First Marathon--now what?

John Derby said:

I ran the Tucson marathon, my first, this past weekend.

Hey did you see Teresa there? (check out her race report under the
topic:
Tucson marathon )

Quoted message said:

My background
is extensive bicycle racing (I was pretty good), and I only devoted
four months to training for this, with no prior running. Thus, survival
was my goal. I used the Higdon beginner program, but had two minor
setbacks and missed two weeks of running out of the four months,
including one during my taper (after the 20 miler). My main problem was
tight hamstrings, which I could not stretch out no matter what I tried.

There have been stretches posted in this group and I have some links in
another old email, I'll try to find it. There are several ways to do
it.

Quoted message said:

Fast forward to the race. I know how to prepare from cycling, and how
to pay attention to my body, so I know I did all of that right. I
finished in just under four hours, and to make that time, I poured it
on toward the end. The strange part is how fast I ran the last portion.
My splits are:

8 mile: 1:37:07 @ 9:09
13.1: 2:05:20 @ 9:34
20 mile: 3:13:38 @ 9:41
26.2: 3:58:51 @ 9:07 (last 6.2 @ ~7:16)

In other words, I ran the last 6.2 really fast, and I know that the
last mile and a half were run much faster than the rest of that stint.

Any chance the mile markers were off at the end? Teresa What do you
think?
She didn't mention anything like that in her report so I guess you can
conclude you ran a nice conservative race. An excellent result for a
first race.

Quoted message said:

So this tells me that I probably could have put more into the rest of
the race. Now I'm left a bit confused about what to do from here, to
train next year. Yes, I intend to rest first ;-)

First, I'm not sure what to do to keep my hamstrings from tensing up.
No matter how much I stretch (and I try not to over extend them) they
cramp up during runs and just all the time during the day. Should I see
a sports doctor?

Maybe they are complaining because they are being used a lot more
running than they are biking? doesn't the movement in biking build up
the calves and quads? (Here's a chance for us both to learn)

Quoted message said:

Second, if I can run the last 6 miles at a 7:16 pace, any idea what
pace I MIGHT have run the rest at?

Well you overall average pace was about 9:07 pace. Going too fast at
the beginning costs more at the end. So if I had that result, I'd
target about 9:10 pace for the first half and see what I had left at
the end. Trying to target under 9:00 might be too soon.

Quoted message said:

Third, I want to run NYC next year, and I want to do as good as
possible. General suggestions for training in the upcoming year?

Any half marathons to use as pacing giude races? More consistant
training might be a big help, but then none of us gets to follow a
training plan all the way thru with out adjustments. 8^)

Quoted message said:

Thanks,
John

You are welcom and I hope that helps.
Ed

BTW, you now also owe us a race report! 8^)

John Derby said:

Second, if I can run the last 6 miles at a 7:16 pace, any idea what
pace I MIGHT have run the rest at?

It means you *probably* could run a half-marathon at that pace (and certainly
could run 10k at that pace!)

So you MIGHT have run 3:30 or so. But then, if you went out at that pace,
you might have crashed and burned. It's really hard to tell, especially with
relatively undertrained beginners.

Quoted message said:

Third, I want to run NYC next year, and I want to do as good as
possible. General suggestions for training in the upcoming year?

Gradually increase mileage. Run some shorter races so you can set goals that
are commensurate with your level of ability.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"John Derby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I ran the Tucson marathon, my first, this past weekend. My background
is extensive bicycle racing (I was pretty good), and I only devoted
four months to training for this, with no prior running. Thus, survival
was my goal. I used the Higdon beginner program, but had two minor
setbacks and missed two weeks of running out of the four months,
including one during my taper (after the 20 miler). My main problem was
tight hamstrings, which I could not stretch out no matter what I tried.

Two thoughts on tight hamstrings. First, biking affects the hamstrings in a
very different way than running. In running, in addition to being the main
engine, "the hamstrings help to control the forward swing of the lower part
of the leg", which is significant see:
http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/archive/hamstring-injuries-1.html
(http://tinyurl.com/bgrcb)

Second, tightness that will not go away with stretching can be a sign that
you ramped up your activity too fast. For you this was only 4 months of
running right up to a marathon. Tightness would be a natural outcome for
such a drastic switch of activity. All the muscles in my legs got
progressively tighter as I walked a fine line right up to and slightly
overtraining for my 50 miler earlier this year.

Quoted message said:

Fast forward to the race. I know how to prepare from cycling, and how
to pay attention to my body, so I know I did all of that right. I
finished in just under four hours, and to make that time, I poured it
on toward the end. The strange part is how fast I ran the last portion.
My splits are:

8 mile: 1:37:07 @ 9:09
13.1: 2:05:20 @ 9:34
20 mile: 3:13:38 @ 9:41
26.2: 3:58:51 @ 9:07 (last 6.2 @ ~7:16)

Great job on your 1st one in such a short training time.

Quoted message said:

In other words, I ran the last 6.2 really fast, and I know that the
last mile and a half were run much faster than the rest of that stint.
So this tells me that I probably could have put more into the rest of
the race. Now I'm left a bit confused about what to do from here, to
train next year. Yes, I intend to rest first ;-)

Are you going to go back to biking primarily until ramping up similarly,
cross-train, or do running-only training from here on out?

Quoted message said:

First, I'm not sure what to do to keep my hamstrings from tensing up.
No matter how much I stretch (and I try not to over extend them) they
cramp up during runs and just all the time during the day. Should I see
a sports doctor?

As alluded to above, they need time to adapt. The forward swing thing is
really what tightens them up IMO, because they're elongating while
controlling the forward swing. You can sometimes feel them getting tighter
at the end of long runs in the forward swings. In biking they can pretty
much just contract only.

I think it's common for bikers who run or switch to running to experience
tight hamstrings. Maybe biking messes up the hamstring's ability to control
the forward swing thing because they're so overloaded with contractions only
for the voluminous hours bikers train for. I always do a gentle/moderate
forward lean static stretch after running or biking. I put a 2x4 block under
the balls of my feet and push my heels down to the floor for a fuller
stretch, and do 1-2 mins several times if necessary until they feel good.

-Tony

Quoted message said:

Second, if I can run the last 6 miles at a 7:16 pace, any idea what
pace I MIGHT have run the rest at?

Third, I want to run NYC next year, and I want to do as good as
possible. General suggestions for training in the upcoming year?

Thanks,
John

"John Derby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In other words, I ran the last 6.2 really fast, and I know that the
last mile and a half were run much faster than the rest of that stint.
So this tells me that I probably could have put more into the rest of
the race. Now I'm left a bit confused about what to do from here, to
train next year.

To finish first feeling stronmg is a feather in cap. Usually One's ego
and pace tables set beginners off too fast. 😉

Quoted message said:

First, I'm not sure what to do to keep my hamstrings from tensing up.
No matter how much I stretch (and I try not to over extend them) they
cramp up during runs and just all the time during the day. Should I
see
a sports doctor?

Any chaance you are under-hydrating and the tensing is reall cramps from
inusfficient fluid/salt?

Quoted message said:

Second, if I can run the last 6 miles at a 7:16 pace, any idea what
pace I MIGHT have run the rest at?

Obvious a little faster but therein lies the [censored] shoot, how much faster
and for the next race you have more physical strength plus some
experience. Try a 1/2 marathon 6-8 weeks before your next marathon and
then come back and ask. We can then resurrect the often discussed 2x1/2
marathon time + X, and what X means. We had a very lively discussion on
this in the past month or so.

-DougF

John Derby said:

(...) My main problem was
tight hamstrings, which I could not stretch out no matter what I tried.

In my experience those damn nuisances have to be attacked from every
possible angle and relentlessly. I've found that I have to do both long
static stretches (such as this one:
http://www.yogacircle.com/athletes/athleted_stretch.html ) and series
of short active stretches (for example this one:
http://www.aistretch.com/exercises.htm ) and that I have to do them
regularly to get any result whatsoever,

I also believe ii is essential to maintain what little suppleness one
has by doing some faster paced running: you can finish a normal run
with a few easy 50-100m strides, do a couple of 10-15s surges every
10-15 minutes into a long run or run a few downhills fast.

Quoted message said:

Second, if I can run the last 6 miles at a 7:16 pace, any idea what
pace I MIGHT have run the rest at?

A very vague idea only, but for the whole distance I'd say: as fast as
7:46 avg pace (or under 3:25) - or not much faster than whatever the
avg pace of your second half was.

One funny thing about marathons is that in the end it is your weakest
part that dictates the pace and another that your weakest point doesn't
necessarily reveal itself to you during a "Marathon Light" such as - no
offense or disrespect intended; been there, done that - your marathon
as you describe it.

Quoted message said:

Third, I want to run NYC next year, and I want to do as good as
possible. General suggestions for training in the upcoming year?

Don't give up cycling. Run as much as you can. Remember that aerobic
endurance is everything. Learn to love uphills. Don't forget that you
are not unbreakable. Once you've settled on a program, put your whole
trust in it. Last but not least, keep stretching those hamstrings.

Anders Lustig

John Derby said:

In other words, I ran the last 6.2 really fast

I believe it, though as others brought up, I wonder how precise the
mileage markers hence your paces really were. On another forum I've
seen bitter complaints about horribly mismarked miles for the half
marathon course. Dunno whether those same ones are used for the full
marathon?

Quoted message said:

hamstrings

You've gotten good advice. I like Anders' suggestions and observations
in particular: the static *and* active stretching as well as at least a
sprinkling of faster paced running.

I'd add: massage. Whether administered by yourself or a skilled
therapist. Or both. I like "The Stick" before every run, rolling on a
rubber ball (some use baseball or football or fancier purpose-built
tools) as needed, maybe a couple times a week, and then receive a
massage when I can guilt-trip my massage therapist wife into it, which
means once or twice a month.

You might want to be careful about extrapolating from the Tucson
Marathon to NYC. Tucson is a down hill course with a 1500 foot
drop in elevation from start to finish. NYC is nothing like this.

As an initial comment, training principles for cycling are generally
applicable to running, but I think it is a mistake to think that how
you pay attention to your body for bike training is the same as you
should for running.

Similar to you, I started with a cycling background before focussing on
running for a while. I certainly did a lot more base run training
leading up to my first marathon, done in 2:54, after which I got my
time down to 2:31. But your body responds very differently to bike
training than run training, since running is more hamstring focussed,
while cycling is quad focussed and is low impact, allowing for greater
training durations.

My suggestion first is to give yourself at least 8 months of base
training before trying your next one. Four months is simply not enough
- even if you've been training 30hours a week on the bike - for the
neuromuscular adaptations required for good running. With a proper
base you should be able to take an hour off your marathon time.

If you're interested in some general philosophical training discussions
from the perspective of a duathlete, please take a peek at my blog at
www.trainharder.com under "training blogs - Hugh Trenchard".

Best of luck in your training.

Hugh Trenchard

John Derby said:

I ran the Tucson marathon, my first, this past weekend. My background
is extensive bicycle racing (I was pretty good), and I only devoted
four months to training for this, with no prior running. Thus, survival
was my goal. I used the Higdon beginner program, but had two minor
setbacks and missed two weeks of running out of the four months,
including one during my taper (after the 20 miler). My main problem was
tight hamstrings, which I could not stretch out no matter what I tried.

Fast forward to the race. I know how to prepare from cycling, and how
to pay attention to my body, so I know I did all of that right. I
finished in just under four hours, and to make that time, I poured it
on toward the end. The strange part is how fast I ran the last portion.
My splits are:

8 mile: 1:37:07 @ 9:09
13.1: 2:05:20 @ 9:34
20 mile: 3:13:38 @ 9:41
26.2: 3:58:51 @ 9:07 (last 6.2 @ ~7:16)

In other words, I ran the last 6.2 really fast, and I know that the
last mile and a half were run much faster than the rest of that stint.
So this tells me that I probably could have put more into the rest of
the race. Now I'm left a bit confused about what to do from here, to
train next year. Yes, I intend to rest first ;-)

First, I'm not sure what to do to keep my hamstrings from tensing up.
No matter how much I stretch (and I try not to over extend them) they
cramp up during runs and just all the time during the day. Should I see
a sports doctor?

Second, if I can run the last 6 miles at a 7:16 pace, any idea what
pace I MIGHT have run the rest at?

Third, I want to run NYC next year, and I want to do as good as
possible. General suggestions for training in the upcoming year?

Thanks,
John

Quoted message said:

As an initial comment, training principles for cycling are generally
applicable to running, but I think it is a mistake to think that how
you pay attention to your body for bike training is the same as you
should for running.

One comical incident I've heard of from a cyclist who approached running with
a cycling mindset is that he went for "an easy 4 mile run". For some reason
or other, he was really sore the next day (-;

So a big difference, perhaps even the main difference is that in running,
the impact means that you can't handle as much volume, and moreover, you
can't handle as much volume in one sitting (for example, doing doubles is
not at all uncommon among runners) Numbers like 30hrs/week are possible on
a bike, basically impossible for a runner. Even Paul Tergat does less than
half that much.

Quoted message said:

My suggestion first is to give yourself at least 8 months of base
training before trying your next one.

NYC gives him about a year. I wouldn't agree about such a long base period.
Motivation is an important part of the big picture, so a combination of a
proportionate amount of speedwork (e.g. a tempo run or long intervals each
week), a gradual and strategic mileage increase, and a goal half-marathon race
in spring (perhaps with an accompanying peaking program for it) would be what
I'd recommend. This both facilitates long-term development, and helps keep one
motivated.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

sms said...

Quoted message said:

You might want to be careful about extrapolating from the Tucson
Marathon to NYC. Tucson is a down hill course with a 1500 foot
drop in elevation from start to finish.

Closer to a 2100 foot drop from start to finish.

Donovan said:

htrenchard said:

My suggestion first is to give yourself at least 8 months of base
training before trying your next one.

I wouldn't agree about such a long base period. Motivation is an
important part of the big picture, so a combination of a
proportionate amount of speedwork (e.g. a tempo run or long intervals
each week), a gradual and strategic mileage increase, and a goal
half-marathon race in spring

If we know much about John the OP and his likes, dislikes, and
motivations him, I'm unaware of it. I bet you're right, Donovan, that
most people would look to do some faster running sooner than 8
months... but it's surely not universal. For all we know, John may be
happy to slowly build a base because either that's how he is wired, or
maybe because he's still gonna do some biking and will get his speed
kicks on two wheels.

Now if John does want to do faster running sooner, he might do as you
suggest with a standard weekly workout, or he might take a more
periodic approach and train a couple of 5-6 month cycles ala Lydiard,
Daniels, et al. This is pretty much my 2006 plan.

You yourself have been enjoying a lot of success for a while now on
what sounds like a not very periodized plan - rather than "x weeks of
base, then x weeks featuring hills/reps, then intervals, then tempos
and sharpening / racing; then rinse and repeat the whole cycle", it
sounds like you've been continuing to improve on the strength of your
favorite workout(s) repeated each week. And I've certainly read about
other people having success at the top levels on what sounds more like
basically the same week or fortnight or month repeated ad infinitum
e.g. Shorter.

Am I right that you're not viewing your training in very much
periodized/seasonal terms? Do you have additional thoughts on
periodized vs. continuous training? Would you perhaps use different
terms or frame the whole discussion differently?

donnie trains for team point races, and track seasons. that's my bet.

Quoted message said:

donnie trains for team point races, and track seasons. that's my bet.

I think Pendejo was asking about how he trains... not why he trains.

--
Ylan

"The universe is not required to be in
perfect harmony with human ambition"
~ Carl Sagan

Quoted message said:

donnie trains for team point races, and track seasons. that's my bet.

Quoted message said:

I think Pendejo was asking about how he trains... not why he trains.

--
Ylan
______

no Ylan....that's _how_ he trains...per what's coming up on his racing
schedule/agenda more or less. the types of races, distances, indoor
outdoor, etc....his racing agenda guides his training.....that's my
bet.

lance said:

donnie trains for team point races, and track seasons. that's my bet.

And so do plenty of folks who follow decisively periodized training
schedules, AFAICT.

I'm really looking for any thoughts Donovan has on the topic, but
hopefully including whether his training is more periodized than I
perceive it, and if it really is more "continuous" than "periodized"
then perhaps whether he now considers rigidly periodic cycles
overrated, or not for everyone, or ...?

Charlie Pendejo said:

Donovan said:

htrenchard said:

My suggestion first is to give yourself at least 8 months of base
training before trying your next one.

I wouldn't agree about such a long base period. Motivation is an
important part of the big picture, so a combination of a
proportionate amount of speedwork (e.g. a tempo run or long intervals
each week), a gradual and strategic mileage increase, and a goal
half-marathon race in spring

If we know much about John the OP and his likes, dislikes, and
motivations him, I'm unaware of it. I bet you're right, Donovan, that
most people would look to do some faster running sooner than 8
months... but it's surely not universal. For all we know, John may be
happy to slowly build a base because either that's how he is wired, or

Maybe, and it might also rain pigs.

My experience has been that beginners like to see themselves progress, and
don't like to be on a schedule that forces them to stay at a slow pace.

Quoted message said:

Now if John does want to do faster running sooner, he might do as you
suggest with a standard weekly workout, or he might take a more
periodic approach and train a couple of 5-6 month cycles ala Lydiard,
Daniels, et al. This is pretty much my 2006 plan.

A periodised approach would also be just fine.

Quoted message said:

You yourself have been enjoying a lot of success for a while now on
what sounds like a not very periodized plan - rather than "x weeks of
base, then x weeks featuring hills/reps, then intervals, then tempos
and sharpening / racing; then rinse and repeat the whole cycle", it
sounds like you've been continuing to improve on the strength of your
favorite workout(s) repeated each week. And I've certainly read about
other people having success at the top levels on what sounds more like
basically the same week or fortnight or month repeated ad infinitum
e.g. Shorter.

Am I right that you're not viewing your training in very much
periodized/seasonal terms? Do you have additional thoughts on
periodized vs. continuous training? Would you perhaps use different
terms or frame the whole discussion differently?

I don't use formal "base", "hill", etc phases any more. I have some idea
about when I want to peak and when I want to rest. The main thing that varies
throughout is the frequency of racing, the quantity of mileage and to a lesser
extent, the type of workout.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Charlie Pendejo said:

lance said:

donnie trains for team point races, and track seasons. that's my bet.

And so do plenty of folks who follow decisively periodized training
schedules, AFAICT.

I'm really looking for any thoughts Donovan has on the topic, but
hopefully including whether his training is more periodized than I
perceive it, and if it really is more "continuous" than "periodized"
then perhaps whether he now considers rigidly periodic cycles
overrated, or not for everyone, or ...?

Different strokes for different folks.

The "typical marathon guy" is well served by periodised training, because
the model is typically that there are one or two goal races per year.

Someone who is peaking for a couple of key racing seasons can also adopt
a periodised approach, the difference is that there is a string of goal
races.

In my case, the team points schedule "wants" me to be reasonably fit
year-round, so that means that I do at least *some* speed work year-round.
But I still like to drop mileage close to goal races, and do some intermediate
"tune up" races approaching the important stuff. I like to get in some really
big mileage several weeks before the goal races. Summer is an especially good
time to focus primarily on getting a lot of miles in -- you won't run a fast
time anyway, and if you pile on the distance in summer, you will run fast in
fall.

This year, I had two main peaks: the indoor track in Feb, and a sequence
consisting of some cross races followed by a 5k and 10k race in fall.

Right now, I'm building up for indoor track again. I'm already doing an indoor
track specific workout each week, as well as some general hard aerobic work
(including those 4 mile races). This is sort of the heavy training phase. As
indoor track approaches, I need to reduce volume so I can be sharper. I think
the volume reduction is probably more important for short stuff than it is for
say 5k-10k.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Charlie Pendejo said:

If we know much about John the OP and his likes, dislikes, and
motivations him, I'm unaware of it. I bet you're right, Donovan, that
most people would look to do some faster running sooner than 8
months... but it's surely not universal. For all we know, John may be
happy to slowly build a base because either that's how he is wired, or
maybe because he's still gonna do some biking and will get his speed
kicks on two wheels.

Well ... one thing I can tell you is that I can handle discipline (I
train hard and smart), and, secondly, that I have a history of setting
high, attainable goals, and, then, beating those goals. But I don't
know much about how good of a runner I can be at this point. I'll
probably never be great, because I'm too stocky. Then again, in cycling
I was a climber, and that made no sense.

As for cycling, I miss it, but I moved from Park City, UT to Columbus,
OH, which is why I stopped cycling and started running four months ago
(too many hicks, not enough road shoulders, zero mountains). Plus, I'm
working on a PhD, and can't put the hours into cycling that I need to
be competitive. Thus, I have switched my focus to running, and I am
excited about it, and I want to get good at it. I'm aware that this
will take some time, and that part of it is trying different things to
see what works and what doesn't. The hard part for me is not knowing,
because in cycling, I know exactly what I can do and what I need to do.
While I cannot know for certain for running (yet), I will be putting
together a tentative plan to build myself up next year, then see what
happens, then hopefully be competitive in another year.

So far I'm getting multiple perspectives, and I appreciate all of them.
So thanks, to you and to all. Keep it coming, please.

John

John Derby said:

Well ... one thing I can tell you is that I can handle discipline (I pull
trains hard, and love getting spanked.)

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