Base miles

topcat said:

Ive noticed people come on here asking for advice on training, maybe when they've just started out and then all this watts blah blah stuff comes out, whatever happened to the whole base mileage, building your engine then tuning it when you got a good enough base?

Like to hear people's opinions

(sorry if that sounded like im having a rant, wasnt!)

What happened was people realized there's no reason for it. Riding a lot really slowly isn't anything magical.

whoawhoa said:

What happened was people realized there's no reason for it. Riding a lot really slowly isn't anything magical.

But then u do it for a few weeks, and deff. get something out of it, i guess everybody's different

topcat said:

But then u do it for a few weeks, and deff. get something out of it, i guess everybody's different

Yeah, you get slow and maybe saddlesores, too.

whoawhoa said:

What happened was people realized there's no reason for it. Riding a lot really slowly isn't anything magical.

Of course there is a reason for it.

Firstly you need to be able to ride for race duration. Some people will need to build up to this even if it is a 45min race.

Secondly you need to be able to ride hard for race duration.

Once you can do this you can start adding your threshold work.

For some people it may take a 2-12 months to build up to a sufficient level. I plan to be competitive in Cat 2 races or Vet 1 races over 100km which means being able to ride for 3-4 hours (L2-3). When I achieve this the next step will be the ability to ride hard for at least 3 hours (L3-4).

Currently I can do 2 hours at L2-L3 and 90 min at L3-4 after 6 months of limited riding (winter, work, social life, coaching etc).

Some people will be able to commit more time to their training and recovery and will get there faster. Some rider will have more talent and get there faster. Others will have more training and racing under their belt and will get there faster.

Another argument comes from Lydiard that the longer that one can spending building their base (either in terms of increasing time or intensity over a set duration) the better the end result will be when they go through a speed (L5-L7) phase and taper for the big event.

As mentioned before I don't believe that you need a set amount of miles in the legs before doing intensive efforts as if X amount of miles will magically prepare you for racing or hard training.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

topcat said:

Ive noticed people come on here asking for advice on training, maybe when they've just started out and then all this watts blah blah stuff comes out, whatever happened to the whole base mileage, building your engine then tuning it when you got a good enough base?

When new riders post for training advice, the typical responses do seem to involve getting as much time in the saddle as schedule permits.

The watts and blah blah stuff is more for riders that have been training for some time, and are now looking to improve their performance beyond what they have gotten by just spending time in the saddle.

fergie said:

Of course there is a reason for it.

Firstly you need to be able to ride for race duration. Some people will need to build up to this even if it is a 45min race.

Absolutely. I was thinking in the context of at least moderately fit racers training for typical road/mountain events who should be able to ride their even distance fairly easily.

fergie said:

Secondly you need to be able to ride hard for race duration.

Once you can do this you can start adding your threshold work.

What do you think dictates the ability to ride hard for race duration, especially in a road race with fluctuating power outputs? (functional threshold is my guess)

fergie said:

Another argument comes from Lydiard that the longer that one can spending building their base (either in terms of increasing time or intensity over a set duration) the better the end result will be when they go through a speed (L5-L7) phase and taper for the big event.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

threshold, threshold, threshold, threshold.

L2 is great for newbies.

The biggest challange with them, is to hook them to the sport. Best way to do it, enjoyable sight seeing rides.

There is no need to push over L3, for someone that is riding her first 1000mi, in first year of training.

Just go out there and meet pure pleasure, under the sun, with few ez hills, and maybe one or two more difficult.

A drug gets released in the body, when doing L2. I don't know the name of the drug, but newbies got to experiment that. For newbies, L2 is the best way to train Lactate threshold, as it will have a favorable impact on the whole cardiovascular system.

Tempo may sometimes be bad, it may make them feel uncomfortable.

Newbies should learn how to log, as early as possible. They will have a motivation out of their written improvement.

When they group ride, they will be naturally intested to join faster pack, especially if their friends are in the pack. Then, they'll be ready for more hardcore workouts 😄

So Topcat, newbies should keep tuning up the engine for as long as you want. And for the rest of their career if they want, there is nothing wrong with that.

SolarEnergy said:

L2 is great for newbies.

The biggest challange with them, is to hook them to the sport. Best way to do it, enjoyable sight seeing rides.

There is no need to push over L3, for someone that is riding her first 1000mi, in first year of training.

Just go out there and meet pure pleasure, under the sun, with few ez hills, and maybe one or two more difficult.

A drug gets released in the body, when doing L2. I don't know the name of the drug, but newbies got to experiment that. For newbies, L2 is the best way to train Lactate threshold, as it will have a favorable impact on the whole cardiovascular system.

Tempo may sometimes be bad, it may make them feel uncomfortable.

Newbies should learn how to log, as early as possible. They will have a motivation out of their written improvement.

When they group ride, they will be naturally intested to join faster pack, especially if their friends are in the pack. Then, they'll be ready for more hardcore workouts 😄

So Topcat, newbies should keep tuning up the engine for as long as you want. And for the rest of their career if they want, there is nothing wrong with that.

Base is very important for any cyclist. Professionals ride base in december, january and february...you need endurance and your legs need to get used to spinning at a maintainable cadence. Still include intensity 3 times a week in the form of a local club race or sprints.

whoawhoa said:

What do you think dictates the ability to ride hard for race duration, especially in a road race with fluctuating power outputs? (functional threshold is my guess).

.

Yup around that level. I would say the ability to ride at ave race power for at least 80% (ideally 100%) of the goal road race duration.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

In Lance's Performance Plan book, he talks about doing endurance rides of 4-6 hours, at a strict level of 60-62% max HR. Of course, a multi-day stage racer preparing for 100-150 mile days is going to have different volume needs from a crit rider, but I doubt if he did those just for "sight seeing". Actually, a lot of his race time in the TdF peleton was probably at those levels, with the strong team he had pulling for him.

Successful Cat 1's I know here ride 10-15K miles a year, and they've told me the great majority of that mileage is "endurance" or "base" mileage. Believe this is pretty typical mileage for many. Of course, they do hard intervals, climbing, sprinting as well, but that's only a portion of the total miles....maybe 20%.

It could be that they are doing a lot of unneccessary aerobic miles of course, and would make more progress with fewer miles or more intensity. Believe the big challenge for anyone training (and their coaches) is to find the optimum mileage/intensity mix which produces the best improvement relative to their goals.

dhk said:

In Lance's Performance Plan book, he talks about doing endurance rides of 4-6 hours, at a strict level of 60-62% max HR. Of course, a multi-day stage racer preparing for 100-150 mile days is going to have different volume needs from a crit rider, but I doubt if he did those just for "sight seeing". Actually, a lot of his race time in the TdF peleton was probably at those levels, with the strong team he had pulling for him.

Successful Cat 1's I know here ride 10-15K miles a year, and they've told me the great majority of that mileage is "endurance" or "base" mileage. Believe this is pretty typical mileage for many. Of course, they do hard intervals, climbing, sprinting as well, but that's only a portion of the total miles....maybe 20%.

It could be that they are doing a lot of unneccessary aerobic miles of course, and would make more progress with fewer miles or more intensity. Believe the big challenge for anyone training (and their coaches) is to find the optimum mileage/intensity mix which produces the best improvement relative to their goals.

That is very different. During a tour, Lance & all spend a lot of time at L2. You got to prepare for races. Ironman triathletes will spend most of their time in L2 and 3. Olympic distance athletes in L3 and 4. That depends.

IMO, someone that doesn't have much time training, following Lance type of program, will be slow. Too much time spent in L2, nothing to do with a 50k crit.

SolarEnergy said:

There is no need to push over L3, for someone that is riding her first 1000mi, in first year of training.

I just started riding about 3 months ago, and I do intervals at L6 at least twice a week.

ToffoIsMe said:

I just started riding about 3 months ago, and I do intervals at L6 at least twice a week.

Why l6? How much l4/5 are you doing?

Sometimes, they do that in spinning classes.

Things like 6X1min "all out" with 30sec rest followed immediately be 8X2min "all out" with 30sec rest, and so on and such non stop... ouffff... let me breathe. 😄

whoawhoa said:

Why l6? How much l4/5 are you doing?

My regular routine builds up with two l4s, then an l5, then the l6, followed by another l5 and two more l4s. I do those intervals twice a week and the other days I just do base miles in the l3-l4 range.

ToffoIsMe said:

My regular routine builds up with two l4s, then an l5, then the l6, followed by another l5 and two more l4s. I do those intervals twice a week and the other days I just do base miles in the l3-l4 range.

Something sounds wrong here. First, L3 is Tempo and L4 is Threshold - neither of these are "base mile" ranges. I'll really stick my neck out and guess that most of us, esp. at this time of year, aren't doing more than 60 minutes of L4 in a daily ride; I typically end up with about 45 minutes of L4 in intervals greater than 10 minutes or so (i.e. there may be more time in L4, but I don't count the 1 & 2 minute stretches of climbing, etc.). And typically a workout is either L4 or L3 intervals (not both in one ride), and even in L3, I don't think many people put in more than an hour or so at Tempo. (Now, before Fergie appears, I'm talking about Masters and lets say cat3/4 riders, not professionals, world-class amateurs, or the genetically gifted abnormal ones 😉 .) But back to basics - if you've only been riding for 3 months (I think you said that in an earlier post) I think most of your riding would be L2/L3 (and not as specific intervals) with some low-end L4. Its been mentioned in other threads that you can see huge improvements simply by accumulating L4 time, without doing anything in L5/L6 (and certainly not in January!). If you're having fun with those high-end intervals, fine, but if you're doing them because you feel you're supposed to, I think you're working too hard for someone quite new to the sport.

topcat said:

Ive noticed people come on here asking for advice on training, maybe when they've just started out and then all this watts blah blah stuff comes out, whatever happened to the whole base mileage, building your engine then tuning it when you got a good enough base?

Like to hear people's opinions

(sorry if that sounded like im having a rant, wasnt!)

I may be in the minority but it seems to me that most January hero types are not very good racers or race at a fairly low level. I'm sure there are exceptions but...

Most if not all the cat1/2 pro riders (the fastest guys I have to reference) I know and ride with are taking it easy right now.

topcat said:

Ive noticed people come on here asking for advice on training, maybe when they've just started out and then all this watts blah blah stuff comes out, whatever happened to the whole base mileage, building your engine then tuning it when you got a good enough base?

Like to hear people's opinions

(sorry if that sounded like im having a rant, wasnt!)

I may be in the minority but it seems to me that most January hero types are not very good racers or race at a fairly low level. I'm sure there are exceptions but...

Most if not all the cat1/2 pro riders (the fastest guys I have to reference) I know and ride with are taking it easy right now.

palewin said:

Something sounds wrong here. First, L3 is Tempo and L4 is Threshold - neither of these are "base mile" ranges. I'll really stick my neck out and guess that most of us, esp. at this time of year, aren't doing more than 60 minutes of L4 in a daily ride; I typically end up with about 45 minutes of L4 in intervals greater than 10 minutes or so (i.e. there may be more time in L4, but I don't count the 1 & 2 minute stretches of climbing, etc.). And typically a workout is either L4 or L3 intervals (not both in one ride), and even in L3, I don't think many people put in more than an hour or so at Tempo. (Now, before Fergie appears, I'm talking about Masters and lets say cat3/4 riders, not professionals, world-class amateurs, or the genetically gifted abnormal ones 😉 .) But back to basics - if you've only been riding for 3 months (I think you said that in an earlier post) I think most of your riding would be L2/L3 (and not as specific intervals) with some low-end L4. Its been mentioned in other threads that you can see huge improvements simply by accumulating L4 time, without doing anything in L5/L6 (and certainly not in January!). If you're having fun with those high-end intervals, fine, but if you're doing them because you feel you're supposed to, I think you're working too hard for someone quite new to the sport.

We must be talking about different levels then. L3 is endurance, L4 is tempo, L5 is threshold, and L6 is anaerobic. Thats the levels I've been using at least. Sorry if there was a miscommunication.