vo2 phase before FT phase?

postal_bag said:

I was looking through a book by Dave Morris, I think, and it laid out a training plan in which a vo2 max type phase came just before an FT type phase. The FT phase came immediately before the beginning of the race season. What would be the reasoning behind this? Are the vo2 max gains maintained during the FT phase better than if you tried to maintain FT gains through a period of vo2 max work?

Part of the idea is that if FT is a fraction of VO2max, the higher your VO2max, the higher the fraction of it can be (read it again, it kind of makes sense). Since cycling performance is dominated by FT he thinks that it's better to do FT work closer to the season than VO2max work (i.e. letting your VO2max fall some during your FT period will not affect your race results as much as letting your FT drop just prior to race season).

Ultimately though, FT and VO2 max are somewhat independent and raising your VO2max won't have a big effect on your FT until you train your FT specifically.

Personally, I find it difficult to do more than about 4 or 5 weeks of FT in a row before I start kind of plateauing (possibly mental). What I like to do is mix in 4 to 5 weeks of FT work with 3 to 4 weeks of VO2max work to keep things progressing.

postal_bag said:

I was looking through a book by Dave Morris, I think, and it laid out a training plan in which a vo2 max type phase came just before an FT type phase. The FT phase came immediately before the beginning of the race season. What would be the reasoning behind this? Are the vo2 max gains maintained during the FT phase better than if you tried to maintain FT gains through a period of vo2 max work?

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I've heard Morris mentioned before, although I have not read any of his books. I agree with everything that Beerco said about ft being a % of v02max and throwing in v02max focuses to keep ft from plateuing. I don't know if I agree with putting the ft fase last before racing. I was under the impression that v02max could drop quite rapidly without training. Also, in my experience, v02max work helps me peak just before races better than ft work does. Also, a short block of vo2max work tends to raise my threshold significantly within a matter of 1-2 weeks. Not long after that I have to throw in ft work to keep it up. Not sure why that is.

BTW, I think Morris is also a big proponent of block training, which I really like for v02max work.

Is it standard to increase your VO2 intervals by 5 or 10 seconds..currently I'm just doing 4 x 20 sec.......is there a significant increase in performance?

thanks🙂

serpent950 said:

Is it standard to increase your VO2 intervals by 5 or 10 seconds..currently I'm just doing 4 x 20 sec.......is there a significant increase in performance?

thanks🙂

Huh? A V02 interval should be from 3-8 minutes long.

Edit: There's some evidence shorter intervals, around 30 seconds can improve v02max. Check out this recent thread: cyclingforums.comt298451 30 second intervals.htmlOpen ↗

In general, I would go with the 3-8 minuters for v02max work.

whoawhoa said:

Huh? A V02 interval should be from 3-8 minutes long.

Edit: There's some evidence shorter intervals, around 30 seconds can improve v02max. Check out this recent thread: cyclingforums.comt298451 30 second intervals.htmlOpen ↗

In general, I would go with the 3-8 minuters for v02max work.

Isn't vo2 intervals maxium exertion with no regard to MHR?....Lactate Threshold intervals 3 to 8 minutes is great:eek:

serpent950 said:

Isn't vo2 intervals maxium exertion with no regard to MHR?....Lactate Threshold intervals 3 to 8 minutes is great:eek:

Threshold intervals 15-20 minutes usually. Whose coaching schema/training levels do you use?

A 20 second sprint wil probably stress the neuromuscular system, as well as maybe the anaerobic system.

whoawhoa said:

Threshold intervals 15-20 minutes usually. Whose coaching schema/training levels do you use?

A 20 second sprint wil probably stress the neuromuscular system, as well as maybe the anaerobic system.

"Spinervals"......usally a 30 min tempo and include some 4 x 20 sec. VO2 (boost maximum oxygen consumption levels) intervals with 45 sec rest breaks in between....

serpent950 said:

"Spinervals"......usally a 30 min tempo and include some 4 x 20 sec. VO2 (boost maximum oxygen consumption levels) intervals with 45 sec rest breaks in between....

See, there's proof that just because you release a DVD it doesn't mean you have a clue.

VO2 - 3 to 8 min. Threshold 10 to 60min, 30s - Nueromuscular/L6

beerco said:

Part of the idea is that if FT is a fraction of VO2max, the higher your VO2max, the higher the fraction of it can be (read it again, it kind of makes sense). Since cycling performance is dominated by FT he thinks that it's better to do FT work closer to the season than VO2max work (i.e. letting your VO2max fall some during your FT period will not affect your race results as much as letting your FT drop just prior to race season).

Ultimately though, FT and VO2 max are somewhat independent and raising your VO2max won't have a big effect on your FT until you train your FT specifically.

Personally, I find it difficult to do more than about 4 or 5 weeks of FT in a row before I start kind of plateauing (possibly mental). What I like to do is mix in 4 to 5 weeks of FT work with 3 to 4 weeks of VO2max work to keep things progressing.

I re-read the section on this. He suggests early season races after the first week to 10 days of the FT phase. So I guess that would keep you sharp. Also he has you doing leadout intervals before FT intervals for some of the workouts.

beerco said:

See, there's proof that just because you release a DVD it doesn't mean you have a clue.

VO2 - 3 to 8 min. Threshold 10 to 60min, 30s - Nueromuscular/L6

YUP!.....and 8-25 seconds pure ATP sprint......30 sec to perhaps 2 minutes is pure anaerobic interval(if done after completely recovered).

No question the best VO2 intervals are about 5 minutes long.

Interval training (what you guys refer to as VO2 max training) has been found to be the most rapid way to increase VO2max, but even then only by a small %'age, say 5-10% in someone who really exerts themselves. Longer intervals improve an athletes ability to sustain a particular workload at a given lactate level. the biggest killer with lactate is pain. LT training while it does increase LT, which is definately beneficial, is as much about desensitizing the body to the pain caused by lactate as it is to improving LT. Improving LT is more a matter of improving the physiological/biochemical methods by which the body clears lactate. By clearing lactate faster through improve filtering performance ( a function of blood flow through the kidneys, by increased heart rate, contractility, ventricular volume, angiogenesis) you are increasing the Heart Rate at which LT occurs. Other biochemical processes play a part in clearing lactate (TCA cycle etc), and all are improved via increased expression of genes that code for enzymes that participate in these processes.

Long story short; short intervals (30s - 60s) at workloads >100% VO2max improve VO2max in the short-term (this must be supplemented/cycled with increased workloads during normal aerobic training for long-term benefit).

Increasing the length of the interval is more benficial for LT.

As for finding your LT, i haven't read about these theoretical tests using your heart rate and respiratory rate to work it out [or ive forgotten them], but the best way is to have blood samples taken at different workloads ( on an increasing scale] on a stationary cycle until there is a rise above 1.0 [this being the rest value in nearly every physiologically normal male adult]. then keep going until you cant go any harder, and find ur Lmax. In elite athletes this is about 17.0. the average schmoe can get to about 8-10.

FORDGT40 said:

As for finding your LT, i haven't read about these theoretical tests using your heart rate and respiratory rate to work it out [or ive forgotten them], but the best way is to have blood samples taken at different workloads ( on an increasing scale] on a stationary cycle until there is a rise above 1.0 [this being the rest value in nearly every physiologically normal male adult]. then keep going until you cant go any harder, and find ur Lmax. In elite athletes this is about 17.0. the average schmoe can get to about 8-10.

There are various blood lactate levels associated with LT depending on who you ask, many of them between 2mmol/l up to about 4mmol/l.

My question though is why do you want to know your "Lmax"? What do you do with that information? Or do you just like seeing people suffer?

-Warren

FORDGT40 said:

the biggest killer with lactate is pain. LT training while it does increase LT, which is definately beneficial, is as much about desensitizing the body to the pain caused by lactate as it is to improving LT.

Do you really feel lactate pain while training at LT speed?

Training at LT is basically training at the level you are already at. It will show small improvements over time, and is the best routine for long lasting results at a level that is sustainable in the long-term.

As for Lmax, it is mainly a point of interest, and it does hurt a lot! But it also gives an indication of how hard you are working at any given workload. For example i might have a lactate reading of 12mmol at 450W power output, but you might be showing 13 or 14 mmol at the same power output, or alternately say we have the same Lmax [eg 17mmol]. One of us might be working at a higher absolute power output than the other for the same Lmax. It is mainly a scientific thing where the Scientist conducting the study would ask "why at the same Lmax can subject A produce greater power than subject B". Then the scientist would get all scandanavian and start taking muscle biopsies and blood samples etc etc, immediately after a max power session.

PS. I guess you probably wouldnt feel a great deal of discomfort training at LT, what i meant there was actually to do with training at levels well above LT for sustained periods, ie at levels where it DOES hurt. This helps to reduce discomfort at any given Lactate level, making it psychologically easier on the rider.

SolarEnergy said:

Do you really feel lactate pain while training at LT speed?

Quadsweep said:

YUP!.....and 8-25 seconds pure ATP sprint......30 sec to perhaps 2 minutes is pure anaerobic interval(if done after completely recovered).

No question the best VO2 intervals are about 5 minutes long.

Check for my post in the 30/30 thread about this. Sprinter types may do better with a series of 30" on/off for improving their power at VO2max and above.

I'm curious, are you able to ride at your VO2max for 5 minutes times, say, 2-4 intervals in one session? If not, you may want to use somewhat shorter intervals and do more of them so you can do more total time at your desired intensity.

-Warren

FORDGT40 said:

As for Lmax, it is mainly a point of interest, and it does hurt a lot! But it also gives an indication of how hard you are working at any given workload. For example i might have a lactate reading of 12mmol at 450W power output, but you might be showing 13 or 14 mmol at the same power output, or alternately say we have the same Lmax [eg 17mmol]. One of us might be working at a higher absolute power output than the other for the same Lmax. It is mainly a scientific thing where the Scientist conducting the study would ask "why at the same Lmax can subject A produce greater power than subject B". Then the scientist would get all scandanavian and start taking muscle biopsies and blood samples etc etc, immediately after a max power session.

PS. I guess you probably wouldnt feel a great deal of discomfort training at LT, what i meant there was actually to do with training at levels well above LT for sustained periods, ie at levels where it DOES hurt. This helps to reduce discomfort at any given Lactate level, making it psychologically easier on the rider.

Both of your points bring up the idea that some riders, because of genetics and/or training can tolerate higher amounts of lactate (or for longer periods) than other people. I happen to be one of those people it seems, based on some sampling and measurements. Not that I'm particularly good at it, but some people are able to produce relatively high amounts of power in certain ranges above LT and/or stay at relatively high lactate levels for relatively long periods.

Not to be mentioned in the same paragraph is that Lance is someone who is able to handle relatively high levels of lactate for long periods. He does so well with this that his first real coach (when he came to Motorola and won the Worlds) did many tests that verified this. By our usual definitions of LT, Lance kind of distorts or alters those definitions.

-Warren

FORDGT40 said:

Training at LT is basically training at the level you are already at. It will show small improvements over time, and is the best routine for long lasting results at a level that is sustainable in the long-term.

As for Lmax, it is mainly a point of interest, and it does hurt a lot! But it also gives an indication of how hard you are working at any given workload. For example i might have a lactate reading of 12mmol at 450W power output, but you might be showing 13 or 14 mmol at the same power output, or alternately say we have the same Lmax [eg 17mmol]. One of us might be working at a higher absolute power output than the other for the same Lmax. It is mainly a scientific thing where the Scientist conducting the study would ask "why at the same Lmax can subject A produce greater power than subject B". Then the scientist would get all scandanavian and start taking muscle biopsies and blood samples etc etc, immediately after a max power session.

So, LT is where you are now, Lmax is how much work you can do for a given workload, and some people can produce more power at a given lactate concentration than others? Cool. 😎

Quadsweep said:

YUP!.....and 8-25 seconds pure ATP sprint......30 sec to perhaps 2 minutes is pure anaerobic interval(if done after completely recovered).

No question the best VO2 intervals are about 5 minutes long.

I don't mean to pick on you. All sprints and all efforts use ATP. I think what you might be referring to is CP, as in creatine phosphate. Using only CP allows for a sprint of up to about 10-12 seconds. Longer than that and other fuel sources are used (too). Once you go longer than about 30 seconds, even at maximum effort you will be using some aerobic energy sources and by the time you get to 2 minutes you will be getting more of your energy from aerobic sources than from anaerobic sources.

Anaerobic means without oxygen. Hold your breath and see how long you can sprint. :-)

This is important for training because many people think they want to be good at say, kilo races (approximately 65-75 seconds long) or other 1-2 minute efforts like bridging gaps or getting over shortish hillls and they think aerobic training may not be important, but even for a 1-minute effort going as hard as you can you'll still be gettting 40-50% of your energy from aerobic sources, so aerobic training will improve your ability for those efforts/races.

If you know this already, just ignore it, but I see these comments from other people too so maybe they'll get something from it.

-Warren

Frechyge,

Lmax is the maximum lactate that you produce which usually occurs at your highest work rate. LT is a threshold value in relation to a heart rate that coincides with a disproportionate rise in lactate levels. these values are trainable. work rates can be similar at a given lactate level in trained individuals, but a schmoe like me might give a high lactate level at a much lower work rate, that has to do with clearance rates, production rates etc. Its not a simple as "A" plus "B" equals "C". It can be different for all individuals, and the training methods used to develop improvements in these values can also be different for each individual.

Hope that clears that up.
Billy :]

PS. WOW, found this by "GOOGLEing" Lactate Threshold, very cool, detailed and easy to understand explanation
home.hia.nolacthres.htmOpen ↗