30 second intervals

There is a reference to a study in Asker Jeukendrup's High Performance Cycling. This interval length (along with 4:4) had better improvements in 40k TT time than 1, 2 or 3 minute intervals.

It is your longest sprint, or shortest Anerobic Capacity effort. It is basically a sprint that doesn't end! Suggest 30s,4m30s for complete recovery and ATP refuelling. Do them until your power drops. Start with 6, go to as hight as 12.

This what you're looking for?

RapDaddyo said:

As I read your last post about your preferred races and your race strategy, it occurred to me that you may want to investigate the supramaximal intervals of short duration (e.g., 30s). These have been shown to increase both LT and VO2MAX as well as short-term sprint power. These would seem to help you for the last lap. There is an interesting article on this type of interval training here ausport.gov.auLAUR.pdfOpen ↗.

frenchyge said:

This what you're looking for?

As a word of 'warning' if you read this paper, it may not be possible for people to complete any of these 30-second intervals, depending on how much power they can produce.

Whilst, i haven't read the paper thoroughly, it does appear that the 30-sec intervals are 175% of the peak power output (PPO) obtained in a test similar to the RST MAP test.

However, in this paper, the researchers have used a 30 W/min incremental rate (versus, 15, 20, or 25 W/min) for RST. This would give you a higher PPO/MAP than during the RST test (so, far nothing wrong with that!).

The issue for some riders is that they would not be able to ride at 175% of PPO for any length of time. For e.g., i might be able to manage that intensity for about 10 to 15 secs. On the other hand, i know of world champion elite male pros, who simply cannot ride at that power for even a single second. It therefore, may not be possible for some riders to complete these sessions.

Ric

My coach has me do something similar when gearing up for racing. I usually do 30 sec intervals, but only 30 sec rest in between, 3 to 5 sets of 3 to 4 reps. It's a brutal workout for me. I usually do them at about double my 40k TT power. At least to start. By the end I fade for sure.

The one thing I have noticed about these, is that I always feel amazing the next day.

The more I read responses from Ric, the less I believe what he says. You can't find many of his posts where he doesn't say what is wrong with an idea, or this/that can't work, or LA/CTC Performance book is wrong/misleading.

Have you ever seen a post where he has said what does work in his experience, except 3 min sprint intervals year round to increase VO2 max?

Ric, please help us all and post 5 things that you feel endurance cyclist should do to improve. Thank you.

ric_stern/RST said:

As a word of 'warning' if you read this paper, it may not be possible for people to complete any of these 30-second intervals, depending on how much power they can produce.

Whilst, i haven't read the paper thoroughly, it does appear that the 30-sec intervals are 175% of the peak power output (PPO) obtained in a test similar to the RST MAP test.

However, in this paper, the researchers have used a 30 W/min incremental rate (versus, 15, 20, or 25 W/min) for RST. This would give you a higher PPO/MAP than during the RST test (so, far nothing wrong with that!).

The issue for some riders is that they would not be able to ride at 175% of PPO for any length of time. For e.g., i might be able to manage that intensity for about 10 to 15 secs. On the other hand, i know of world champion elite male pros, who simply cannot ride at that power for even a single second. It therefore, may not be possible for some riders to complete these sessions.

Ric

HammerHead said:

My coach has me do something similar when gearing up for racing. I usually do 30 sec intervals, but only 30 sec rest in between, 3 to 5 sets of 3 to 4 reps. It's a brutal workout for me. I usually do them at about double my 40k TT power. At least to start. By the end I fade for sure.

The one thing I have noticed about these, is that I always feel amazing the next day.

I do these workouts on rollers. They realy kill you 🙂

I don't now if they improve your VO2max but they prepare you for the realy intense parts in a race like sprinting or climbing short hills.

blkhotrod said:

Have you ever seen a post where he has said what does work in his experience, except 3 min sprint intervals year round to increase VO2 max?

Sure, I've found Ric's advice (posts on this forum, as well as his cyclingnews.com article) to be very helpful, either as tips or as research-based support for de-bunking cycling 'myths.'

I won't try to put words in his mouth, but I would certainly understand if he chose to reserve his best coaching tips for the riders who pay for his coaching services (I'm not personally one of those people, btw). As far as his efforts toward 'keeping things in line' on this forum, I think that helps keep the quality of the advice on this forum fairly high in most cases, and if that's how he saw his role as a moderator here, then I would certainly understand that as well.

The quantity of his posts has decreased over the past couple months, but I won't speculate whether that's due to specific circumstances on his part, or whether the other posters seem to be handling the discussions competently on their own without his input.

blkhotrod said:

The more I read responses from Ric, the less I believe what he says. You can't find many of his posts where he doesn't say what is wrong with an idea, or this/that can't work, or LA/CTC Performance book is wrong/misleading.

Have you ever seen a post where he has said what does work in his experience, except 3 min sprint intervals year round to increase VO2 max?

Ric, please help us all and post 5 things that you feel endurance cyclist should do to improve. Thank you.

I don't think he ever has or ever would say that only 3 min intervals is the way to improve vo2max. I know I've read that he suggests intervals from 3-8 minutes as the best way to improve v02max.

And yes, he says a lot of stuff is wrong or misleading, but every time he seems to have the bulk of evidence, as well as common sense, on his side.

blkhotrod said:

The more I read responses from Ric, the less I believe what he says. You can't find many of his posts where he doesn't say what is wrong with an idea, or this/that can't work, or LA/CTC Performance book is wrong/misleading.

Have you ever seen a post where he has said what does work in his experience, except 3 min sprint intervals year round to increase VO2 max?

Ric, please help us all and post 5 things that you feel endurance cyclist should do to improve. Thank you.

Simply, I was stating that the training that was quoted in the linked article isn't possible to complete for some cyclists. This is important to note, because those who are unable to do it maybe unduly concerned, or hurt themself in the process.

I can't specifically recall a post I have made suggesting that 3-min sprint intervals (which wouldn't actually be sprints) should be used to increase VO2 max.

Five things a cyclist should do to improve are, in no particular order

1) Carefully plan their training (or have someone plan it for them)

2) Be consistent in their training (e.g., it's better to train regularly rather than sporadically)

3) Set goals that are SMART (or get someone to help them set SMART goals)

4) Eat well (good nutrition)

5) Get the required rest that is needed to allow yourself to train to the best of your ability within the timeframe and constraints that you have in your life

Ric

frenchyge said:

Sure, I've found Ric's advice (posts on this forum, as well as his cyclingnews.com article) to be very helpful, either as tips or as research-based support for de-bunking cycling 'myths.'

Thanks. Glad myself and the other RST coaches can help

Quoted post said:

I won't try to put words in his mouth, but I would certainly understand if he chose to reserve his best coaching tips for the riders who pay for his coaching services (I'm not personally one of those people, btw). As far as his efforts toward 'keeping things in line' on this forum, I think that helps keep the quality of the advice on this forum fairly high in most cases, and if that's how he saw his role as a moderator here, then I would certainly understand that as well.

This website/forum, is a great resource for cyclists that the RST Coaches and some other great people help to maintain. I think it's important to keep the quality high (which is one reason why it's such a great resource).

Quoted post said:

The quantity of his posts has decreased over the past couple months, but I won't speculate whether that's due to specific circumstances on his part, or whether the other posters seem to be handling the discussions competently on their own without his input.

It goes in cycles -- my post count has decreased a little recently, but that's due to being very busy. It's also because we have some other great people helping out here. However, i do pop in here at least once a day and try to respond to something that is important (e.g., this thread).

Cheers
Ric

whoawhoa said:

I don't think he ever has or ever would say that only 3 min intervals is the way to improve vo2max. I know I've read that he suggests intervals from 3-8 minutes as the best way to improve v02max.

spot on :-). although to keep things on track with this thread, i did some nice 30 sec on/30 sec off intervals yesterday, which were around ~100 - 110% of MAP.

Quoted post said:

And yes, he says a lot of stuff is wrong or misleading, but every time he seems to have the bulk of evidence, as well as common sense, on his side.

Busting the myths...

ric

Couple of articles you might find interesting:

pponline.co.uk0896.htmOpen ↗

pponline.co.uk0297.htmOpen ↗

These seem to give off slightly different messages but the same general idea. Also they are written for runners but can easily be done by cyclist by replacing vVO2 max with MAP.

[quote="ric_stern/RST"]As a word of 'warning' if you read this paper, it may not be possible for people to complete any of these 30-second intervals, depending on how much power they can produce.

Whilst, i haven't read the paper thoroughly, it does appear that the 30-sec intervals are 175% of the peak power output (PPO) obtained in a test similar to the RST MAP test.

Funny....I was going to comment that the more I read from Ric, the smarter he seems......

I fall squarely in that category. According to the test protocol, my PPOX1.75 is 665W. My max 30 sec. effort for all of last year was 580W....

So, the big question: Obviously, the 30 second power needs help, and I found the study pretty interesting--so do you think that the intervals would have the same effect if they were simply done at may 30 second power?? I'll probably do them anyway, even if they don't help pVo2, since I'm guessing that they'll help my anaerobic power. As an aside, I'll say that I was previously doing AC intervals at 1:50-2:00 (due to a 2 minute hill being near my house). It ends up not helping short (30-60 sec.) power at all, at least for me. What they seem to really help is my pVo2 power.
Hence, these 30 second intervals are of great appeal to me--but I'm subbing one of my vo2 workouts a week with this workout.

Any thoughts??

Thanks!

FWIW, it sounds like this is the study Asker might be referring to:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=10331896

and by extension:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=12439086

It's worth bearing in mind that PPO is determined slightly differently to MAP, and would be a fair bit lower.

However, I wonder if what the OP was initially hinting at might have been this kind of thing:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=11354523

L.

blkhotrod said:

The more I read responses from Ric, the less I believe what he says. You can't find many of his posts where he doesn't say what is wrong with an idea, or this/that can't work,

That might be because cycling is rife with myths with no scientific credibility.

blkhotrod said:

or LA/CTC Performance book is wrong/misleading.

Well there you go then!😉

L.

30 second intervals are way too short to stress your O2 delivery system. Even if you go hard, O2 debt will acumulate . O2 delivery will continue to rise for the first 2 minutes of a hard interval. So if you stop your interval at 30 seconds, you are just begining to stimiulate O2 delivery. Rather, you will develop the ability to acumulate O2 debt (which is a good thing). But not O2 delivery.

[quote="biker-linz"]That might be because cycling is rife with myths with no scientific credibility.

And the only way to determine which are myths and which really do some good is to try them out. My guess is that all of the nay-sayers (and you know who I mean) haven't ridden at an elite level in many years or if at all. Younger or newer riders would blow the 30 sec interval workout idea out the window after reading this post. I have done 20x 30-45 sec intervals both on the road and on an indoor trainer, and if done right (proper gear, 85-95 cadence, stop when the quads scream, 2 min spin recovery) I think they do help me. Most of us do enough 3 to 30 minutes intervals year around, mixing the shorter interval workouts a good mix.

A similiar concept has been popular among the worlds top marathoners since Pavao Nurmi's gold medals in the 30's. Repeat 400m intervals (20x 400m with a 100m jog). These 400m sprints are about 1/100 of a marathon........30 secs on the bike are about 1/100 of a 40k TT.

blkhotrod said:

Younger or newer riders would blow the 30 sec interval workout idea out the window after reading this post.

Not the ones who actually read and were smart enough to comprehend Ric's post. He didn't make any judgements about the effectiveness of the training routine, he just stated that some people probably wouldn't be physically capable of even performing the exercise routine in the study.

The rest of the newbies may blow it out the window after reading Ric's post, or they may blow it out after reading the study which concludes that the benefits were somewhat below those of a traditional HIT routine. If they only spend enough time to skim and misunderstand Ric's post, then they still come out time ahead by following his previous advice of performing 3-8 min intervals at 70-85% of MAP to improve VO2max, as confirmed by the study.

blkhotrod said:

I have done 20x 30-45 sec intervals both on the road and on an indoor trainer, and if done right (proper gear, 85-95 cadence, stop when the quads scream, 2 min spin recovery) I think they do help me.

Sure they help, the study confirms that. But do you want to be one of the guys in Group 3 (doing the 30s intervals) while all your competitors are following the longer HIT routines of Groups 1 & 2, and realizing greater benefits? Is that what you'd advise for the newbies reading this?

frenchyge said:

But do you want to be one of the guys in Group 3 (doing the 30s intervals) while all your competitors are following the longer HIT routines of Groups 1 & 2, and realizing greater benefits? Is that what you'd advise for the newbies reading this?

All I'm saying is that 30 sec intervals seem to have a place in a portfolio of interval training which is mainly 3-30 minutes intervals. If you can take doing 3-8 min intervals all year round and be a Group 1/2, great.