked at Flanders. Gent-Wevelgem is almost flat, only the Kemmelberg counts. An entirely different race. Don't forget Gent-Wevelgem doesn't really have priority for Quickstep (they are going for Flanders, P-R and LBL) and Petacchi has won only one classic (M-SR 2005) in his carreer.... By the way, the other thing is, the Milram train isn't as good as the Fassa train was.... Sure Zabel is in it but some of the other German riders are not very convincing

cyclingheroes said:

Yeah that's true but the problem is that at for instance Flanders the team was too strong. KARSTEN Kroon said it was almost impossible to attack because of the pace at most of the hills (Pozzato and Bettini did the job). So ther are not many riders who could have attacked at Flanders. Gent-Wevelgem is almost flat, only the Kemmelberg counts. An entirely different race. Don't forget Gent-Wevelgem doesn't really have priority for Quickstep (they are going for Flanders, P-R and LBL) and Petacchi has won only one classic (M-SR 2005) in his carreer.... By the way, the other thing is, the Milram train isn't as good as the Fassa train was.... Sure Zabel is in it but some of the other German riders are not very convincing

The Milram train was spent with 2km to go.... they had been riding so hard for 10km they they had no lead-out train..... interesting attack by Pozzato... he almost stole it...... as for Discovery... I rest my case.... they were woeful..... What was Hincapie doing ? Trying to win or trying to get 5th ? He was riding to get 5th which is crazy as he has spent just as much energy as he would of getting 1st but will cost him in P-R.... Boonen again outfoxed Hincapie and will break him at P-R.

wolfix said:

After watching the race today my argument that Hoste cost Discovery any chance that they may have had seems more probable....... You state that no one had any chance in Flanders even if the group of strong riders managed to hang together. I stated that the only chance they had was if they all worked against Boonen......
Today the race went down excactly like I suggested that Flanders should have gone down ..... Except that Petacchi was the rider. Using your reasoning Petacchi should have never lost .....Let's look at this a minute ..Petacchi is the best sprinter today. Boonen even acknowledges that... So we have Milran with a strong lead out man ...... Zabel , who is a fabulously fantastic rIder with experiance. Of all current riders, Zabel has the best palamres in the peloton today. So we have these two going into the final 2 k's, looking unbeatable. ....... What happens..Other riders attack and disrupt the entire process and who wins ???? Not Petacchi..... Hushvovd won because of tactics of the bunch , not because he is stronger. That is how you beat the best.

1) Pettachi is the fastest man at the end of a road race for sure.. but in a straight up, controlled sprint.. add any complications... like slight rise, tight corner etc or a head wind (as in this case) and others have a chance.. Bettini has made a career out of beating pure sprinter to the line with complicated run-ins... Pettachi and Boonen are two different animals altogether... Boonen's a road man who can sprint with the straight up, pure sprinters... in a straight forward sprint he's more like McEwen in that he can thread the needle and make it to the front on his own... meaning he is dangerous in any type of run-in.. can win in a bunch sprints or from a small group or alone

2) Thor Hushovd is himself a pure sprinter trying to make the transition to road man.. 1st, 2nd and i think 3rd in the green jersey competition in the tour de France... and Thor is known for winning tough run-in.. slight up hills and as in this case headwinds... so in this case based on history Thor was the danger man

3) Hincapie can't sprint like Thor Hushovd.. not even close!

doctorSpoc said:

1) Pettachi is the fastest man at the end of a road race for sure.. but in a straight up, controlled sprint.. add any complications... like slight rise, tight corner etc or a head wind (as in this case) and others have a chance.. Bettini has made a career out of beating pure sprinter to the line with complicated run-ins... Pettachi and Boonen are two different animals altogether... Boonen's a road man who can sprint with the straight up, pure sprinters... in a straight forward sprint he's more like McEwen in that he can thread the needle and make it to the front on his own... meaning he is dangerous in any type of run-in.. can win in a bunch sprints or from a small group or alone

2) Thor Hushovd is himself a pure sprinter trying to make the transition to road man.. 1st, 2nd and i think 3rd in the green jersey competition in the tour de France... and Thor is known for winning tough run-in.. slight up hills and as in this case headwinds... so in this case based on history Thor was the danger man

3) Hincapie can't sprint like Thor Hushovd.. not even close!

I am sure Hincapie can beat Hushovd depending on the day and the preceding race. For example, if the go into the velodrome together I would bet any amount of money on George. We'll see maybe on SUnday.

hombredesubaru said:

I am sure Hincapie can beat Hushovd depending on the day and the preceding race. For example, if the go into the velodrome together I would bet any amount of money on George. We'll see maybe on SUnday.

No i don't think so, i think Thor Hushovd is much faster...

hombredesubaru said:

I am sure Hincapie can beat Hushovd depending on the day and the preceding race. For example, if the go into the velodrome together I would bet any amount of money on George. We'll see maybe on SUnday.

I would give a slight edge to Thor against Hincapie in a sprint at the end of a P-R in the velodrome... where it is a sprint from a small group.. but there is something you are not getting it... a sprint from a small group is like a match sprint it can be an acceleration from 5km to 60-65km/h (acceleration is the most important thing... McEwen, Boonen, Bettini)... from a large pack with lead out men, it's a sprint from 70km to 80km and the guy who can maintain his speed the longest or not have his speed fall off as fast wins (speed endurance is the important thing... Pettachi, Hushovd, McEwen, Boonen.. guys with high top ends Pettach is the king in this department though).. notice Boonen appear in both lists.. Boonen has great acceleration and great top end... not to the level of a Pettachi but of the best in the world... on top of that he has great tactical sense is an incredibly strong road rider and has the stongest Classics team on earth right now... Hincapie doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell of beating Boonen in a sprint unless he just completely blows it and does something really stupid... Hincapie is stong as an ox but has mediocre acceleration, mediocre top end and has abismal tactical sense and a team that just doesn't seem to know what it's doing at times. Part of the problem with Disco is that they seem to really be centered on Hincapie.. which is a mistake... they need to work as a team... it shouldn't matter who wins.. they have 3 guys on there team who at least have potential to win this thing or be on the podium... they should exploit that... Quickstep does... the other teams know that if Pozzatto or bascially any QS rider goes off the front he's actually going for and his team will fully support him.. it's not a bluff and they have to chase.. it means they have to split resources, watch and chase down everyone on QS... if everyone knows that Hincapie is the man and as far as Disco goes they have on guy to whatch you've just made life easier for the other teams.. <but what are the oddes that Hincapie is going to go out on the attack?? None so they don't even have to what him.>

the point i was trying to make is that i'd give Hincapie more or a chance against Pettachi or Hushovd from a small group after a tough race than i would against Boonen in that situation... and i would not give him that much of a great chance againt Pettachi or Hushovd from a smal group. from a large group Pettachi is the man though 'cause that's where top end is the distinguisher.. when you have a tough run-in i.e. headwind or very slight incline guys like Hushovd that can maintain or have their speed fall off the least are good... it's not a matter if this guy is fast and this guy slow... how and when is this guy fast? Hincapie is just mediocre in every case though... under NO cicumstances should Hincapie be looking for a sprint finish against any one who can sprint (Boonen or VanPetegem (who is a 6 days rider)).. NONE.

doctorSpoc said:

I would give a slight edge to Thor against Hincapie in a sprint at the end of a P-R in the velodrome... where it is a sprint from a small group.. but there is something you are not getting it... a sprint from a small group is like a match sprint it can be an acceleration from 5km to 60-65km/h (acceleration is the most important thing... McEwen, Boonen, Bettini)... from a large pack with lead out men, it's a sprint from 70km to 80km and the guy who can maintain his speed the longest or not have his speed fall off as fast wins (speed endurance is the important thing... Pettachi, Hushovd, McEwen, Boonen.. guys with high top ends Pettach is the king in this department though).. notice Boonen appear in both lists.. Boonen has great acceleration and great top end... not to the level of a Pettachi but of the best in the world... on top of that he has great tactical sense is an incredibly strong road rider and has the stongest Classics team on earth right now... Hincapie doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell of beating Boonen in a sprint unless he just completely blows it and does something really stupid... Hincapie is stong as an ox but has mediocre acceleration, mediocre top end and has abismal tactical sense and a team that just doesn't seem to know what it's doing at times. Part of the problem with Disco is that they seem to really be centered on Hincapie.. which is a mistake... they need to work as a team... it shouldn't matter who wins.. they have 3 guys on there team who at least have potential to win this thing or be on the podium... they should exploit that... Quickstep does... the other teams know that if Pozzatto or bascially any QS rider goes off the front he's actually going for and his team will fully support him.. it's not a bluff and they have to chase.. it means they have to split resources, watch and chase down everyone on QS... if everyone knows that Hincapie is the man and as far as Disco goes they have on guy to whatch you've just made life easier for the other teams.. <but what are the oddes that Hincapie is going to go out on the attack?? None so they don't even have to what him.>

the point i was trying to make is that i'd give Hincapie more or a chance against Pettachi or Hushovd from a small group after a tough race than i would against Boonen in that situation... and i would not give him that much of a great chance againt Pettachi or Hushovd from a smal group. from a large group Pettachi is the man though 'cause that's where top end is the distinguisher.. when you have a tough run-in i.e. headwind or very slight incline guys like Hushovd that can maintain or have their speed fall off the least are good... it's not a matter if this guy is fast and this guy slow... how and when is this guy fast? Hincapie is just mediocre in every case though... under NO cicumstances should Hincapie be looking for a sprint finish against any one who can sprint (Boonen or VanPetegem (who is a 6 days rider)).. NONE.

Hincapie can beat PVP these days. Recall Hincapie started as a sprinter and a very good won. I think he can take Cancellara, Flecha-he did last year, and after 260 km Flanders he beat Bettini, PVP, Cance etc etc with ease.

Hincapie is on form and on fire and will win.

hombredesubaru said:

I am sure Hincapie can beat Hushovd depending on the day and the preceding race. For example, if the go into the velodrome together I would bet any amount of money on George. We'll see maybe on SUnday.

That's rubbish : Hushovd would wipe the floor with Hincapie in a sprint.

hombredesubaru said:

Hincapie can beat PVP these days. Recall Hincapie started as a sprinter and a very good won. I think he can take Cancellara, Flecha-he did last year, and after 260 km Flanders he beat Bettini, PVP, Cance etc etc with ease.

Hincapie is on form and on fire and will win.

Yeah Hincapie is great when sprinting for 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th... in group 2. when no one else really gives a damn he kicks a$$.. who's going to give their all for 3rd place of the 2nd group... guess he's trying to get his upgrade points... joke right.. plus those other guys had to work the whole race unlike Hincapie that just sat on for the whole end of the race thanks to Hoste up the road... man what are you talking about.. 🙄