Discovery in disarray.... ?

doctorSpoc said:

Yeah Hincapie is great when sprinting for 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th... in group 2. when no one else really gives a damn he kicks a$$.. who's going to give their all for 3rd place of the 2nd group... guess he's trying to get his upgrade points... joke right.. plus those other guys had to work the whole race unlike Hincapie that just sat on for the whole end of the race thanks to Hoste up the road... man what are you talking about.. 🙄

You ask ignorant questions, like "Who would sprint for third place, a podium place in Flanders?"
Anyone would becasue its one of the greatest classics.

And as to Hushovd beating George in a velodrome after racing Paris-Roubaix, I'll pic George any day of the week. We'll see of course.

In a typical field sprint at the end of a TdF stage yes maybe Hushovd, but thats in the past when George was working all the stage long to protect Lance. We'll see this year. George has already shown two fine field sprints against a lot of big teams in the TdCAl.

hombredesubaru said:

You ask ignorant questions, like "Who would sprint for third place, a podium place in Flanders?"
Anyone would becasue its one of the greatest classics.

And as to Hushovd beating George in a velodrome after racing Paris-Roubaix, I'll pic George any day of the week. We'll see of course.

In a typical field sprint at the end of a TdF stage yes maybe Hushovd, but thats in the past when George was working all the stage long to protect Lance. We'll see this year. George has already shown two fine field sprints against a lot of big teams in the TdCAl.

i guess you are just going to ignor the 2nd half of the arguement... that Hincapie just followed wheels for the whole last part of the race since Hoste was up the road so was WAY fresher to the line than anyone in that 2nd group which likely accounted for his being able to take out that sprint... doesn't fit into your view of the world. yes 3rd place at flanders is significant but the real point i was making was that when Hincapie wins a sprint it aways seems that it's a sprint in group 2.. never a sprint in for the win in group1 .

doctorSpoc said:

i guess you are just going to ignor the 2nd half of the arguement... that Hincapie just followed wheels for the whole last part of the race since Hoste was up the road so was WAY fresher to the line than anyone in that 2nd group which likely accounted for his being able to take out that sprint... doesn't fit into your view of the world. yes 3rd place at flanders is significant but the real point i was making was that when Hincapie wins a sprint it aways seems that it's a sprint in group 2.. never a sprint in for the win in group1 .

He won field sprints in the Tour of California against fast specialist spinters. Thats good enough for me.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/feb06/california06/?id=california062/_T3U4016

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/feb06/california06/?id=california065/JD_tcastg5_Hincapie

He won the mountain top sprint for a stage win @2000 meters altitude in the TdF, think Hushovd or Boonen could do THAT?!?

He attacked like crazy on the Muur, so no he didnt wheel suck the whole time, he and Bettini controlled the chasers as good teammates should.
heres a pic of George hammering the chasers whith their tongues hanging out and he isnt even breathing hard: no wheel sucking here
scroll down
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/apr06/rvv06/index.php?id=raceday/_TM_3339

hombredesubaru said:

He won field sprints in the Tour of California against fast specialist spinters. Thats good enough for me.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/feb06/california06/?id=california062/_T3U4016

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/feb06/california06/?id=california065/JD_tcastg5_Hincapie

Bull there was a 1st Cat climb and the sprinters were over a minute back in one case and 15mins back in the other.. both stages he won against primarily climbers... bottom line he's not good sprinter when you put him up against a REAL sprinters of which Boonen is, as well as being even a better road rider than Hincapie... i'm not saying Hincapie doesn't have talent...i'm saying if he lets it come down to a sprint with Boonen or Hushovd or really any of the quicksteps he's a fool... he's a mediocre sprinter against real sprinters.. beating chris horner in a sprint is not really anything to write home about... know your strength, know your weaknesses

hombredesubaru said:

He won the mountain top sprint for a stage win @2000 meters altitude in the TdF, think Hushovd or Boonen could do THAT?!?

notice you didn't put the no wheel suching part in here because he sucked wheel for something like 160km... did not take one pull and then poked his nose into the wind in the last 300m and went around the phonak... what an a$$... then later it was revealed than Burnyeel had given him permission to do what ever he wanted... he just CHOSE to lie to his fellow escapees and say he couldn't help.. not his proudest moment..

hombredesubaru said:

He attacked like crazy on the Muur, so no he didnt wheel suck the whole time, he and Bettini controlled the chasers as good teammates should.
heres a pic of George hammering the chasers whith their tongues hanging out and he isnt even breathing hard: no wheel sucking here
scroll down
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/apr06/rvv06/index.php?id=raceday/_TM_3339

there is a little thing we like to call EFFECTIVE agression... attack as he did in the end if it was of no significance and got rid of no one that mattered... i can do an all out sprint in the middle of a road race too.. if it doesn't come of anything.. maybe i ask myself if it was such a smart move, maybe i should have just saved my energy? there is something to be said for taking a chance too though...

DV1976 said:

It was obvious that they couldn't lose him. What Hoste did made much more sense as I think that he expected some other QS rider and not Boonen to follow.

We know... The couldn't because they didn't. They didn't even try

What Hoste did was the most reasonable thing to do. It didn't work out and it probably wouldn't but he gave it a shot. As I said it wasn't meant (probably) for Boonen to follow but for Bettini or/and Pozzato. Hincapie should have reacted. He had the time to think it over and he did nothing. It's harsh to blame Hoste...On top of that I think that Hoste was in better shape than Hincapie so it's only fair that he got second.
Sorry but it seems that at this point you haven't seen the race so your opinion is biased by what you've read. Hincapie was not boxed out. Hoste and Booned stayed within 5 seconds for about 2 minutes and actually Cancellara tried to bridge the gap but couldn't. It was Hincapie's call and he did nothing and that simply tells me that Hoste had the better legs. And from Demol's point of view why risk a second place then (and possibly a win) just to satisfy Hincapie's ego?
As for Armstrong I think that if you can't win on your own then you shouldn't be a team leader (on one hand) and moreover, it's not the point whether he can win on his own or not. The point is that if your main rival does something, you react. You don't expect from others to bail you out...

In Hoste's own words .......
[font=Verdana][font=Verdana]One rider who knows the roads well is Hincapie's teammate Hoste. Born and raised in Kortrijk, Belgium, just north of Roubaix, across the France-Belgium border, Hoste was pleased with his second-place finish to Boonen last Sunday, but says he's focused on the team doing one better.[/font] [/font]

[font=Verdana][font=Verdana]"Second is nice, but only winning counts," Hoste said. "We're going to try again Sunday."[/font] [/font]

[font=Verdana][font=Verdana]And to repeat that question, how to beat Boonen?[/font] [/font]

[font=Verdana][font=Verdana]"I just hope I'm not alone with him this time," Hoste said. "I hope George, and maybe also some other guys, are there to try and lose him. Alone, it's almost impossible, I think, to beat him. Even more at Roubaix than at Flanders."
[/font][/font]

[font=Verdana][font=Verdana] It rather reflects what I have been saying ......
[/font] [/font]

wolfix said:

In Hoste's own words .......
[font=Verdana][font=Verdana]One rider who knows the roads well is Hincapie's teammate Hoste. Born and raised in Kortrijk, Belgium, just north of Roubaix, across the France-Belgium border, Hoste was pleased with his second-place finish to Boonen last Sunday, but says he's focused on the team doing one better.[/font] [/font]

[font=Verdana][font=Verdana]"Second is nice, but only winning counts," Hoste said. "We're going to try again Sunday."[/font] [/font]

[font=Verdana][font=Verdana]And to repeat that question, how to beat Boonen?[/font] [/font]

[font=Verdana][font=Verdana]"I just hope I'm not alone with him this time," Hoste said. "I hope George, and maybe also some other guys, are there to try and lose him. Alone, it's almost impossible, I think, to beat him. Even more at Roubaix than at Flanders."
[/font][/font]

[font=Verdana][font=Verdana] It rather reflects what I have been saying ......
[/font] [/font]

I think Hoste is being presumptuous and arrogant...blah blah I hope George is there. We'll see if Boonen takes off again with Hoste on his wheel. George will need to be very attentive.

Why is Hoste talking about winning? Isn't this supposed to be strictly a team effort for George?

PartisanRanger said:

Why is Hoste talking about winning? Isn't this supposed to be strictly a team effort for George?

everyone seems to have just assumed that but.. here is Hoste's whole quote... appearently the were co-leaders of the team for Ronde and for Roubaix

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/apr06/apr08news2

cyclingnews.com said:

Hoste thinks he can improve

Leif Hoste (Discovery Channel) wants to win Paris-Roubaix and improve on his second spot in last weekend's Ronde Van Vlaanderen. "Because Paris-Roubaix suits me even better," he was quoted in Het Volk . "Tom was good, strong and quicker. It's just that he is faster, that's the reality. We had grabbed each other by the neck already so hard during that long break, that neither he nor I could take off. When he took over after my attack, I had to bite my handlebars to keep on his wheel.

"It was the first time in the Ronde, that I shared team leadership with Hincapie. I have lived up to the expectations with that pressure on my shoulders. I have noticed once again that these are my races. You can say that when you finish second twice in four editions, and one year you're hindered in the Hell by a flag.

"I have never ridden Paris-Roubaix in the rain; it's the fourth time I am participating. I'm a good enough pilot, that is true, but in the rain it's not always your own fault. If it's dry, then you can afford to be in fifteenth position. If it's wet and dirty, everyone is less at ease. The order of the day is: not sitting too tense on your bike. Paris-Roubaix means blisters on the hands; I had those after the Ronde already. Pain in your wrists the day after; but the pain is inversely proportional to your ranking. The higher up you finish, the lesser the pain. Since I started training in November, I have been anticipating these two Sundays.

"Since January I have slept in my own bed for a maximum of one full week. All the tension has been building up for those two big goals. Paris-Roubaix, that is 260 km long, suffering each kilometre, but it flies by like it's nothing.

From Monday onwards I risk diving into a black hole. I even didn't want to talk about what will happen after this Sunday before the season started. I have looked forward to Paris-Roubaix as if it were my last race of the season."

And how does Leif plan to get rid of Boonen tomorrow? "That's simple," Hoste replied. "Tom will have to be not as good as me, otherwise it won't work. I love honest duels, like last Sunday. If he had punctured, they would have said forever that I had won the Ronde in which Boonen punctured. I'd rather go down fighting. The one who finishes second knows that one day he can win. But even if Tom has a lesser day, then we're not finished with Quick.Step yet."

Three riders in the P-R selection.

Highest finisher: Roger Hammond in 24th.

Disarray has a new definition.

[font=Verdana]well well well... disarray indeed.... Trek bikes breaking, Discovery riders riding at the back, following wheels and crashing and deliberating flouting with the rules (cheating) in a bid to try and win.... CSC is the new team to watch. Great ride by Cancellara the strongest rider on the day and took his chances when it mattered most. Good solid performance from Boonen who followed the rules.

[/font][font=Verdana]What is going on with Discovery ? Gustav took Ballen down because he was riding at the back trough the cobbles and then paced himself back by drafting from the following cars. Hincapie what can I say ? Bad luck ? or wasn’t his equipment checked before the race ?

[/font][font=Verdana]CSC with one man with 20km to go beat Discovery who had three !

[/font][font=Verdana]Discovery are in disarray but at least in the tour they can concentrate on 2 riders now instead of thinking Hincapie having a chance. [/font]

[font=Verdana]....and Team CSC now heads the Team standings of the ProTour. The silence on this forum is deafening. [/font]

The silence is deafening because most of the DC support is American-based and they're trying to sleep off the hangover from yesterday!

But on to the main issue : are DC in disarray?

Hoste proved himself yesterday to be the strongest DC rider as regards classics.
He finished (on the road) in second place and was then disqualified.
I think his efforts so far this season could have reaped greater reward if he had received more support from the DC.
Instead, they automatically made Hincapie leader for the Classics, even though he (GH) doesn't now appear to be the strongest DC one day rider.

Hoste's situation reminds me of Savoldelli at the Giro : DC pay lipservice to the riders achivement without giving the rider any tangible support in his endeavours.

If I was Hoste, I would get the hell out of DC. They're only interested in backing Hincapie as far as I can see for the one day races.

[font=Verdana]Agreed and good points made. Hoste is the strongest and needs support and again this year that may do the same with il falco by giving way to much support to TommyD..... its seems Discovery are run by their sponsors and not on who is the best man to win. Even with Bruyneel in the car the tactics were still poor. I think Hoste will already be talking with other teams and I think he might end up going to Davitamon-Lotto as they will need a replacement for PVG.

Tour of the Basque Country: More of the same. Beltran, Avervado all failed. Discovery are in disarray.[/font][font=Verdana][/font]

limerickman said:

The silence is deafening because most of the DC support is American-based and they're trying to sleep off the hangover from yesterday!

But on to the main issue : are DC in disarray?

Hoste proved himself yesterday to be the strongest DC rider as regards classics.
He finished (on the road) in second place and was then disqualified.
I think his efforts so far this season could have reaped greater reward if he had received more support from the DC.
Instead, they automatically made Hincapie leader for the Classics, even though he (GH) doesn't now appear to be the strongest DC one day rider.

Hoste's situation reminds me of Savoldelli at the Giro : DC pay lipservice to the riders achivement without giving the rider any tangible support in his endeavours.

If I was Hoste, I would get the hell out of DC. They're only interested in backing Hincapie as far as I can see for the one day races.

limerickman said:

The silence is deafening because most of the DC support is American-based and they're trying to sleep off the hangover from yesterday!

But on to the main issue : are DC in disarray?

Hoste proved himself yesterday to be the strongest DC rider as regards classics.
He finished (on the road) in second place and was then disqualified.
I think his efforts so far this season could have reaped greater reward if he had received more support from the DC.
Instead, they automatically made Hincapie leader for the Classics, even though he (GH) doesn't now appear to be the strongest DC one day rider.

Hoste's situation reminds me of Savoldelli at the Giro : DC pay lipservice to the riders achivement without giving the rider any tangible support in his endeavours.

If I was Hoste, I would get the hell out of DC. They're only interested in backing Hincapie as far as I can see for the one day races.

Boonen made the comment he felt Hincapie was the strongest one on the road yesterday besides the Swiss winner.
How could he recieve more support???? Hincapie blocked his ass for Hoste in Flanders.... And Demol told Hoste to continue the attack that even Boonen thought was boneheaded. He had support from Hincapie in that race and from the team car..... Still no victory.
Yesterday, Hoste had 2 riders from his team in the breakaway against one from every other team and still could not get a victory. How much more support could he get?
And at the Giro last year Savoldelli knew his job was to be in at Lances side in July. That was the reason he was hired. Discovery may not have been a well rounded team the past 7 years but what they did in the tour was historically the best in the history of the TDF.... oh yeah .... They also won the Giro.

whiteboytrash said:

[font=Verdana]....and Team CSC now heads the Team standings of the ProTour. The silence on this forum is deafening. [/font]

Wasn't it you that posted that everyone knowsthat being the Team leader in the ProTour standings is a sign of mediocrity??

limerickman said:

The silence is deafening because most of the DC support is American-based and they're trying to sleep off the hangover from yesterday!

But on to the main issue : are DC in disarray?

Hoste proved himself yesterday to be the strongest DC rider as regards classics.
He finished (on the road) in second place and was then disqualified.
I think his efforts so far this season could have reaped greater reward if he had received more support from the DC.
Instead, they automatically made Hincapie leader for the Classics, even though he (GH) doesn't now appear to be the strongest DC one day rider.

Hoste's situation reminds me of Savoldelli at the Giro : DC pay lipservice to the riders achivement without giving the rider any tangible support in his endeavours.

If I was Hoste, I would get the hell out of DC. They're only interested in backing Hincapie as far as I can see for the one day races.

You're just stirring the pot. No one got to see what Hincaoie was gonna do yesterday.
He absolutelu would have stayed with Cancellara. I say that because when Canc took off in the Arenberg, he went right over the top of Boonen and Geoirge was glued to Toms wheel. Geroge watched then saw saw Boonen couldnt do it and then slid right back to Canc with Boonen grimacing. That was the sign of the race right there. Canc was on a great day and Geroge was his match. Canc wouldnt have shed three Disco riders but would have as he did drop Flecha Boonen et all and Georgewould have been there to outsprint him.
Get over it.

Now that George Hincapie will have some free time on his hands while he heals, do you think he will post his opinion on all this ?????

Next thread....." Hincapies doctor in disarray" when he starts the shoulder operation and the nurse jumps in with her skills. Then with Hincapies luck the doctors stethoscope will break off.

And should hombredesubaru and whiteboytrash send seperate Get Well cards or go in on just one card and some flowers?

wolfix said:

Boonen made the comment he felt Hincapie was the strongest one on the road yesterday besides the Swiss winner.
How could he recieve more support???? Hincapie blocked his ass for Hoste in Flanders.... And Demol told Hoste to continue the attack that even Boonen thought was boneheaded. He had support from Hincapie in that race and from the team car..... Still no victory.
Yesterday, Hoste had 2 riders from his team in the breakaway against one from every other team and still could not get a victory. How much more support could he get?
And at the Giro last year Savoldelli knew his job was to be in at Lances side in July. That was the reason he was hired. Discovery may not have been a well rounded team the past 7 years but what they did in the tour was historically the best in the history of the TDF.... oh yeah .... They also won the Giro.

You musn't have seen a different RVV to me : Hoste was clearly the strong than Hincapie.
Following RVV - you have people carping about DC's tactics at RVV.
Hoste was correct to go at RVV - Hincapie wouldn't (or more likely, couldn't).

In yesterday's P-R : Hincapie by all accounts used a special bike in order for him to win.
And what happened - his bike disintegrated.
What team in it's right mind would test a protype given P-R's surface?
We can speculate that Hincapie might have done this or that if he had remained on his bike : the fact is that he didn't remain on his bike.
Bad luck ? Maybe.
Bad planning ? Certainly.

Hoste for me has been the best DC rider so far this season.

I agree Savoldelli won the Giro - despite the best efforts of DC not to support him.
I think it was Diablo Scott who pointed out here at the time that the DC website didn't even have the good manners to correctly spell Savoldelli's name properly.

This thread is getting pretty silly now.... Its less of a real discussion about Discovery having problems and more of a nitpicking of small issues just to get at the American members of this board who can't see past their countries only ProTour team and into the wealth of other great riders out there. Perhaps we should start a new thread: whats the point in being completely obsessive about on single team to the exclusion of all others just because it is from your country? That would sum up more what people are getting at here.

I selected Hincapie on my Cobblestone Fantasy Team - with the objective of P-R in mind.