Inefficient Breaststroke

(Sean) said:

Hi all, Does anyone have any advice or could point me towards a source to help me improve my
breaststroke?

breaststroke.infobreaststroke.infoOpen ↗

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

(4precious) said:

I just viewed a very good video of Ed Moses swimming breast-stroke.

I read that Moses recently had surgery in both knees.

I wonder if that was from overuse, incorrect technique or just susceptible physiology.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

On Tue, 18 Feb 2003 17:50:01 GMT, Donal Fagan <Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com> pondered, puzzeled,
prognosticated (perhaps even premeditated), and then, in a very wise voice, sed: :

Quoted message said:

(4precious) said:

I just viewed a very good video of Ed Moses swimming breast-stroke.

I read that Moses recently had surgery in both knees.

I wonder if that was from overuse, incorrect technique or just susceptible physiology.

It is my theory that what makes one good at breaststroke is what also makes them susceptible to
injury. If you have the anatomic ability to be good at breaststroke kick, then you will likely have
surgery at some point in your life--even if you aren't a swimmer.

--
chris

"Yes! is the answer."

-- John Lennon

Sean said:

Hi all,

Hi Sean; how amusing! 🙂

Amusing not because of reading a post by you here, when we have been swimming shoulder to shoulder
only hours ago! 🙂

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any advice or could point me towards a source to help me improve my breaststroke?
I would like to think that my crawl is a pretty good standard now and I know that I can move quite
quickly and efficiently in the water.

Why "good standard now"? As long as I remember over the past eighteen years or so, you have
consistently been quite an outstanding freestyle swimmer. I know! ... You are my erstwhile coach! 🙂

And I still enjoy the odd occasions when we find each other in the same lane and do some excellent
work-out together.

Anyway. I actually did once puzzle over your inability to swim breaststroke. You can do the
butterfly; but not the breaststroke!

In my view, there could be two factors contributing to your inability (not inefficiency - because
you simply cannot swim breaststroke, mate 🙂 .

One factor being physical, the other psychological. On the physical, you seem to get your timing
wrong. In other words, your upper body and lower body rhythem are out of synch, which for someone
with musical talent, it's a crying shame! 🙂)

On psychological, first let me paraphrase yourself stating years ago: "Why swim like a frog, when
you can swim like a dolphin?" And for a swimmer like yourself who is uncommonly gifted in freestyle,
over the years, your attitude has probably conditioned toward this funny stroke, the breaststroke,
which you indeed have thought of as an "inefficient stroke" to begin with! Something that I actually
don't entirely disagree with you. In addition, I don't think it is kind on the knees.

The amusing thing is that NOW you have decided to learn it! 🙂 🙂 And how? By _reading_ about it? 🙂
... Of all people, YOU?! 🙂 LOL! 🙂 🙂

Not that I ignore your dedication to studying swimming. Rather, knowing that you are an action
learner. Maybe you are too proud being seen in the pool awkwardly trying to master this ridiculous
stroke. So you'd rather learn it in the privacy of your study! I'm only joking, of course. 🙂

Anyway. Next time when we have the occasion to meet at the pool, I will be delighted to coach you in
breaststroke. My breaststroke is not too bad, although myself hardly swim breaststroke (save for my
underwater drills).

I owe it to you mate. You have been an excellent freestyle coach to me.

However let ME ask you: Why all of a sudden you want to "swim like a frog", when you already "swim
like a dolphin"? 🙂

Cheers, Shahin

Quoted message said:

However when it comes to the breaststroke I lag quite seriously behind others in our local pool.
I've read that you should split 75 legs and 25% arms this I try but it seem I have a very
inefficient kick. Any pointers would be great. Thanks Sean

One of the most common problems with breaststroke kick is that swimmers lead with their toes and
"slip" through the water. Try pushing with your heel, so the whole sole of your foot is pushing
against the water. Also, try to stay symetrical.

Cheers

--
Roger McMillan Margaret River, Australia Ph (08) 9757 9314 "Sean" <[email hidden]> wrote
in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi all, Does anyone have any advice or could point me towards a source to help me improve my
breaststroke? I would like to think that my crawl is a pretty good standard now and I know that I
can move quite quickly and efficiently in the water. However when it comes to the breaststroke I
lag quite seriously behind others in our local pool. I've read that you should split 75 legs and
25% arms this I try but it seem I have a very inefficient kick. Any pointers would be great.
Thanks Sean

In Chris said:

Checking up on this on the web, I see Tom Dolan (medley) also had recent knee surgery. But Lenny
Krayzelburg (backstroke) had knee surgery last year also. Backstroke would seem to be pretty safe
as far as the knees go ...

Was it knee surgery? I was under the impression Krayzelburg had shoulder surgery.

My backstroke would be safe for anyone. It's slower than my breaststroke.

Ross

[email hidden] (Sean) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi all, Does anyone have any advice or could point me towards a source to help me improve my
breaststroke? I would like to think that my crawl is a pretty good standard now and I know that I
can move quite quickly and efficiently in the water. However when it comes to the breaststroke I
lag quite seriously behind others in our local pool. I've read that you should split 75 legs and
25% arms this I try but it seem I have a very inefficient kick. Any pointers would be great.
Thanks Sean

You can watch a clip of David Denniston (who recently won the World Cup in breaststroke) at:

goswim.tvbreaststroke.htmlOpen ↗

The thing that amazed me most about this clip is the degree of spread between Dave's feet as he
kicks back. You can't see it in the still pictures, but if you watch the Quicktime video, you'll see
that his feet actually make a 180 degree angle with each other as he kicks back! My feet
(unfortunately) don't turn that far apart, but it enables Dave to kick with the sides of his ankles,
thereby presenting the largest surface to the water.

I was also interested in how late in the sequence he begins his recovery. His feet don't come
forward until he has finished his arm stroke and is drawing his hands together.

There appear to be three distinct phases to his kick:

1) On his recovery, he draws his heels all the way up to his buttocks.

2) Next, he spreads his feet apart, pointing his toes at the sides of the pool, and kicks back.

3) After he finishes kicking back, his feet turn so his toes are in line with his legs, and then he
brings his legs together, squeezing the water out from between them.

Phases 2 and 3 appear to take about the same amount of time, so the kick is essentially a 2-count
movement: (1) kick back, (2) snap the legs together.

Bob

Shanin, I really think you've got the wrong person here -i'm no one's coach! sean

"Shahin Malekpour" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Sean said:

Hi all,

Hi Sean; how amusing! 🙂

Amusing not because of reading a post by you here, when we have been swimming shoulder to shoulder
only hours ago! 🙂

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any advice or could point me towards a source to help me improve my
breaststroke? I would like to think that my crawl is a pretty good standard now and I know that
I can move quite quickly and efficiently in the water.

Why "good standard now"? As long as I remember over the past eighteen years or so, you have
consistently been quite an outstanding freestyle swimmer. I know! ... You are my erstwhile
coach! 🙂

And I still enjoy the odd occasions when we find each other in the same lane and do some excellent
work-out together.

Anyway. I actually did once puzzle over your inability to swim breaststroke. You can do the
butterfly; but not the breaststroke!

In my view, there could be two factors contributing to your inability (not inefficiency - because
you simply cannot swim breaststroke, mate 🙂 .

One factor being physical, the other psychological. On the physical, you seem to get your timing
wrong. In other words, your upper body and lower body rhythem are out of synch, which for someone
with musical talent, it's a crying shame! 🙂)

On psychological, first let me paraphrase yourself stating years ago: "Why swim like a frog, when
you can swim like a dolphin?" And for a swimmer like yourself who is uncommonly gifted in
freestyle, over the years, your attitude has probably conditioned toward this funny stroke, the
breaststroke, which you indeed have thought of as an "inefficient stroke" to begin with!
Something that I actually don't entirely disagree with you. In addition, I don't think it is kind
on the knees.

The amusing thing is that NOW you have decided to learn it! 🙂 🙂 And how? By _reading_ about it?
🙂 ... Of all people, YOU?! 🙂 LOL! 🙂 🙂

Not that I ignore your dedication to studying swimming. Rather, knowing that you are an action
learner. Maybe you are too proud being seen in the pool awkwardly trying to master this ridiculous
stroke. So you'd rather learn it in the privacy of your study! I'm only joking, of course. 🙂

Anyway. Next time when we have the occasion to meet at the pool, I will be delighted to coach you
in breaststroke. My breaststroke is not too bad, although myself hardly swim breaststroke (save
for my underwater drills).

I owe it to you mate. You have been an excellent freestyle coach to me.

However let ME ask you: Why all of a sudden you want to "swim like a frog", when you already "swim
like a dolphin"? 🙂

Cheers, Shahin

Quoted message said:

However when it comes to the breaststroke I lag quite seriously behind others in our local pool.
I've read that you should split 75 legs and 25% arms this I try but it seem I have a very
inefficient kick. Any pointers would be great. Thanks Sean

Sean said:

Shanin, I really think you've got the wrong person here -i'm no one's coach! sean

Opps! I ought to have checked your email address! 🙂

No harm done. Sean, my coach and swimming mate posts here from time to time, also under the same
net-name "Sean", and by George (or should I say Patrick 🙂 he is a lousy breaststroke swimmer; but
an outstanding free styler. An innocent and amusing mix-up.

I should have known better after reading: "I would like to think that my crawl is a pretty good
standard now", because that would have been untypical modesty expressed by someone like the Sean I
know, who is more than confident in his standard of swimming the crawl; also by suspecting his
sudden and curious interest in the breaststroke that he loathes! 🙂

Incidentally. A good drill for improving your kick in the breast stroke can be comfortably practiced
on the deck, or even in the comfort of your living room:

Sit upright on the floor with your legs stretched, and toes pointing out in front of you. Brace
your body by placing your hands either sides of your hips, palms down, fingers spread and
pointing forward.

Bring your feet together, soles touching, drag them on the floor as far as they come up to your
crutch, while separating your knees as wide as they can go at the same time.

With the same tempo spread your legs wide open, as wide as you comfortably manage, bringing both
your legs in contact with the floor, the soles of your feet facing one another, well apart.

NOW COMES THE CRUCIAL PHASE: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CLOSE your legs by _QUICKLY_ bringing
them back to the original position, with both toes pointing away, soles coming to contact. This is
the propulsive phase. Remember that in this phase you must put some welly in your kick as you
streamline your body. That is the key. Practice by repeating that cycle.

Have fun, Shahin

"Shahin Malekpour" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Sean said:

Hi all,

Hi Sean; how amusing! 🙂

Amusing not because of reading a post by you here, when we have been swimming shoulder to shoulder
only hours ago! 🙂

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have any advice or could point me towards a source to help me improve my
breaststroke? I would like to think that my crawl is a pretty good standard now and I know that
I can move quite quickly and efficiently in the water.

Why "good standard now"? As long as I remember over the past eighteen years or so, you have
consistently been quite an outstanding freestyle swimmer. I know! ... You are my erstwhile
coach! 🙂

And I still enjoy the odd occasions when we find each other in the same lane and do some excellent
work-out together.

Anyway. I actually did once puzzle over your inability to swim breaststroke. You can do the
butterfly; but not the breaststroke!

In my view, there could be two factors contributing to your inability (not inefficiency - because
you simply cannot swim breaststroke, mate 🙂 .

One factor being physical, the other psychological. On the physical, you seem to get your timing
wrong. In other words, your upper body and lower body rhythem are out of synch, which for someone
with musical talent, it's a crying shame! 🙂)

On psychological, first let me paraphrase yourself stating years ago: "Why swim like a frog, when
you can swim like a dolphin?" And for a swimmer like yourself who is uncommonly gifted in
freestyle, over the years, your attitude has probably conditioned toward this funny stroke, the
breaststroke, which you indeed have thought of as an "inefficient stroke" to begin with! Something
that I actually don't

entirely

Quoted message said:

disagree with you. In addition, I don't think it is kind on the knees.

The amusing thing is that NOW you have decided to learn it! 🙂 🙂 And how? By _reading_ about it?
🙂 ... Of all people, YOU?! 🙂 LOL! 🙂 🙂

Not that I ignore your dedication to studying swimming. Rather, knowing that you are an action
learner. Maybe you are too proud being seen in the pool awkwardly trying to master this ridiculous
stroke. So you'd rather learn it in the privacy of your study! I'm only joking, of course. 🙂

Anyway. Next time when we have the occasion to meet at the pool, I will be delighted to coach you
in breaststroke. My breaststroke is not too bad, although myself hardly swim breaststroke (save
for my underwater drills).

I owe it to you mate. You have been an excellent freestyle coach to me.

However let ME ask you: Why all of a sudden you want to "swim like a frog", when you already "swim
like a dolphin"? 🙂

Cheers, Shahin

Quoted message said:

However when it comes to the breaststroke I lag quite seriously behind others in our local pool.
I've read that you should split 75 legs and 25% arms this I try but it seem I have a very
inefficient kick. Any pointers would be great. Thanks Sean

(Sean) said:

Hi, where is htis site?

donalfagan.comswim videos.htmlOpen ↗

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

[email hidden] (Sean) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi, where is htis site?

donalfagan.comswim videos.htmlOpen ↗

Another man, Donald Graft, made most of the videos.

Eric

"Shahin Malekpour" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sean said:

Shanin, I really think you've got the wrong person here -i'm no one's coach! sean

Opps! I ought to have checked your email address! 🙂

No harm done. Sean, my coach and swimming mate posts here from time to time, also under the same
net-name "Sean", and by George (or should I say Patrick 🙂 he is a lousy breaststroke swimmer; but
an outstanding free styler. An innocent and amusing mix-up.

I should have known better after reading: "I would like to think that my crawl is a pretty good
standard now", because that would have been untypical modesty expressed by someone like the Sean I
know, who is more than confident in his standard of swimming the crawl; also by suspecting his
sudden and curious interest in the breaststroke that he loathes! 🙂

Incidentally. A good drill for improving your kick in the breast stroke can be comfortably
practiced on the deck, or even in the comfort of your living room:

Sit upright on the floor with your legs stretched, and toes pointing out in front of you. Brace
your body by placing your hands either sides of your hips, palms down, fingers spread and pointing
forward.

Bring your feet together, soles touching, drag them on the floor as far as they come up to your
crutch, while separating your knees as wide as they can go at the same time.

With the same tempo spread your legs wide open, as wide as you comfortably manage, bringing both
your legs in contact with the floor, the soles of your feet facing one another, well apart.

NOW COMES THE CRUCIAL PHASE: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ CLOSE your legs by _QUICKLY_
bringing them back to the original position, with both toes pointing away, soles coming to
contact.

Correction: the inner sides of your feet, rather than the "soles". Do bear in mind that this is an
exaggerated drill, like most drills, to help highten an awareness and to focus on areas of
improvement. An important thing to also bear in mind is being relaxed.

Quoted message said:

This is the propulsive phase.

Quoted message said:

Remember that in this phase you must put some welly in your kick as you streamline your body. That
is the key. Practice by repeating that cycle.

Have fun, Shahin

Now that sounds a really good way to visualise what i am trying to achieve. Many thanks. sean (the
other one!)

Donal Fagan said:

I read that Moses recently had surgery in both knees.

I wonder if that was from overuse, incorrect technique or just susceptible physiology.

Yikes, Donal! Now you've got me scared. I have always heard that breaststroke is hard on the knees,
but now I'm worried. I swim breaststroke as my main masters swimming competitive stroke, but I think
I may try to switch to another stroke now. I am swimming for fitness rather than running because of
all the runners I know with blown-out knees. It's inconvenient when you're 50, but bad knees really
wreak your life when you're 70.

Donal Fagan said:

I read that Moses recently had surgery in both knees.

Checking up on this on the web, I see Tom Dolan (medley) also had recent knee surgery. But Lenny
Krayzelburg (backstroke) had knee surgery last year also. Backstroke would seem to be pretty safe as
far as the knees go ...

(Chris) said:

Checking up on this on the web, I see Tom Dolan (medley) also had recent knee surgery. But Lenny
Krayzelburg (backstroke) had knee surgery last year also. Backstroke would seem to be pretty safe
as far as the knees go ...

After Breast, Backstroke is my second biggest kicking stroke. I kick a lot more in Back
than in Crawl.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

[email hidden] (Chris) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Donal Fagan said:

I read that Moses recently had surgery in both knees.

Checking up on this on the web, I see Tom Dolan (medley) also had recent knee surgery. But Lenny
Krayzelburg (backstroke) had knee surgery last year also. Backstroke would seem to be pretty safe
as far as the knees go ...

Tom Dolan blew his knee playing basketball. At least that's how he did it the first time - don't
know if you're referring to another event.

That was prior to Sydney, however, so he obviously came back strong.

-Eric

When doing the breastroke swim slowly and practicing gliding. Then try a few 25 yard sprints and
move your legs faster.

Ross Bogue said:

Was it knee surgery? I was under the impression Krayzelburg had shoulder surgery.

Apparently shoulder in 2001, knee in 2002. However, I don't know if the knee injury was due to
swimming or a basketball game with Dolan.