weight and running

Dred said:

i've been running for quite a while, i'm 37 and i'm kinda still getting
better, but i'm not getting any thinner. i'm not heavy mind you, but i
wonder how much faster i could get and if my joints would feel relief
if i dropped some weight. i'm currenty 5'8" and around 148-150, BMI in
the healthy range of 22 something. does anyone think i'd be much better
off if i dropped down to 140?

I've done similar myself. I was 160lb at 5'11", dropped to about 148lb. So
that means my BMI went from 22.x to 20.x -- similar to what you're planning.
I wasn't fat before dropping weight --

Me at 160

http://www.pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/running/images/armory_04.jpg

at 150

http://www.pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/running/images/club_champs_05.jpg

It made a hell of a difference. Here are some of my pre and post weight loss
PRs. I haven't included any that were very "soft".

PRs @160lb @148lb

5k: 17:25 16:50
10k: 36:30 34:33
5k cross: 18:26 17:46

Quoted message said:

i heard once that the best runners have a weight of 2 lbs. per inch of
height. that would be 136 for me. sounds way too light.

I think BMI is a better metric than raw weight to height.

You can take a look at weights and heights of top runners on various websites
like usatf.org, and some marathon preview websites.

I think a BMI of about 20 is fairly typical. There are some guys who are much
thinner than that, e.g. Paul Tergat and Alan Culpepper are about 130lb at
6 foot, but these guys are quite exceptional -- they have tiny joints and almost
elongated physiques. Many of the shorter runners like Khanouchi and Gebrselassie
are about 130lb and shorter (5'6"😉

Most of the American elites are a bit bigger -- somewhere in the 140s would be
fairly typical. Alan Webb is about 145lb. So he's about the same weight as me
but a bit shorter.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

thank you very much. only another runner could answer that question.
everyone i work with would think i'm nuts. now, the final question..
what did you do to drop the weight? i'm thinking of just trying to make
a slight change to what i eat ie: no more salty snacks and no more than
6 beers per week. maybe lose a pound a week.

one more thing...
i noticed at your home page that you teach programming I. amazing
coincidence. i teach java and sql to high school students.

Dred said:

what did you do to drop the weight? i'm thinking of just trying to make
a slight change to what i eat ie: no more salty snacks and no more than
6 beers per week. maybe lose a pound a week.

Donovan was probably more rigorous than your plan or my reality. He'll
surely have a good answer for you.

I got down to about 148 (at 5' 9"😉 last season, and was stuck at 148
for quite a while this year before eventually dropping to 143 (I
measured 140 one morning, but must have been dehydrated, very
uncharacteristic for me). That's just five pounds but they were fairly
stubborn ones.

My flippant but largely true answer is: "a couple bouts of food
poisoning to drop the weight, then mileage (220/mo for last four) and
just a little discipline to keep it off". Normally restaurant food =
bad for weight loss, but it comes in handy when you're looking for food
poisoning.

Surely most of that weight would've eventually come off anyhow. But
not to the tune of a pound a week, for me, which I suspect is also more
than you're looking at with changes as small as attending to your
snacks and beers - unless you're going way overboard with either.

One cornerstone for me is keeping my sugar, starch, and flour carbs
fairly minimal - except shortly before, during, and a few hours after
running. We're not talking Atkins anti-bread zealotry, but a fair
degree of moderation and consistency and restraint from saying "I ran
30/50/70 miles this week, I can have X if I want". You can, sometimes,
but not every time.

My approach is informed largely by the Zone diet and Tony S's
observations here. Fruit & veggie carbs = good; bread or rice or
noodles or potatoes or sweets = small portions and/or to refuel
before/during/after a run and/or occasional treats. Helps not only
with weight, but with blood sugar or whatever it is that keeps my
energy levels relatively consistent throughout the day, not peaks and
valleys. e.g in the afternoon, black tea with just one or two
teaspoons of sugar will have me crashing a bit afterwards, but
unsweetened green tea, despite the lower caffeine, gives me a longer
steadier boost.

My intention is to include a somewhat higher % of carbs, though,
starting today because of Sunday's marathon.

Another observation: many weekends my weight would pop up 3-4 pounds
and take a couple or three days to come back down. This despite
burning fat and glycogen on Sunday long runs. I'm pretty certain this
goes with eating multiple restaurant meals in a short span - I don't
think it's primarily the calories, it's that most restaurant food is
saltier than what we cook at home, which causes water retention, which
I then [censored] away over 48-72 hours.

As long as I'm rambling about food... there's this really good
independent cookie store two blocks south of my workplace. I mostly
shun them - they'd be a very convenient and tasty way to help me put
on a quick 20 pounds should the need ever arise - but twice this year
had either a whole or a half of their obscenely gigantic oatmeal-raisin
cookie in the afternoon then went on to have an exceptional tempo run
hours later those evenings. I think I'm going to buy one of these bad
boys tomorrow with intent to make it Sunday morning's pre-race
breakfast.

Anyhow: good luck whatever you try.

Pendejo, hoping to get to the NYCM expo in time to meet Deena this
afternoon

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Me at 160

http://www.pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/running/images/armory_04.jpg

at 150

http://www.pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/running/images/club_champs_05.jpg

It's just incredible to me, that someone this ugly and goofy, would
post his pic on the web.

Dred said:

thank you very much. only another runner could answer that question.
everyone i work with would think i'm nuts. now, the final question..
what did you do to drop the weight? i'm thinking of just trying to make
a slight change to what i eat ie: no more salty snacks and no more than
6 beers per week. maybe lose a pound a week.

For me, it was simply "eat less", though it also helped that I was running a lot
of miles.

All about portion control. I started using smaller bowls and food containers.
You can always get another serve if you're hungry but when you take a smaller
serve each time, you're more likely to maintain a lower intake. So the basic
idea was to take several small serves of food each day and eat just above the
hunger threshold. You should never feel hungry (you're likely to overeat if you
get too hungry), but you should eat minimal portions that serve that end.

Instead of avoiding snacks, I'd recommend paying careful attention to how many
calories are in your "snacks". Don't eat something that's a meal in terms of
calories and count it as a snack. The problem with avoiding snacks is that
you're more likely to get hungry (which should be avoided at all costs) and
overeat at meal times.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dred said:

thank you very much. only another runner could answer that question.
everyone i work with would think i'm nuts. now, the final question..
what did you do to drop the weight? i'm thinking of just trying to make
a slight change to what i eat ie: no more salty snacks and no more than
6 beers per week. maybe lose a pound a week.

For me, it was simply "eat less", though it also helped that I was running
a lot
of miles.

For me, the key is to keep my schedule busy (not necessarily high
stress, but avoid spending idle time around places that promote snacking -
like the living room). Also discipline myself to eat at mealtimes, and to
be as consistent as possible. If I snack often, my stomach growls and begs
for snacks constantly. If I stick to meals, my stomach lays quiet until
mealtime. An empty stomach does not mean you need to eat, and it does not
mean you must endure a hungry feeling. The key is a consistent schedule for
about 3 weeks, and your body will get with it.

Quoted message said:

All about portion control. I started using smaller bowls and food
containers.
You can always get another serve if you're hungry but when you take a
smaller
serve each time, you're more likely to maintain a lower intake. So the
basic
idea was to take several small serves of food each day and eat just above
the
hunger threshold. You should never feel hungry (you're likely to overeat
if you
get too hungry), but you should eat minimal portions that serve that end.

Instead of avoiding snacks, I'd recommend paying careful attention to how
many
calories are in your "snacks". Don't eat something that's a meal in terms
of
calories and count it as a snack.

My solution is to ask myself two questions:

1) Am I feeling an urge to snack out of boredom? (If yes, find something to
occupy myself - in fact cleaning is a great boredom-breaker - it helps your
self-esteem, and avoids food cravings). In many cases, idle hands are the
root cause.

2) Do I really crave the particular snack I habitually reach for? If I
really want BBQ chips, I eat them. But if I have simple munchies, I've
found that celery hearts make a great substitute and leave me feeling better
afterward rather than worse. The trick is to have filling, lower-calorie
options handy. Likewise, if I want to crack a beer, in many cases, a glass
of water is really enough.

Also, like Donovan said, smaller containers work very well. I suggest
to never eat directly from the package - if I dump a serving into a bowl and
carry it away from the kitchen, I'm much less likely to go back and refill
it than when I have the whole bag opened in front of me.

Quoted message said:

The problem with avoiding snacks is that
you're more likely to get hungry (which should be avoided at all costs)
and
overeat at meal times.

Like I said, a few weeks of discipline and consistent meals (in size and
timing) will break your body of the hunger habit.

Dave

Charlie Pendejo said:

My intention is to include a somewhat higher % of carbs, though,
starting today because of Sunday's marathon.

Potato and Carrot Puree with Mushroom and Tomato Salpicon

1 kg potatoes, 4 large carrots, half a tsp ground coriander, 1 tbs of
hacked marjoram, half a litre vegetable stock, salt, pepper.
Peel and slice potatoes and carrots, cook with coriander and salt in
the stock - mash with a stick mixer - blend in marjoram - add salt and
pepper.

400g mushrooms (champignon), 6 ripe tomatoes, 1 bunch basil, 1 onion, 2
garlic cloves, 1 tbs olive oil, salt, pepper.
Sautee quartered mushrooms, diced tomatoes and onion, hacked garlic
cloves in olive oil - add salt and pepper - 5 minutes - add stemmed
basil leaves - serve with the puree.

Banana and Honeydew Melon Dessert with a Compote of Apples and Raisins

2 bananas, 1 honeydew melon, 1 lemon, 2 tbs honey, 2 apples, 100gr
raisins, 0.1 l white wine.

Marinate peeled and diced apples with juice of 1/2 lemon - add 1 tbs
honey, raisins and whitewine and stew for 15 minutes - marinate peeled
and sliced bananas and melon with juice of 1/2 lemon and 1 tbs honey -
mix into cooled compote.

Sorry about the metric measures. Recipe serving is possibly on the
large size for one carboloader and one petite lady, but the leftovers
will be quite edible, too, for the aforementioned.

Pasta is fine, but (1) it has less carbs than many in the above recipe,
(2) it doesn't have the minerals (calium, magnesium, even chrome)and
the vitamins (B1 and C) that are important in glycogen synthesis and
store, and (3) it is often eaten with a fatty sauce that isn't
conducive to a succesful carboloading,

Quoted message said:

(..) I think I'm going to buy one of these bad
boys tomorrow with intent to make it Sunday morning's pre-race
breakfast.

Here's to the power of those magic oatmeal-raisin cookies!

Quoted message said:

Pendejo, hoping to get to the NYCM expo in time to meet Deena this
afternoon

No matter how silly one may admit it to be one will always secretly
hope that just a little bit of magic will stick from a fleeting meeting
with one's hero: I know a mathematician who got unstuck with his thesis
when he met someone who'd written a paper with Paul Erdös and I know I
raced a smashing (for me) Vasaloppet ski race after getting myself into
a photo with both Juha Mieto and Bjørn Dæhlie:-)

Anders

David Geesaman said:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dred said:

thank you very much. only another runner could answer that question.
everyone i work with would think i'm nuts. now, the final question..
what did you do to drop the weight? i'm thinking of just trying to make
a slight change to what i eat ie: no more salty snacks and no more than
6 beers per week. maybe lose a pound a week.

For me, it was simply "eat less", though it also helped that I was running
a lot
of miles.

For me, the key is to keep my schedule busy (not necessarily high
stress, but avoid spending idle time around places that promote snacking -
like the living room). Also discipline myself to eat at mealtimes, and to
be as consistent as possible. If I snack often, my stomach growls and begs
for snacks constantly. If I stick to meals, my stomach lays quiet until
mealtime. An empty stomach does not mean you need to eat, and it does not
mean you must endure a hungry feeling. The key is a consistent schedule for
about 3 weeks, and your body will get with it.

Thanks -- this is really good stuff. Can't say "it works for me" yet because I
haven't tried it, but I'm certainly interested in testing some of the above
ideas (and the ones I snipped).

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Dred,
In our house we say, "Food matters".
That is to say everything you eat is important. If you are trying to
drop pounds, never eat anything that does not matter. Only eat
beneficial foods. Eat only whole foods. Never processed food. Buy a
scale, establish a base line, fill up on water.
You should find that if your diet (meaning daily food and meal plan,
not as in "Atkins" or the like) is right, you should not get
cravings - if you have cravings you are not eating right. Try adding
a ¼ cup of nuts, make sure you get fruit, animal protein, oats are
good. Try Kefir (http://www.kefir.net/ ), eat berries.
You may find the; "eat to drop pounds" and "eat to win" are
different plans.
Whatever, you need to run a calorie deficit to loose weight - and
forget beers (what is the benefit?) and "rewards". Food is not
about reward, it is about energy and sustenance - you should be
hungry most of the time. The reason most "diets" fail is because
they are reward based and they let you think that once the weight is
gone you will not need to endure the diet any more. You must learn to
relate to food differently and make a lifestyle change.

Some preaching huh?
A favorite quote of mine from; Zorba the Greek by Nikos Kazantzakis;
"Tell me what you do with the food you eat, and I'll tell you what you
are. Some turn their food into fat and manure, some into work and good
humor, and others, I'm told, into God."

/john

Dred said:

i've been running for quite a while, i'm 37 and i'm kinda still getting
better, but i'm not getting any thinner. i'm not heavy mind you, but i
wonder how much faster i could get and if my joints would feel relief
if i dropped some weight.

Nikki Kimball was quoted as saying she thought the extra weight she
carries, 5'3" 135 lbs protected her from injuries from falls, much more
likely for a trail runner. she also mentioned that people are constantly
walking up to her and telling her she should lose some weight. I like
her atititude, she said she felt comfortable with her body that she
feels strong and doesn't want to have to obsess about eating.

Of course this isn't apples to apples, she's not likely to be winning
any road races despite the fact she's never lost a trail ultra she's
entered.

i'm currenty 5'8" and around 148-150, BMI in

Quoted message said:

the healthy range of 22 something. does anyone think i'd be much better
off if i dropped down to 140?

i heard once that the best runners have a weight of 2 lbs. per inch of
height. that would be 136 for me. sounds way too light.

I would look like a victim of famine if I met that standard.

Quoted message said:

PR's this year:

5M- 34:30
1/2 Mar: 1:36:04

2003:
5K- 19:50
Mar- 3:44:50

2004
trying to forget.

jgs said:

In our house we say, "Food matters".

In ours we say "feces matter".

You are a fecal matter.

jgs said:

You are a fecal matter.

That's why it matters!

Donovan Rebbechi said:

It made a hell of a difference. Here are some of my pre and post weight loss
PRs. I haven't included any that were very "soft".

PRs @160lb @148lb

5k: 17:25 16:50
10k: 36:30 34:33
5k cross: 18:26 17:46

how much of the time gain do you relate to your lost weight?

I remember reading your post about the sub17 journey, and I had the same
feeling : how is it possible to tell what's the part of training and
that of weight loss in your breakthrough ? (knowing that it is not a
case of all or none, weight loss leading to better training and vice versa)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

i heard once that the best runners have a weight of 2 lbs. per inch of
height. that would be 136 for me. sounds way too light.

I think BMI is a better metric than raw weight to height.

You can take a look at weights and heights of top runners on various websites
like usatf.org, and some marathon preview websites.

I think a BMI of about 20 is fairly typical. There are some guys who are much
thinner than that, e.g. Paul Tergat and Alan Culpepper are about 130lb at
6 foot, but these guys are quite exceptional -- they have tiny joints and almost
elongated physiques. Many of the shorter runners like Khanouchi and Gebrselassie
are about 130lb and shorter (5'6"😉

Most of the American elites are a bit bigger -- somewhere in the 140s would be
fairly typical. Alan Webb is about 145lb. So he's about the same weight as me
but a bit shorter.

Cheers,

marko said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

It made a hell of a difference. Here are some of my pre and post weight loss
PRs. I haven't included any that were very "soft".

PRs @160lb @148lb

5k: 17:25 16:50
10k: 36:30 34:33
5k cross: 18:26 17:46

how much of the time gain do you relate to your lost weight?

I remember reading your post about the sub17 journey, and I had the same
feeling : how is it possible to tell what's the part of training and
that of weight loss in your breakthrough ? (knowing that it is not a
case of all or none, weight loss leading to better training and vice versa)

good question, the only way to really know would be to reverse the weight loss
without changing the training, which I'm not prepared to do. So we never will
know for sure.

My hunch is that the change in training wasn't substantial enough to produce
such a dramatic improvement, so most of it is due to the weight drop. I did get
up to 70 miles per week on a regular basis and run intervals twice a week from
about May 2004 to about Feb 05, so the changes in training are an increase from
~70mpw to ~80mpw and a move towards the Deeks which are a nice workout but
there's no reason to think that they are vastly superior to my old 4x1200 core
workout.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

David Geesaman said:

find something to occupy myself - in fact cleaning is a great
boredom-breaker - it helps your self-esteem [...] idle hands are
the root cause.

Gee whiz, David. I fully agree with your assessment that we NYC rr'ers
are all more neurotic than Woody Allen lately - but at least we don't
sound like some anorectic Donna Reed! You think it'll help if I
exchange my singlet for an apron? ;-)

Pendejo, writing from a city which is often crazy but never dull

Donovan Rebbechi said:

good question, the only way to really know would be to reverse the weight loss
without changing the training, which I'm not prepared to do. So we never will
know for sure.

i can understand that ;op

Quoted message said:

My hunch is that the change in training wasn't substantial enough to produce
such a dramatic improvement, so most of it is due to the weight drop. I did get
up to 70 miles per week on a regular basis and run intervals twice a week from
about May 2004 to about Feb 05, so the changes in training are an increase from
~70mpw to ~80mpw and a move towards the Deeks which are a nice workout but
there's no reason to think that they are vastly superior to my old 4x1200 core
workout.

that was somehow my guess too, so it's interesting to read that weight
loss does indeed produce better times in races.
now, so much time (more than 30" on a 5k) is probably also due to
training, be it mileage increase, or the new workout you did.

FWIW i'm currently losing some weight while increasing mileage at the
same time, and i can really feel an almost week-by-week faster pace in
my runs, at the same easy perceived-level.
gonna check this on a 10k, november 20th.

Quoted message said:

Cheers,

marko said:

now, so much time (more than 30" on a 5k) is probably also due to
training, be it mileage increase, or the new workout you did.

DR may or may not agree, but I'd like to believe he is (as am I) still
at an early enough stage in his running career that performance would
improve even with all other factors (weight, training, diet...)
constant. Slowly, maybe, but from my reading I believe there's some
gradual base improvement at least for N years, whether you want to call
if "lifetime mileage" or "really slow adaptations" or whatever.

Of course in DR's case all the other factors haven't been constant, and
surely his impressive improvement has been a lot more rapid than if he
were less aggressive on these fronts.