FQS reminder

In article <[email hidden]>, Donal Fagan

Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com said:

Larry has again resurrected his belief that swimmers that don't exhibit FQS are some sort of
refutation to Total Immersion. These are excerpts from three old posts by Terry Laughlin:

Donal, common.

FQS is one component of "TI." If the only thing I wrote about was FQS, then maybe you'd have a
point. You will note in my point by point discussion of TI, I did not start with "FQS," I started
with head position. And I already stated that point #2 was going to be stroke symmetry. Somewhere
down the road, we will, indeed, get to FQS.

Most of my recent writing about FQS just has to do with my little debate with you about whether or
not Grant Hackett swims with FQS or RQS (the answer is both; FQS with left hand pull; RQS with right
hand pull).

The only other times I think I "resurrected it" recently was, I think, in response to you saying
that Maglisho advocated it and just as a final point in describing the stroke of one of my
daughters.

Since it is a component of "TI" ("negotiable" or not), it is, however, relevant to the overall
consideration of what has by now ascended to a position of wide emulation in the world of swimming
(in my view, to the disadvantage of the sport).

Larry Weisenthal

Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

(Larry Weisenthal) said:

And I already stated that point #2 was going to be stroke symmetry.

And again, where in TI core beliefs is stroke symmetry? The straw man section?

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

Quoted message said:

it is, however, relevant to the overall consideration of what has by now ascended to a position of
wide emulation in the world of swimming (in my view, to the disadvantage of the sport).

And exactly where is the evidence of that? In the thousands and thousands of people who are MUCH
happier about swimming because we've helped them understand it in simple ways and because we've
showed them the value of mindful, purposeful, intelligent practice of swimming as an art form,
instead of simply a test of your tolerance for tedium?

And if you insist on evaluating it in the narrow purview of competitive swimming, for some reason
ALL of the coaches who are using TI in their programs in an informed way are completely happy with
the results. You might ask Jerry Foley, head coach of Bucknell, whose men and women swept the titles
in the Patriot League last weekend, with record scoring totals. The first team in the history of the
league to win both titles. Jerry called me 10 minutes ago to say, not only did they swim incredibly
well, but they really ENJOYED the training and how they felt in the water, swimming the TI way. He
also told me that he used the TI approach last summer with his daughter's summer league team and "it
seemed like TI gave us an unfair advantage over the other teams."

Anyone care to disagree, maybe you can ask Jerry to say I'm lying. His email is [email hidden]

Unlike Larry, he can't just talk and write. He actually has to coach live swimmers to perform. Terry

(Totalswimm) said:

You might ask Jerry Foley, head coach of Bucknell, whose men and women swept the titles in the
Patriot League last weekend, with record scoring totals. The first team in the history of the
league to win both titles.

bucknellbison.ocsn.com022203aaa.htmlOpen ↗

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

(Larry Weisenthal) said:

Donal, you are trying to play semantic games with me. You have read all the TI literature, attended
a workshop, etc.

Yes, and as I have told you before, I came out of that workshop less symmetrical than when I went
in. As I have told you before, I went in trying to swim very symmetrically, breathing both sides
per Jane Katz. And as I have told you before, I came out breathing to one side, not worrying so
much about symmetry as about balance and streamlining.

Quoted message said:

But, just so that I don't miss any, can either you or Terry provide a list of TI "core beliefs." I
shall consider all.

From an article Terry said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At each of our workshops, we give a lecture, using video to illustrate, in which we talk about
the two paths to improved stroke efficiency. These concepts are then applied through the
drills we teach.

One path is minimizing drag, and we explain that you minimize drag by mastering three "Eliminating
Skills." These skills are:

1. Swimming downhill, i.e. mastering balance.

2. Swimming taller: We teach them to use the hand to fully extend the body line before they use it
to anchor.

3. Pierce the water, i.e. consciously slip your body through the smallest possible hole.

In the second half of this lecture, we describe the other half of the equation : how to maximize
propulsion by mastering three "Creating Skills." These skills are:

4. Use your core-body as your engine.

5. Use your hands to "hold onto your place in the water."

6. Swim faster with your body, not with your arms and legs.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

HTH

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

(Larry Weisenthal) said:

I've said that symmetry doesn't refer to breathing but to stroking.

And I've pointed out that without the problem of breathing, there would no more asymmetry in
swimming than in running or cycling.

Quoted message said:

The TI emphasis on balance certainly does include symmetrical (or, to put it another way) identical
motions, R vs L.

Name one coach's manual that doesn't show identical motions left and right. Colwin, Katz, Maglischo,
Whitten? Using both arms for propulsion is a fairly obvious idea.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

Donal Fagan said:

(Larry Weisenthal) said:

I've said that symmetry doesn't refer to breathing but to stroking.

And I've pointed out that without the problem of breathing, there would no more asymmetry in
swimming than in running or cycling.

I think there is, though, due to handedness and scoliosis (sp?)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The TI emphasis on balance certainly does include symmetrical (or, to put it another way)
identical motions, R vs L.

Name one coach's manual that doesn't show identical motions left and right. Colwin, Katz,
Maglischo, Whitten? Using both arms for propulsion is a fairly obvious idea.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

Martin W. Smith said:

Donal Fagan wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And I've pointed out that without the problem of breathing, there would no more asymmetry in
swimming than in running or cycling.

Quoted message said:

I think there is, though, due to handedness and scoliosis (sp?)

Oh, there certainly is slight asymmetry in cycling and running among healthy people. But you have to
look very hard to notice it. There's also a definite asymmetry in most faces, but you don't often
say, "Hey, Janet's left eye is higher than her right one."

Imagine, though, if runners and cyclists couldn't breathe straight ahead. Try running and turning
your head and chest to inhale to the side. That will be the kind of asymmetry you find in swimming.
Tell me if it makes you any faster.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

Donal Fagan said:

Martin W. Smith said:

Donal Fagan wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

And I've pointed out that without the problem of breathing, there would no more asymmetry in
swimming than in running or cycling.

Quoted message said:

I think there is, though, due to handedness and scoliosis (sp?)

Oh, there certainly is slight asymmetry in cycling and running among healthy people.

I mean that asymmetry due to handedness and/or scoliosis is much more important in swimming due to
there being no fixed point fulcrum for the swimmer to push/pull against. In both running and
cycling, there are fixed points, so minor asymmetries in handedness and scoliosis are of trivial
importance.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

Martin W. Smith said:

I mean that asymmetry due to handedness and/or scoliosis is much more important in swimming due to
there being no fixed point fulcrum for the swimmer to push/pull against.

There are in Toussaint's pool. :-)

Quoted message said:

In both running and cycling, there are fixed points,

What fixed points? When running, you can step wherever you want. If you want to lengthen your stride
on one side, there is nothing stopping you.

In cycling, usually both pedals are the same distance from the axle, but you can push harder with
one leg than the other if you want. You could stand while pushing on one leg and sit while pushing
the other. That might make you a cycling loper. It might also prevent you from being a father. :-(

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

Donal Fagan said:

Martin W. Smith said:

I mean that asymmetry due to handedness and/or scoliosis is much more important in swimming due
to there being no fixed point fulcrum for the swimmer to push/pull against.

There are in Toussaint's pool. :-)

Quoted message said:

In both running and cycling, there are fixed points,

What fixed points? When running, you can step wherever you want. If you want to lengthen your
stride on one side, there is nothing stopping you.

But you are always pushing against a fixed fulcrum. The ground is a fixed point. You push your whole
weaight against it.

Quoted message said:

In cycling, usually both pedals are the same distance from the axle, but you can push harder with
one leg than the other if you want.

But the pedals are fixed points with respect to the feet; the handlegrips are fixed points with
respect to the hands, and the seat is a fixed point with respect to the butt. You can push as hard
as you want against them.

Quoted message said:

You could stand while pushing on one leg and sit while pushing the other. That might make you a
cycling loper. It might also prevent you from being a father. :-(

But in swimming, there is nothing fixed to push against. Handedness means one hand can pull harder
than the other. There is nothing to prevent it. Scoliosis means the butt can swing wider to one side
than the other. there is nothing to prevent it. Both are examples of asymmetry.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

Quoted message said:

In cycling, usually both pedals are the same distance from the axle, but you can push harder with
one leg than the other if you want. You could stand while pushing on one leg and sit while pushing
the other.

I've recently switched over to clipless pedals on the bike, and I have noticed a tendency for my
right leg to be doing a bit more of the work than the left side. Easy to lope on the bike when
you're clipped in and getting power from the up as well as the down of the pedal stroke.

I figure it works out even since I'm a three beat kicker (BOOM-gurgle-gurgle) for freestyle with the
left leg doing more of the work. In a strange sort of fashion, end up having the legs equally fresh
(tired?) for the run that way.

Martin W. Smith said:

But in swimming, there is nothing fixed to push against.

Granted, but how does that affect symmetry? If I had something to push against on only one side,
that would affect symmetry, but if I have the same situation on both sides, that is symmetrical.

Quoted message said:

Handedness means one hand can pull harder than the other.

Handedness means one hand can pull *better* than the other. Due to an injury, my left hand is
stronger than my right, but I'm still better at everything with the right hand. And from what I've
read, people are not only dominant in one hand, they are also dominant in one leg/foot.

Quoted message said:

There is nothing to prevent it.

What prevents you from pushing off harder on one side in running or cycling?

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

Donal Fagan said:

Martin W. Smith said:

But in swimming, there is nothing fixed to push against.

Granted, but how does that affect symmetry?

It is the other way around. antisymmetry (ie, handedness and scoliosis) affects the final result
because there is nothing to hold it in check.

Quoted message said:

Handedness means one hand can pull *better* than the other. Due to an injury, my left hand is
stronger than my right, but I'm still better at everything with the right hand. And from what I've
read, people are not only dominant in one hand, they are also dominant in one leg/foot.

...which all means the net result will be affected by these asymmetries. Asymmetry is important
in swimming.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

My two cents -

First, since some will definitely point this out as a bias, let me say up front I have a
relationship with Total Immersion. I've written the very occasional article for Terry (one every
other year or so on average?) and he sells my fistgloves. Am I "known" as a TI coach? No. Frankly,
I'm barely even "known" at all since I coach in a pretty remote area (just south of the Arctic
Circle, we are literally at the end of the road). However, swimmers are swimmers, and if there's a
pool in the neighborhood, "they will come". I've coached for 25 years now, developing my own style
and my own negotiable and non-negotiable tenets. Terry and I agree on some things and not on others.
I don't coach from a book or a web site. I admit I've been influenced by everything from other
coaches to what I read in the paper (or in this group) to what my swimmers tell me they're feeling.
I tend to coach the swimmers who come to practice every day, disregarding theory and going with what
I define as "reality", i.e., what I see with my own eyes and feel with my own heart. I've coached
masters on and off the entire time. I've coached age group swimmers the entire time. I've been a
head high school coach for 16 of those years. I was an NCAA DII head coach for 5 of those years. I
have a college degree. So, enough about me.

Here are some general comments based on things I've learned so far - helping swimmers enjoy the
sport better be part of every coach's understanding of his or her job or that coach will drive more
swimmers away from the pool than he ever keeps. Swimming up and down that black line CAN be
extremely tedious. In fact, I'll go so far as to say - and this is just a guess - most swimmers can
barely keep that tedium in check, regardless of their age and stage. Most, not all. Some swimmers
seem to be born to enjoy the water. The majority, however, might have just as much fun throwing a
ball at a hoop so if you want to keep the best athletes in town on your team, you better make it
fun for them.

I've coached some of the fastest age group swimmers in the country. If you're a nationally ranked
swimmer as an 11/12 year old, or 13/14 year old, you probably possess tremendous natural physical
talent. Any coach who claims they're responsible for a 12 year old's success as a TOP 16 swimmer
is deluding him or herself. If you're still coaching that swimmer at 18 and they're still great,
take a bow.

Swimmers are people and they need to be related to as human beings with thoughts and emotions, not
just arms and legs. I've spent 40 years thinking about how to swim faster than the other guy. I've
always been more successful myself when I was relaxed, regardless of the amount and kind of
"training" I've had. That's one of my non-negotiable tenets and it holds true for me personally and
for the swimmers I coach. Relax. How many times do we see that discussed on rss? I advocate taking
10 deep breaths before each practice. I suppose that's not controversial enough to keep the
attention of most posters.

I also like to see an early high elbow in my freestylers; I like to see my breaststrokers keep their
chins slightly tucked and lean into their stroke; I like to see my flyers stay as close to the
surface of the water as possible; I like to see my backstrokers keep their heads steady. If my
swimmers don't enjoy the experience of swimming for 2
1/2 hours every afternoon, they won't make any of those tenets a habit. Sure they "struggle" with
all of this stuff because they're land-based animals trying their best to adapt to an aquatic
environment. If I can help them relax, they struggle less.

And let me say one final thing about helping swimmers enjoy the experience of moving through a
substance 800 times denser than air - please, Larry, don't bash Bill Boomer. Have you met him? Have
you talked with him? Do you have any idea what he's done as a coach and what he's doing for swimmers
now? He really understands what it means to be born a land-based animal who has the strange idea
that moving through the water faster than the other guy (or girl) is somehow important. He knows
more about swimming than just telling us how to better teach the alignment of body segments and find
our balance. Fifty years from now I suspect no one will remember you or me as having contributed a
great deal to the sport of swimming. I have no doubt Bill will be remembered.

I believe if you can see a swimmer's natural tendencies clearly enough, and you as a coach have a
clear enough understanding of basic hydrodynamics and biomechanics, you can make suggestions to that
swimmer which will help him or her swim better, i.e., more effeciently, thus swim faster. A good
coach probably doesn't MAKE anyone swim a particular way, much less the same way. I think good
coaches teach general patterns (like my suggestion that backstrokers keep their heads steady) and
make allowances for a swimmer's natural inclinations. Do I think loping defies the laws of physics?
No. Do I teach it as one of my general patterns? Not yet. If and when Larry can convince me it makes
sense to TEACH it, I will probably add it to my list of generally good patterns of movement to
promote. If I have a swimmer who seems to only have success when they swim that way, I'll probably
stop harping on them to swim more smoothly. That hasn't happened yet. I don't know why I don't have
more lopers in my programs. Perhaps because I've coached a lot of these swimmers since they were 10
(and some I'm still coaching now that they're 35 and 40 years old) and have suggested they swim
smoothly and symmetrically all their lives. Are they perfectly smooth and perfectly symmetrical? No.
They're human so they have a "master" eye, and they tend to be either right handed or left handed,
they have old injuries that make them a little stiffer on one side than the other, etc. However, as
humans, we tend to be pretty much bilaterally symmetric so I do my best to capitalize on that fact.

Just my two cents.

Regards,

Scott

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I've recently switched over to clipless pedals on the bike, and I have noticed a tendency for my
right leg to be doing a bit more of the work than the left side.

I noticed a big change when I switched to clips way back in the 20th century, but step-in clips
don't seem that different to me.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

It is the other way around. antisymmetry (ie, handedness and scoliosis) affects the final result
because there is nothing to hold it in check.

There is nothing "to hold it in check" in running or cycling, either.

Quoted message said:

...which all means the net result will be affected by these asymmetries.

Yes, lateral dominance affects running & cycling to a slight extent, tennis, javelin, etc. quite a
bit more because of the equipment, and swimming crawl more because of the breathing.

Quoted message said:

Asymmetry is important in swimming.

Not in Fly, Breast or Back, and not with crawl swimmers that breathe bilaterally.

Now you've said the same thing about four ways and I've answered you. If you keep saying the same
thing over and over, I will simply put you in my killfile.

Donal Fagan said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

It is the other way around. antisymmetry (ie, handedness and scoliosis) affects the final result
because there is nothing to hold it in check.

There is nothing "to hold it in check" in running or cycling, either.

Yes there is. If I have a scoliosis problem, it might well throw my but out to one side or the other
when I pull with one arm or the other, because there is no fulcrum to hold myself steady with. When
I am running, for example, my foot hits the ground and all my weight is on that foot. I can use that
fixed point as a fulcrum to hold my body in line.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

...which all means the net result will be affected by these asymmetries.

Yes, lateral dominance affects running & cycling to a slight extent, tennis, javelin, etc. quite a
bit more because of the equipment, and swimming crawl more because of the breathing.

No, lateral dominance affects swimming because you use your arms a lot in swimming. Arms aren't as
important in running and cycling, except for balance and gripping, but lateral dominance is of no
importance there.

Suppose I break my right arm and it is in a cast for 6 weeks. When the cast comes off, you're saying
the horrendous asymmetry won't affect my swimming.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Asymmetry is important in swimming.

Not in Fly, Breast or Back, and not with crawl swimmers that breathe bilaterally.

That's silly. In fly, for example, if my left arm is significantly stronger than my right arm, if I
don't account for that, I will circle to my right.

Quoted message said:

Now you've said the same thing about four ways and I've answered you. If you keep saying the same
thing over and over, I will simply put you in my killfile.

You still don't understand what I'm talking about. You have answered *something* four times, but you
haven't answered any point I've raised.

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

"Martin W. Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Donal Fagan said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Yes there is. If I have a scoliosis problem,

If you have a scoliosis problem, I really don't think it applies to the average swimmers
technique.

The issue is: Does asymmetry affect swimming more than it affects running and cycling. I'm
claiming the answer is yes, because there is no fixed point fulcrum in swimming which can be used
to hold the body in line, like there is in both running and cycling

what are you guys talking about? Scoliosis?

It's not that complicated.

IT'S THE BREATHING!!!

While running, or cycling, or rowing, or doing gymnatics, or playing football ... do you ever see
athletes limit their breathing to 20 percent or less of the duty cycle of their activity? And be
forced to turn their head substantially to the side and up to get the breath, otherwise they would
drown and die!

And how to deal with the breathing in freestyle is a central them of swimming technique. The Bill
Boomer/TI crowd say we should all swim symmetrically, spending countless hours drilling in a pool to
try and work the breath in as seamlessly as possible with the rest of the stroke.

In the other "camp", the need to breath plays midwife to the lopers technique. Lopers develop a
natural rhymthm whose genesis is having to breath to one side. Rather than fight the natural
tendency of the breathing to pull their bodies out of alignment, they accent it. They develop that
"flop-flop ... flop-flop" rhthym which has been talked about here. They create a punctuated
equilibrium centered around their breathing side. Deep pull on that side that takes up a lot more
time than the other side, kind of like a baseball pitcher winding up. Then they "fire" back to the
their non-breathing side where they perform a traditional arm pull.

If we were all allowed to use snorkels, things would be much different.

-Eric