Optical illusions, continued ...

Sandy said:

http://www.merida.com/s0_global/main_control.php?group0=tech&group1=flexstay

Now what exactly could someone offer in commentary ?

It probably requires plenty of snake oil to prevent squeaks! ;-)

If those round stays are flexing as much as they claim, that would be
one SCARY bike to ride, IMHO. I can't imagine mounting V-brakes on a
seat stay that could flex enough to move the dropout (axle) "several
mm's". It'd be like riding a bucking broco.

It might be fun to go to a retailer and ask 'em if you could see what
it feels like to flex the dropouts up 3mm though. They might get
suspicious when you show up with a hydraulic press to do it though.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

What's the big deal? Ibis, Merlin, and many others have all used
flexing chainstays for suspension in the past.

I thought it was going to be *good* optical illusion, like this one:
http://forum.bikemag.com/photopost/data/504/2990Optical_illusion.JPG

-Mike

Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
Mark Hickey <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Sandy said:

http://www.merida.com/s0_global/main_control.php?group0=tech&group1=flexstay

Now what exactly could someone offer in commentary ?

It probably requires plenty of snake oil to prevent squeaks! ;-)

If those round stays are flexing as much as they claim, that would be
one SCARY bike to ride, IMHO. I can't imagine mounting V-brakes on a
seat stay that could flex enough to move the dropout (axle) "several
mm's". It'd be like riding a bucking broco.

Given your experience with manufacturers, I am surprised you have never
observed flex testing of frames and forks. If you can get a chance,
unlikely as it may be, LOOK has a fork testing apparatus. It holds the
pivot at the crown, and the legs are bent backwards up to a centimeter, for
hundreds of thousands of cycles. Décathlon tours its stores with the frame
flex machine, which twists, akternately, the head tube and the rear
triangle, for as much as a centimeter (so I recall), for hundreds of
thousands of cycles.

Quoted message said:

It might be fun to go to a retailer and ask 'em if you could see what
it feels like to flex the dropouts up 3mm though. They might get
suspicious when you show up with a hydraulic press to do it though.

And that's exactly the kind of test bed they use.

Two manufacturers of top pro equipment. It's a shame they don't know what
they're doing as well as you do. Maybe you could write to them and advise
....
--
Sandy

The above is guaranteed 100% free of sarcasm,
denigration, snotty remarks, indifference, platitudes, fuming demands that
"you do the math", conceited visions of a better world on wheels according
to [insert NAME here].

Sandy said:

http://www.merida.com/s0_global/main_control.php?group0=tech&group1=flexstay

Now what exactly could someone offer in commentary ?
--

How about this: do you try to be such an arrogant SOB, or does it just
come naturally?

Quoted message said:

Sandy

The above is guaranteed 100% free of sarcasm,
denigration, snotty remarks, indifference, platitudes, fuming demands that
"you do the math", conceited visions of a better world on wheels according
to [insert NAME here].

Ya sure you betcha

"Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.merida.com/s0_global/main_control.php?group0=tech&group1=flexstay

Now what exactly could someone offer in commentary ?
--

I offer this: "Merida" is the most unfortunate bike name since "Scattante."

Sandy Broque writes:

http://www.merida.com/s0_global/main_control.php?group0=tech&group1=flexstay

Quoted message said:

Now what exactly could someone offer in commentary ?

Quoted message said:

The above is guaranteed 100% free of sarcasm, denigration, snotty
remarks, indifference, platitudes, fuming demands that "you do the
math", conceited visions of a better world on wheels according to
[insert NAME here].

Rather than post bland disclaimers about oddly constructed sentences,
try asking a straight forward question without gratuitous adjectives.

The web page was not reasonably edited for English "flat-sping" or for
technical accuracy. The "rear triangle" of the bicycle frame shown is
like those of most conventional frames in that it is a tetrahedron,
the most rigid structural space frame imaginable, supporting only
tension and compression. For this reason these tubes can be as
slender as they are in classic steel frames. The forces haven't
changed, only the frame materials have.

The flexing forces indicated in the web page are imaginary as are the
text contentions.

Jobst Brandt

Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
[email hidden] <[email hidden]> a
réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Sandy Broque writes:

http://www.merida.com/s0_global/main_control.php?group0=tech&group1=flexstay

Quoted message said:

Now what exactly could someone offer in commentary ?

Quoted message said:

The above is guaranteed 100% free of sarcasm, denigration, snotty
remarks, indifference, platitudes, fuming demands that "you do the
math", conceited visions of a better world on wheels according to
[insert NAME here].

Rather than post bland disclaimers about oddly constructed sentences,
try asking a straight forward question without gratuitous adjectives.

The web page was not reasonably edited for English "flat-sping" or for
technical accuracy. The "rear triangle" of the bicycle frame shown is
like those of most conventional frames in that it is a tetrahedron,
the most rigid structural space frame imaginable, supporting only
tension and compression. For this reason these tubes can be as
slender as they are in classic steel frames. The forces haven't
changed, only the frame materials have.

The flexing forces indicated in the web page are imaginary as are the
text contentions.

You cut my name and forgot to put in yours. Both are forgiven. There was
no disclaimer - you must still have difficulty reading. Also forgiven.

And you don't know the answer, anyway. You haven't given it any thought.
They have. But don't let that disturb your view of the world as it used to
be and won't ever be again. Why not ask Merida what they mean - perhaps
they would answer your less than arrogant questions.
--
Les faits relatés ici ne sont que pure fiction, et ne sauraient être
utilisés ou rapprochés d'une situation réelle existant ou ayant
existée

Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
[email hidden] <[email hidden]> a
réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Sandy Broque writes:

http://www.merida.com/s0_global/main_control.php?group0=tech&group1=flexstay

Quoted message said:

Now what exactly could someone offer in commentary ?

Quoted message said:

The above is guaranteed 100% free of sarcasm, denigration, snotty
remarks, indifference, platitudes, fuming demands that "you do the
math", conceited visions of a better world on wheels according to
[insert NAME here].

Rather than post bland disclaimers about oddly constructed sentences,
try asking a straight forward question without gratuitous adjectives.

The web page was not reasonably edited for English "flat-sping" or for
technical accuracy. The "rear triangle" of the bicycle frame shown is
like those of most conventional frames in that it is a tetrahedron,
the most rigid structural space frame imaginable, supporting only
tension and compression. For this reason these tubes can be as
slender as they are in classic steel frames. The forces haven't
changed, only the frame materials have.

The flexing forces indicated in the web page are imaginary as are the
text contentions.

You cut my name and forgot to put in yours. Both are forgiven. There was
no disclaimer - you must still have difficulty reading. Also forgiven.

And you don't know the answer, anyway. You haven't given it any thought.
They have. But don't let that disturb your view of the world as it used to
be and won't ever be again. Why not ask Merida what they mean - perhaps
they would answer your less than arrogant questions.
--
Les faits relatés ici ne sont que pure fiction, et ne sauraient être
utilisés ou rapprochés d'une situation réelle existant ou ayant
existée

In article <[email hidden]>,

Mike Reed said:

What's the big deal? Ibis, Merlin, and many others have all used
flexing chainstays for suspension in the past.

I thought it was going to be *good* optical illusion, like this one:
http://forum.bikemag.com/photopost/data/504/2990Optical_illusion.JPG

I still don't see the boat.

Luke

Quoted message said:

Sandy Broque writes:

http://www.merida.com/s0_global/main_control.php?group0=tech&group1=flexstay

Quoted message said:

Now what exactly could someone offer in commentary ?

Quoted message said:

The above is guaranteed 100% free of sarcasm, denigration, snotty
remarks, indifference, platitudes, fuming demands that "you do the
math", conceited visions of a better world on wheels according to
[insert NAME here].

Rather than post bland disclaimers about oddly constructed sentences,
try asking a straight forward question without gratuitous adjectives.

The web page was not reasonably edited for English "flat-sping" or for
technical accuracy. The "rear triangle" of the bicycle frame shown is
like those of most conventional frames in that it is a tetrahedron,
the most rigid structural space frame imaginable, supporting only
tension and compression. For this reason these tubes can be as
slender as they are in classic steel frames. The forces haven't
changed, only the frame materials have.

The flexing forces indicated in the web page are imaginary as are the
text contentions.

Looking at the photo, it appears that they may have joined the
chainstays to the dropouts with a pivot joint. I suppose they may be
expecting that the dropout will thereby be able to couple some force
into the seat stay by rotation at the joint. To me, if this has any
actual effect at all, it is a bug, not a feature.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

i am always confused by the relationship of pnuematic tire rubber
suspensions coupled to spoke/rim suspension devices followed by frame
manufacturers claims - but i guess this is inexperience with a wide
range of frame types

Sandy the notoriously arrogant censored said:

perhaps
they would answer your less than arrogant questions.

I love the smell of irony in the morning!

Luke said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Mike Reed said:

What's the big deal? Ibis, Merlin, and many others have all used
flexing chainstays for suspension in the past.

I thought it was going to be *good* optical illusion, like this one:
http://forum.bikemag.com/photopost/data/504/2990Optical_illusion.JPG

I still don't see the boat.

Don't be an ass! ;-)

Quoted message said:

i am always confused by the relationship of pnuematic tire rubber
suspensions coupled to spoke/rim suspension devices followed by frame
manufacturers claims - but i guess this is inexperience with a wide
range of frame types

You are not confused. You are seeing the reality that is there.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Not to mention that frame with a tensioned cable for a downtube :>😉

In article <[email hidden]>,

Werehatrack said:

Quoted message said:

Sandy Broque writes:

http://www.merida.com/s0_global/main_control.php?group0=tech&group1=flexstay

Quoted message said:

Now what exactly could someone offer in commentary ?

Quoted message said:

The above is guaranteed 100% free of sarcasm, denigration, snotty
remarks, indifference, platitudes, fuming demands that "you do the
math", conceited visions of a better world on wheels according to
[insert NAME here].

Rather than post bland disclaimers about oddly constructed sentences,
try asking a straight forward question without gratuitous adjectives.

The web page was not reasonably edited for English "flat-sping" or for
technical accuracy. The "rear triangle" of the bicycle frame shown is
like those of most conventional frames in that it is a tetrahedron,
the most rigid structural space frame imaginable, supporting only
tension and compression. For this reason these tubes can be as
slender as they are in classic steel frames. The forces haven't
changed, only the frame materials have.

The flexing forces indicated in the web page are imaginary as are the
text contentions.

Looking at the photo, it appears that they may have joined the
chainstays to the dropouts with a pivot joint. I suppose they may be
expecting that the dropout will thereby be able to couple some force
into the seat stay by rotation at the joint. To me, if this has any
actual effect at all, it is a bug, not a feature.

Since you can pin _all_ the joints in a tetrahedron
without changing the essential aspects of the structure:
stresses applied at the joints act on the struts only in
compression & tension.

--
Michael Press

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

i am always confused by the relationship of pnuematic tire rubber
suspensions coupled to spoke/rim suspension devices followed by frame
manufacturers claims - but i guess this is inexperience with a wide
range of frame types

Keep believing, and you will see.

--
Michael Press

Sandy said:

Mark Hickey <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.merida.com/s0_global/main_control.php?group0=tech&group1=flexstay

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It probably requires plenty of snake oil to prevent squeaks! ;-)

If those round stays are flexing as much as they claim, that would be
one SCARY bike to ride, IMHO. I can't imagine mounting V-brakes on a
seat stay that could flex enough to move the dropout (axle) "several
mm's". It'd be like riding a bucking broco.

Given your experience with manufacturers, I am surprised you have never
observed flex testing of frames and forks.

I have seen them. I've just never seen anyone flex a "solid" rear
triangle up and down a few mm's (well, more than ONCE, that is). ;-)

My point is that the claims that are made for that frame seem to be
dubious, unless they're really NOT round stays, but flat metal strips
surrounded by flexible tubes.

Quoted message said:

If you can get a chance,
unlikely as it may be, LOOK has a fork testing apparatus. It holds the
pivot at the crown, and the legs are bent backwards up to a centimeter, for
hundreds of thousands of cycles. Décathlon tours its stores with the frame
flex machine, which twists, akternately, the head tube and the rear
triangle, for as much as a centimeter (so I recall), for hundreds of
thousands of cycles.

Twisting is one thing. I can twist my frame in a hard uphill sprint.
That's been discussed here to death, and there are plenty of sprint
photos to back up the fact that this happens on real bikes ridden by
real riders.

But there's virtually nothing short of tossing it under a truck that's
going to find 3mm of "vertical travel" in the rear end. Try it on
your own frame. Take a static meaurement and then load 400 (or heck,
800) pounds on the saddle and measure again (seat tube top to
dropout). If you measure a 3mm+ delta, you've either got a suspension
frame or a broken frame.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It might be fun to go to a retailer and ask 'em if you could see what
it feels like to flex the dropouts up 3mm though. They might get
suspicious when you show up with a hydraulic press to do it though.

And that's exactly the kind of test bed they use.

Two manufacturers of top pro equipment. It's a shame they don't know what
they're doing as well as you do. Maybe you could write to them and advise
...

You're missing the point - I'm not sure if it's on purpose, or if you
just don't understand why a test that requires a hydraulic press to
deform a frame just MIGHTnot have a whole lot of connection with the
"real world ride performance".

Or not - when you consider some of the silly things that DO sell,
there's gotta be a lot of people who buy into that kind of thing.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Werehatrack said:

Looking at the photo, it appears that they may have joined the
chainstays to the dropouts with a pivot joint. I suppose they may be
expecting that the dropout will thereby be able to couple some force
into the seat stay by rotation at the joint. To me, if this has any
actual effect at all, it is a bug, not a feature.

I didn't see any evidence of a pivot of any kind, but it seems like it
would be a truly awful idea. There would be virtually no way to
ensure that the wheel stayed perpendicular to the bike's centerline.
Stand and sprint and you'll rocket backward through the pack as your
brakes grab lots'o'wheel.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame