FQS reminder

(4precious) said:

what are you guys talking about? Scoliosis?

It's not that complicated.

IT'S THE BREATHING!!!

Exactly.

Quoted message said:

And how to deal with the breathing in freestyle is a central them of swimming technique. The Bill
Boomer/TI crowd say we should all swim symmetrically, spending countless hours drilling in a pool
to try and work the breath in as seamlessly as possible with the rest of the stroke.

I would say they want us to rotate enough that we stroke well on both sides. That may or may not
lead to symmetrical swimming.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

Martin W. Smith said:

The issue is: Does asymmetry affect swimming more than it affects running and cycling.

You mean: Does *lateral dominance* affect swimming more than running or cycling? Maglischo's
charts show that there is some effect, but nowhere near the 60/40 splits that some people have
claimed for lopers.

BTW, if someone ran with a 60/40 split, you wouldn't say he was loping, you'd probably say he was
*skipping*.

Quoted message said:

I've explained my reasoning, but apparently not very well. Here is one more try. Stand on the floor
with your feet together. The floor is a fixed point. Your feet on the floor are interecting with a
fixed point.

I don't run with my feet together. They touch the ground briefly and separately.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

Martin W. Smith said:

Look, Donal, I know you know what I mean. Don't keep trying to avoid it by skewing what I write.

You think it is easier to be asymmetrical in water than on land. I disagree. I can skip, I can
twirl, I can run sideways, I can hop, I can even run backwards but I run symmetrically because it is
faster. Same goes for swimming.

Quoted message said:

Here it is again: If you have a scoliosis

I don't have scoliosis. Do you have any arguments that don't involve scoliosis?

Quoted message said:

If you really don't understand what I've written, then I don't know what else to tell you. If
you're just being obstinate, I give up.

Good

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

Martin W. Smith said:

What are you talking about! I said nothing of the kind.

Then I don't know what you are talking about.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

Martin W. Smith said:

...and you probably never will, which means you will forever believe that except for breathing,
there is no more asymmetry in swimming than in running or cycling.

Yes. From what I read in Maglischo's book, there is a slight decrease in pulling efficiency on the
non-dominant side. This decrease does not correspond to relative strength, it corresponds to lateral
dominance. When one looks at a swimmer that breathes to both sides, the asymmetry is virtually
undetectable, just as in running or cycling. Breathing to one side makes it very prominent.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Yes there is. If I have a scoliosis problem,

If you have a scoliosis problem, I really don't think it applies to the average swimmers technique.

Quoted message said:

No, lateral dominance affects swimming because you use your arms a lot in swimming. Arms aren't as
important in running and cycling, except for balance and gripping, but lateral dominance is of no
importance there.

Just ask a football/soccer player if they shoot better with one leg or another. Ask an American
football player if it matters which leg they use to kick a field goal.

Quoted message said:

Suppose I break my right arm and it is in a cast for 6 weeks. When the cast comes off, you're
saying the horrendous asymmetry won't affect my swimming.

Suppose I break my right leg and it is in a cast for 6 weeks. When the cast comes off, you're saying
the horrendous asymmetry won't affect my running?

Quoted message said:

That's silly. In fly, for example, if my left arm is significantly stronger than my right arm, if I
don't account for that, I will circle to my right.

That's silly. In running, for example, if my left leg is significantly stronger than my right leg,
if I don't account for that, I will circle to my right.

Quoted message said:

You still don't understand what I'm talking about.

I don't agree with you because haven't said anything remotely convincing. To the extent that they
apply at all, the asymmetry problems you mention seem to apply equally to arms and legs,

Donal Fagan said:

Martin W. Smith said:

The issue is: Does asymmetry affect swimming more than it affects running and cycling.

You mean: Does *lateral dominance* affect swimming more than running or cycling?

Look, Donal, I know you know what I mean. Don't keep trying to avoid it by skewing what I write.

Here it is again: If you have a scoliosis such that your spine has a slight S shape from left to
right, then your but is going to swing out to one side further than it swings out to the other side,
when you reach forward with the opposite arm. There is no fixed point you can use as a fulcrum to
hold your but in line. That's not true in running or cycling. In cycling it is obvious; you're
sitting on a seat so your but can't move to the side. In running, it is less obvious, but when your
foot strikes the ground, you use that friction to hold your body alignment. You don't have to think
about it, because it is natural to try to keep your motion as smooth as possible. In swimming, if
you have a lateral scoliosis, you have no fixed point you can use to keep your but from swinging
out, so you have to account for it in some other way.

If you really don't understand what I've written, then I don't know what else to tell you. If you're
just being obstinate, I give up.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

Donal Fagan said:

Martin W. Smith said:

Look, Donal, I know you know what I mean. Don't keep trying to avoid it by skewing what I write.

You think it is easier to be asymmetrical in water than on land. I disagree.

What are you talking about! I said nothing of the kind. You *are* just being obstinate. I've made my
point. If you don't understand it, too bad.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

Donal Fagan said:

Martin W. Smith said:

What are you talking about! I said nothing of the kind.

Then I don't know what you are talking about.

...and you probably never will, which means you will forever believe that except for breathing,
there is no more asymmetry in swimming than in running or cycling. As long as you're not coaching,
it won't be a problem.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

Donal Fagan said:

Martin W. Smith said:

...and you probably never will, which means you will forever believe that except for breathing,
there is no more asymmetry in swimming than in running or cycling.

Yes. From what I read in Maglischo's book, there is a slight decrease in pulling efficiency on the
non-dominant side. This decrease does not correspond to relative strength, it corresponds to
lateral dominance. When one looks at a swimmer that breathes to both sides, the asymmetry is
virtually undetectable, just as in running or cycling. Breathing to one side makes it very
prominent.

Try this then. Swim a timed 1500 freestyle breathing however you want but using only your right arm.
A few days later, swim a timed 1500 freestyle breathing however you want using only your left arm.
Repeat this sequence several times. If you and Maglischo are right, your average time using your
right arm should be very close to your average time using your left arm.

Then run the same experiment using a swimmer who has a diagnosed lateral scoliosis. Should be the
same result.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

Donal Fagan said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Yes there is. If I have a scoliosis problem,

If you have a scoliosis problem, I really don't think it applies to the average swimmers
technique.

The issue is: Does asymmetry affect swimming more than it affects running and cycling. I'm claiming
the answer is yes, because there is no fixed point fulcrum in swimming which can be used to hold the
body in line, like there is in both running and cycling. I've explained my reasoning, but apparently
not very well. Here is one more try. Stand on the floor with your feet together. The floor is a
fixed point. Your feet on the floor are interecting with a fixed point. Now, alternate reaching your
arms straight up, high above your head and pull down, as if you are swimming the crawlstroke. You
will feel your hips move back and forth out of alignment with your body. Your knees will move, too.
But because your feet are in contact with the floor, you can use that friction to force your hips
and knees to stay in line as you continue moving your arms. It is that friction between your feet
and the floor that allows you to control your fishtailing hips and knees. You don't have that
friction in swimming, because there is no fixed point. The fishtailing must be minimized in other
ways. A scoliosis or a strong lateral dominance will make the problem worse, again because there is
no fixed point to work from. Both running and cycling have a fixed point to work from, so asymmetry
is much less of a problem.

If you can't see the problem when you try that experiment, then I don't know what else to tell you.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

Martin W. Smith said:

Try this then. Swim a timed 1500 freestyle breathing however you want but using only your
right arm.

I doubt I could swim that far with one arm.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

Donal Fagan said:

Martin W. Smith said:

Try this then. Swim a timed 1500 freestyle breathing however you want but using only your
right arm.

I doubt I could swim that far with one arm.

Then set the distance to as far as you can swim using only your non-dominant arm.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

Martin W. Smith said:

Run the complete experiment first with kicking.

And you will be doing what? holding my coat? I expect you to do the same experiment.

Quoted message said:

Then run the complete experiment using a pull bouy. I think if you can't go at least 500 with one
arm, the results won't be very meaningful.

I plan to do one arm pulling, one arm extended for my normal 500 warmup tomorrow and Friday (I have
to travel Thursday). My kick is light and since my TI workshop, pull buoys don't really change
anything for me.

This better not give me scoliosis. ;-)

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

Martin W. Smith said:

I've done quite a lot of swimming with one arm. I know what will happen. If you are like me, a
softball player and a left hander, your left side is *much* stronger than your right side, and your
right arm times will be much slower than your left arm times.

We'll see. I'm a right-handed tennis player and I spent my first 35 years of swimming breathing
entirely to my right.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

Martin W. Smith said:

Donal Fagan said:

Martin W. Smith said:

Try this then. Swim a timed 1500 freestyle breathing however you want but using only your
right arm.

I doubt I could swim that far with one arm.

Then set the distance to as far as you can swim using only your non-dominant arm.

Run the complete experiment first with kicking. Then run the complete experiment using a pull bouy.
I think if you can't go at least 500 with one arm, the results won't be very meaningful.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

Donal Fagan said:

Martin W. Smith said:

Run the complete experiment first with kicking.

And you will be doing what? holding my coat? I expect you to do the same experiment.

I've done quite a lot of swimming with one arm. I know what will happen. If you are like me, a
softball player and a left hander, your left side is *much* stronger than your right side, and your
right arm times will be much slower than your left arm times.

But I'm not swimming these days anyway, so I won't be repeating the experiment.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Then run the complete experiment using a pull bouy. I think if you can't go at least 500 with one
arm, the results won't be very meaningful.

I plan to do one arm pulling, one arm extended for my normal 500 warmup tomorrow and Friday (I
have to travel Thursday). My kick is light and since my TI workshop, pull buoys don't really
change anything for me.

Warmups don't count. Timetrial. Swim to exhaustion. The effect of asymmetry becomes much more
pronounced as you get more tired. We're talking go hard or go home. No sammy save ups.

Quoted message said:

This better not give me scoliosis. ;-)

It can't because there is no fixed point pushing your spine outm of alignment.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

Donal Fagan said:

After writing this:

"Swim a timed 1500 freestyle breathing however you want but using only your right arm. A few days
later, swim a timed 1500 freestyle breathing however you want using only your left arm."

... why would you assume I was doing both on the same day?

Sorry. Because I would have, and I just forgot that I recommended otherwise.

But don't bother reporting each swim. Take some weeks or months and build up some data, at least
until you see a trend.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway