Doping in Cycling · Public discussion

EPO alternative?

Started by zaskar · · Last activity · 15 posts · 9,658 views

This thread is locked and is currently read-only.

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
Doping in Cycling
Published
5 November 2005
Last activity
21 June 2006
Original author
zaskar
Posts
15
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
9,658
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 1–15 of 15
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. Sodium phosphate, anyone here ever load on this stuff? if so what was your experience. here is some info i found on it, please share your thoughts.

    Studies from various laboratories have repeatedly shown that phosphate supplementation raises blood levels of 2,3 - diphosphoglycerate (2,3 - DPG), the enzyme that deposits oxygen from haemoglobin into muscle cells (Farber M, et al. J Lab Clin Med 1984;104:166-175. CADE R et al. Med Sci Sports Exer 1984;16:263-268. STEWART I, McNAUGHTON L Res Quart 1990;61:80-84). Phosphate is a far safer but effective alternative to erythropoietin (EPO) - the real heart stopper. Slightly recapping, all three energy systems, ATP-CP, Lactic Acid and Oxygen are improved. To what extent the following studies will indicate.

    DRAMATIC IMPROVEMENTS IN POWER AND ENDURANCE WITH LACTIC ACID BUFFERS

    WITH LESS PERCEIVED EFFORT

    Dr Robert Cade and his group at the Department of Medicine of the University of Florida in 1984 ran a well controlled study (double blind, placebo, crossover design). Ten highly trained distance runners consumed either 1 gram of sodium phosphate four times daily or a placebo for three days. They then ran them on a treadmill to exhaustion. During the phosphate loading trial, lactic acid levels were lower, 2,3 -DPG levels were higher, VO2 max increased by 6-12%, and subjects ran 3-9 minutes longer. (Cade R, et al Med Sci Sports Exer 1984;16:263-268).

    Other research findings from the Florida physiology laboratory suggest that phosphate salts will reduce the perceived psychological stress as measured by RPE (Rating of Perceived Exertion), of riding a bicycle for 3 hours at 75 to 80 percent VO2 max. Physiological measurements during this study suggested that increases in 2,3 DPG improved the release of oxygen from the Red Blood Cells and thus reduced the workload of the heart. The findings from the Florida laboratory strongly support an ergogenic effect of phosphate salts, and the lead investigator in these studies has been quoted as saying that ‘phosphate salts do allow for better performance’.

    Closer to home, Dr Ian Stewart and his colleagues at the Tasmanian Institute of Technology did a study of highly trained cyclists, giving them 3.6 grams of sodium phosphate a day or a placebo, for three days before a maximum effort on the ergometer bicycle. Results showed that phosphate loading reduced lactic acid accumulation, increased 2,3 - DPG production during exercise, increased VO2 max by 11%, and increased time to exhaustion by 20% (Stewart I, McNaughton L Res Quart 1990;61:80-84).

    One of the most recent and best studies (KREIDER RB, et al Int J Sports Nutr 1992;2:20-47) which tested both anaerobic and endurance exercise gave trained cyclists 4 grams of sodium phosphate per day or a placebo, for 3 days prior to a maximal exercise test and a 40km time trial on the ergometer bicycle.

    During the anaerobic phosphate trials, maximal power output increased by 17%. As Dr Michael Colgin points out in his excellent book OPTIMUM SPORTS NUTRITION, that’s the equivalent to adding 51 lbs to a 300 lb maximum bench press! During the aerobic phosphate trials, time for the 40km ride was reduced by 3.5 minutes. That’s big. Despite some contrasting findings in other studies, there is no doubt in my mind that phosphate works big time. I have personally confirmed similar results on a female olympic level sprinter over 400 and 800 metre distances.

    Sodium phosphate has been used in most studies but potassium phosphate works too. With the high level of sodium added to our food and the big losses of potassium in food processing, potassium phosphate would be a lot healthier. But don’t use calcium phosphate. Two studies that have tried calcium phosphate found no effect at all (Bradel D, et al J Appl Physio 1988;65:1821-1826. MANNIX E, et al Med Sci Sports Exer 1990;22:341-347).

  2. zaskar said:

    Sodium phosphate, anyone here ever load on this stuff? if so what was your experience. here is some info i found on it, please share your thoughts.

    Studies from various laboratories have repeatedly shown that phosphate supplementation raises blood levels of 2,3 - diphosphoglycerate (2,3 - DPG), the enzyme that deposits oxygen from haemoglobin into muscle cells (Farber M, et al. J Lab Clin Med 1984;104:166-175. CADE R et al. Med Sci Sports Exer 1984;16:263-268. STEWART I, McNAUGHTON L Res Quart 1990;61:80-84). Phosphate is a far safer but effective alternative to erythropoietin (EPO) - the real heart stopper. Slightly recapping, all three energy systems, ATP-CP, Lactic Acid and Oxygen are improved. To what extent the following studies will indicate.

    DRAMATIC IMPROVEMENTS IN POWER AND ENDURANCE WITH LACTIC ACID BUFFERS

    WITH LESS PERCEIVED EFFORT

    Dr Robert Cade and his group at the Department of Medicine of the University of Florida in 1984 ran a well controlled study (double blind, placebo, crossover design). Ten highly trained distance runners consumed either 1 gram of sodium phosphate four times daily or a placebo for three days. They then ran them on a treadmill to exhaustion. During the phosphate loading trial, lactic acid levels were lower, 2,3 -DPG levels were higher, VO2 max increased by 6-12%, and subjects ran 3-9 minutes longer. (Cade R, et al Med Sci Sports Exer 1984;16:263-268).

    Other research findings from the Florida physiology laboratory suggest that phosphate salts will reduce the perceived psychological stress as measured by RPE (Rating of Perceived Exertion), of riding a bicycle for 3 hours at 75 to 80 percent VO2 max. Physiological measurements during this study suggested that increases in 2,3 DPG improved the release of oxygen from the Red Blood Cells and thus reduced the workload of the heart. The findings from the Florida laboratory strongly support an ergogenic effect of phosphate salts, and the lead investigator in these studies has been quoted as saying that ‘phosphate salts do allow for better performance’.

    Closer to home, Dr Ian Stewart and his colleagues at the Tasmanian Institute of Technology did a study of highly trained cyclists, giving them 3.6 grams of sodium phosphate a day or a placebo, for three days before a maximum effort on the ergometer bicycle. Results showed that phosphate loading reduced lactic acid accumulation, increased 2,3 - DPG production during exercise, increased VO2 max by 11%, and increased time to exhaustion by 20% (Stewart I, McNaughton L Res Quart 1990;61:80-84).

    One of the most recent and best studies (KREIDER RB, et al Int J Sports Nutr 1992;2:20-47) which tested both anaerobic and endurance exercise gave trained cyclists 4 grams of sodium phosphate per day or a placebo, for 3 days prior to a maximal exercise test and a 40km time trial on the ergometer bicycle.

    During the anaerobic phosphate trials, maximal power output increased by 17%. As Dr Michael Colgin points out in his excellent book OPTIMUM SPORTS NUTRITION, that’s the equivalent to adding 51 lbs to a 300 lb maximum bench press! During the aerobic phosphate trials, time for the 40km ride was reduced by 3.5 minutes. That’s big. Despite some contrasting findings in other studies, there is no doubt in my mind that phosphate works big time. I have personally confirmed similar results on a female olympic level sprinter over 400 and 800 metre distances.

    Sodium phosphate has been used in most studies but potassium phosphate works too. With the high level of sodium added to our food and the big losses of potassium in food processing, potassium phosphate would be a lot healthier. But don’t use calcium phosphate. Two studies that have tried calcium phosphate found no effect at all (Bradel D, et al J Appl Physio 1988;65:1821-1826. MANNIX E, et al Med Sci Sports Exer 1990;22:341-347).

    is supplementing with sodium or potassium phosphate legal. they might have a real hard time outlawing it, because phsophate ion is esssential to life. so, like with vitamin c or something, it might be really hard to limit and certainly awfully hard to test for.

    calcium phosphate is what bones are made of. so all calcium phosphate goes straight to building up your bones, it doesn't give any free phosphate ion at all.

  3. garnetstar said:

    is supplementing with sodium or potassium phosphate legal. they might have a real hard time outlawing it, because phsophate ion is esssential to life. so, like with vitamin c or something, it might be really hard to limit and certainly awfully hard to test for.

    calcium phosphate is what bones are made of. so all calcium phosphate goes straight to building up your bones, it doesn't give any free phosphate ion at all.

    Yes it is legal, i bought some from E-Caps called Race Day Boost

  4. zaskar said:

    Yes it is legal, i bought some from E-Caps called Race Day Boost

    go for it. let us know if it boosts your race day.

    and, so far as i know, phosphate ion isn't toxic. it is water-soluble, so any excess should wash out like with vitamin c, and not build up to toxic levels like with fat-soluble vitamins like a.

    but, don't bet your life on my word, please. ask a doctor. thanks.

  5. you should perhaps reconsider using the potassium salt.

    high potassium levels stop the heart. that is the fatal drug that they use in executions by lethal injection, potassium chloride.

    i have no idea what blood level is fatal, or if you could achieve this level by massive oral ingestion, or worse--injection, but watch out.

    high sodium blood levels may be bad for you, but high potassium levels are always fatal, so.....

    just thought that all of you should know this.

  6. garnetstar said:

    you should perhaps reconsider using the potassium salt.

    high potassium levels stop the heart. that is the fatal drug that they use in executions by lethal injection, potassium chloride.

    i have no idea what blood level is fatal, or if you could achieve this level by massive oral ingestion, or worse--injection, but watch out.

    high sodium blood levels may be bad for you, but high potassium levels are always fatal, so.....

    just thought that all of you should know this.

    Im gonna use Sodium phosphate, why should i worry about potassium levels?

  7. zaskar said:

    Im gonna use Sodium phosphate, why should i worry about potassium levels?

    because in your first post, you stated that using the potassium salt might be healthier. that may be incorrect. if anyone decides to try potassium phosphate for that reason, they should know that it's possible to get too high a potassium level.

    then they can research it, find out what level is ok, make a decision about whether they want to use sodium or potassium, and not drop dead if they go for the potassium alternative.

    it's called 'informed decision making' and 'protecting one's health.'

  8. garnetstar said:

    because in your first post, you stated that using the potassium salt might be healthier. it's called 'informed decision making' and 'protecting one's health.'

    I still can't see where i mentioned potasium salt.

  9. here it is----

    zaskar said:

    Sodium phosphate has been used in most studies but potassium phosphate works too. With the high level of sodium added to our food and the big losses of potassium in food processing, potassium phosphate would be a lot healthier. But don’t use calcium phosphate. Two studies that have tried calcium phosphate found no effect at all (Bradel D, et al J Appl Physio 1988;65:1821-1826. MANNIX E, et al Med Sci Sports Exer 1990;22:341-347).

  10. Potasium citrate is the best IMO. No stomach problems w/this.

  11. It might be a good idea to stay close to the house when you first try it.

    According to drugs.com:
    "What is sodium biphosphate and sodium phosphate?

    • Sodium biphosphate and sodium phosphate are forms of phosphorus, which is a naturally occurring substance that is important in every cell in the body.
    • Sodium biphosphate and sodium phosphate is used to treat constipation and to clean the bowel before surgery, x-rays, endoscopy, or other intestinal procedures. Sodium biphosphate and sodium phosphate enemas are also used for general postoperative care and to help relieve fecal or barium impaction." :eek:

    http://www.drugs.com/MTM/sodium_biphosphate_and_sodium_phosphate.html

  12. tas1978 said:

    It might be a good idea to stay close to the house when you first try it.

    According to drugs.com:
    "What is sodium biphosphate and sodium phosphate?

    • Sodium biphosphate and sodium phosphate are forms of phosphorus, which is a naturally occurring substance that is important in every cell in the body.
    • Sodium biphosphate and sodium phosphate is used to treat constipation and to clean the bowel before surgery, x-rays, endoscopy, or other intestinal procedures. Sodium biphosphate and sodium phosphate enemas are also used for general postoperative care and to help relieve fecal or barium impaction." :eek:

    http://www.drugs.com/MTM/sodium_biphosphate_and_sodium_phosphate.html

    Here is my follow up,

    LoL that's funny. if i would have known that i would not have done it. i had no side affects from it all and no positive results. i cramped up near the end of the race, wich i had not done in a long time. i think the cause of the cramping was due to a poor taper. the best bang i have is from caffiene.after 2 hours(onbike) i take 100mg in pill form and come alive. i feel as if i just got on the bike, become motovated, and full of energy, and mash the gears. i decided to try it a few times before the race but took it before training rides and to much of it. perhaps S_PH works good for others, just like anything you gotta find what works best for you.

  13. zaskar said:

    I still can't see where i mentioned potasium salt.


    Sodium phosphate has been used in most studies but potassium phosphate works too. With the high level of sodium added to our food and the big losses of potassium in food processing, potassium phosphate would be a lot healthier. But don’t use calcium phosphate. Two studies that have tried calcium phosphate found no effect at all (Bradel D, et al J Appl Physio 1988;65:1821-1826. MANNIX E, et al Med Sci Sports Exer 1990;22:341-347).

    Hmm, you wrere saying?

  14. Interesting results re the phosphate, Zaskar. Maybe you didn't take enough to achieve the, umm, undesirable side effect.🙂

    As a tangent: is caffeine a banned substance for you bike racers? I read that one of the drugs that Saiz was charged with supplying to cyclists was caffeine.

    Huh? Thought it was legal? Can they ban racers for, like, drinking too much coffee?🙂

  15. Phosphate loading is in no way a substitute for EPO. It's primarily been used and is most effective in short events like track, and at the levels required for significant buffering benefit tends to cause "digestive disturbances".

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.