Time to do v02max work?

whoawhoa said:

I did my first true set of v02max work since late november tonight. Despite the fact that I did 6x5 with 2.5 ri (vs. the sessions I was doing, 5x5 with 5 ri) I just couldn't seem to get perceived exertion up. I did them outside on a course I use for the vast majority of my non-trainer intervals, and speed was good, I really didn't feel like I could go any harder.

So should I take anything from this? The last six weeks have been aimed at raising threshold, and my ft was definitely high compared to my 5 minute power even before that. So should I stick in a block of v02max work?

Your doing vO2max intervals in January? When is your goal event? What are you going to do training wise for the rest of the year?

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

whoawhoa said:

So should I take anything from this? The last six weeks have been aimed at raising threshold, and my ft was definitely high compared to my 5 minute power even before that. So should I stick in a block of v02max work?

Or course there is something to take from this. You lack power/speed. It is not a problem at all, in my own humble opinion. It just means that your low level base threshold work as prepared you well, for what you have just began to do.

Just stick to VO2Max. Or you may consider working it in shorter intervals. 3 minutes for instance. Then when you come back to 5s, you'll naturally start them at the same power as the 3s, and then, they will feel different.

Train smart, don't burnout. Wait till this summer for this 😉

SolarEnergy said:

Train smart, don't burnout. Wait till this summer for this 😉

Et tu, Solar? (Even you, Solar?) Isn't January the time for general preparation? If someone needs work to improve their VO2max, why wait until summer for that?

I know this is flirting with intensity, but it's got to be done sometime. Is there something race-specific or burnout-inducing about VO2 intervals with adequate rest in between?

Non non, pas moi (not me).

Sorry, I was just saying, wait till this summer for burning out !

Not wait till this summer for VO2Max training !

I'd never do any "building block" recommendation without seeing the rest of the yearly macrocycle anyway.

At what power (as % of FT) did you do these? What do you think your MP is at 5 mins? Sounds to me as though you are just more fit. I'm not a good one to opine on doing these in January because I'm not persuaded about the whole training cycle theory. I do L4-L7 intervals on every ride, every week, all year. The main thing I vary is total weekly volume, least in December and gradually increasing from now through May.

whoawhoa said:

I did my first true set of v02max work since late november tonight. Despite the fact that I did 6x5 with 2.5 ri (vs. the sessions I was doing, 5x5 with 5 ri) I just couldn't seem to get perceived exertion up. I did them outside on a course I use for the vast majority of my non-trainer intervals, and speed was good, I really didn't feel like I could go any harder.

I'm not sure I'm understanding your statements that you couldn't get your perceived exertion up, but didn't feel like you could go any harder. Could you maybe expand on that?

fergie said:

Your doing vO2max intervals in January? When is your goal event? What are you going to do training wise for the rest of the year?

Personally, I'm planning to progress towards more race-specific group rides, training races, weekly training crits, etc. once the weather warms up. I don't see anything particularly specific about 4-5 minute L5 intervals with 2-5 minutes rest in between. Depending on the frequency of these workouts, they could either be maintenance or building in nature, IMO.

SolarEnergy said:

Sorry, I was just saying, wait till this summer for burning out !

Ok, yeah I misunderstood. I've got my burnout scheduled for later in the year, too. 🙄 :p

I think you've mentioned that you're using "reverse periodization." Wouldn't that mean that you should get your burnout done at the beginning of the year rather than waiting until the end?

frenchyge said:

I think you've mentioned that you're using "reverse periodization." Wouldn't that mean that you should get your burnout done at the beginning of the year rather than waiting until the end?

😄 Best I've heard on this forum! LMFAO!

fergie said:

Your doing vO2max intervals in January? When is your goal event? What are you going to do training wise for the rest of the year?

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

Works for me! Tonight will be 3 blocks of 6' each, 30" on at ~110-120% of VO2max power/30" off. SFR training and a gradual build to this amount of work and intensity are prerequisites for me. Next week will be 3 x 7' blocks.

Increasing the amount of work to a certain point, then increase the intensity. Can substitute mass-start track races. Peak for Nat's in August, and maybe again in September for Worlds. YMMV.

frenchyge said:

I think you've mentioned that you're using "reverse periodization." Wouldn't that mean that you should get your burnout done at the beginning of the year rather than waiting until the end?

I am not using it 100% for myself this year. The two persons I am following this year, are Ironman athletes, we use mixed type of periodization. Low volume more intense on the bike this automn (trainer), but lots of base mileage ont the run.

Even in the context of RP, I don't think the risk of burning out occurs early in the year (even compared to classical periodization). Problems usually begins during the racing season.

Because with RP, you increase L4-5-6 while keeping the overall volume relatively low during winter. But may end up having difficulty increasing the mileage while trying to maintain L4-5-6 early in Spring/summer.

For what it's worth, whenever I can plan classic periodization, I do.

WarrenG said:

Works for me! Tonight will be 3 blocks of 6' each, 30" on at ~110-120% of VO2max power/30" off. SFR training and a gradual build to this amount of work and intensity are prerequisites for me. Next week will be 3 x 7' blocks.

Increasing the amount of work to a certain point, then increase the intensity. Can substitute mass-start track races. Peak for Nat's in August, and maybe again in September for Worlds. YMMV.

Just a curiosity Warren.

Do you think your VO2Max is still improving at your level (whatever you may do and whenever you may do it)?

SolarEnergy said:

Just a curiosity Warren.

Do you think your VO2Max is still improving at your level (whatever you may do and whenever you may do it)?

You bring up a very important point-what is the real value of raising one's VO2max number?

I suppose my VO2max number is going up slightly, but that is not an objective. My power at VO2max is important, but what's more important is how well I can handle 450 watts, or 550w, or 700w, etc., and how long can I sustain high power in that range of intensity. Ultimately the goal is how well I can handle the requirements of races, and for the types of races I focus on the race results are determined mostly when the intensity level is well above my power at VO2max, i.e. last 2 k's of a criterium, points race sprint laps and attacks, etc.

So whether my VO2max number has gone up 10% or 15% doesn't interest me for more than entertainment. What's more important is how fast I can go when the race outcome is being decided.

This is why my VO2max training intervals aren't soley intended to raise my VO2max, or increase the time I can ride at my VO2max. If that were the case I wouldn't do the intervals much above 150% of LT power (because that's probably the upper limit for the most effective way to increase the VO2max number). By the time I get near peak I'll be using targets around 200% of LT power for the 30/30 and 40/20 on/off intervals because being good in those power ranges is part of what's needed to get the job done. Other guys do this too, and some track races amount to essentially the same kind of training, especially Madisons.

That is what I thought.

There is a time, in one's career, where VO2Max training is aimed at improving the numbers. In this case, I may (as a coach at least) recommend following the more classical way of doing things, and that is to target base, then threshold, then VO2Max and so on.

And there is a time, when VO2Max workouts are aimed a improving particular aspects of racing. In this case, L5 is not as much an aggression for the rider's body. The planning possibilities are kind of endless I guess.

SolarEnergy said:

That is what I thought.

There is a time, in one's career, where VO2Max training is aimed at improving the numbers. In this case, I may (as a coach at least) recommend following the more classical way of doing things, and that is to target base, then threshold, then VO2Max and so on.

You can think of this on a month to month basis but also on a year to year basis.

It's kind of a 3-year plan for me, and for many riders my coach has worked with. Essentially, for each successive year the relative amount of intensity increases. When the rider suddenly appears on the podium at a major event(s) people ask where they came from, but it's a result of this approach.

As my coach says, first we bake the cake, then we add the frosting, and then we put the cherry on top. (It's an Italian cake.)

RapDaddyo said:

At what power (as % of FT) did you do these? What do you think your MP is at 5 mins? Sounds to me as though you are just more fit. I'm not a good one to opine on doing these in January because I'm not persuaded about the whole training cycle theory. I do L4-L7 intervals on every ride, every week, all year. The main thing I vary is total weekly volume, least in December and gradually increasing from now through May.

I don't know, since I was doing them outside without a pm. I can do some on my trainer and get an estimate for power.

frenchyge said:

I'm not sure I'm understanding your statements that you couldn't get your perceived exertion up, but didn't feel like you could go any harder. Could you maybe expand on that?

It was a strange feeling. I was very fresh, and was turning quick lap times. During the interval, basically, it didn't "hurt" like what I have associated with these types of intervals. I was breathing fairly hard, but very little leg burning, drooling, blurry vision, etc. The last few minutes of the interval didn't feel appreciably harder than the first, and the final interval didn't feel especially hard. My theory was perhaps that my FT has rissen so high relative to my threshold that I'm not producing much acidosis during a 5 minute interval? Which had me thinking that I may need a block of v02max work if I am to continue raising threshold.

whoawhoa said:

I did my first true set of v02max work since late november tonight. Despite the fact that I did 6x5 with 2.5 ri (vs. the sessions I was doing, 5x5 with 5 ri) I just couldn't seem to get perceived exertion up. I did them outside on a course I use for the vast majority of my non-trainer intervals, and speed was good, I really didn't feel like I could go any harder.

So should I take anything from this? The last six weeks have been aimed at raising threshold, and my ft was definitely high compared to my 5 minute power even before that. So should I stick in a block of v02max work?

very hard to tell w/o power ww. How do you know your FT was/is a high % of Vo2max w/o a PM? Did you have a lab test?

Normally my 1st hard workout --- even L4 which I've delved into now feels like absolute torture compared to the 'steady drain' feeling of even high tempo work. So I really can't relate ... unless you were tired?? Anyway, a PM would answer it all - perhaps power was at all time highs and to hell with PE 🙂 Or your PE needs recalibration.

rmur

rmur17 said:

very hard to tell w/o power ww. How do you know your FT was/is a high % of Vo2max w/o a PM? Did you have a lab test?

Sorry, I should say that my ft is high relative to my 5 minute power. Using various estimates that back each other up well enough that I trust them (trainer power curve, ac.com estimates). But still, it's more a well thought out suspicion than fact.

rmur17 said:

Normally my 1st hard workout --- even L4 which I've delved into now feels like absolute torture compared to the 'steady drain' feeling of even high tempo work. So I really can't relate ... unless you were tired?? Anyway, a PM would answer it all - perhaps power was at all time highs and to hell with PE 🙂 Or your PE needs recalibration.

rmur

No, I was fresh, rest day the day before. I do intervals 2x a week for 4-6 months of the year at this circuit, and these were the quickest lap times I've ever done on the 5's, despite wind, shorter rest intervals, and baggy clothing due to the cold (I'm not telling you what the temp was, you'd think I was a wuss😄 ).