weight and running

marko said:

how is it possible to tell what's the part of training and
that of weight loss in your breakthrough ?

This is what gave me a very different perspective of the relative efficiency
of different training schedules and their relation to age (and/or number of
years running)

Male, 1m80 ( 5'11" )

Date 04-02 11-02 04-05 11-05
Yrs running 3 3.5 6 6.5
Weight kg 72 68 73 71
lbs 159 150 161 156
BMI 21.8 20.9 22.5 21.8
Marathon time 3:07 2:55 3:03 any bets?

Highest BMI observed = 24.5 in 1997 after stopping smoking but before
stopping drinking and before starting to exercise.

Lowest BMI observed = 20 in 1993 while a heavy smoker. Wonder how fast I'd
run if I were 65 kilos now? (guestimate = 2:40-2:45)

steve common said:

Date 11-05
Marathon time any bets?

2:08:24

Charlie Pendejo said:

steve common said:

Date 11-05
Marathon time any bets?

2:08:24

Roll on Sunday! You're gettin' so sharp you'll slice straight through your
running shorts when the gun fires ;-)

jgs said:

Whatever, you need to run a calorie deficit to loose weight

There's nothing worse than "loose" weight. Firm weight is the only way
to go if you want to run fast. ;-)

tkb

"Dred" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

i've been running for quite a while, i'm 37 and i'm kinda still getting
better, but i'm not getting any thinner. i'm not heavy mind you, but i
wonder how much faster i could get and if my joints would feel relief
if i dropped some weight. i'm currenty 5'8" and around 148-150, BMI in
the healthy range of 22 something. does anyone think i'd be much better
off if i dropped down to 140?

i heard once that the best runners have a weight of 2 lbs. per inch of
height. that would be 136 for me. sounds way too light.

Depends on your frame. I have pix of me finishing races at 140# and I
looked quite muscular, not like the super-skinny elite whippets. I could
probably have gotten down to low 130's with my frame.

I'm 5'9, narrow frame.
Years ago, I dropped from ~150 to 140.
My 10k went from 34:35 to 33:35.
My marathon from 2:44 to 2:37.

What did it for me was not conscious dieting, but jumping from 75-80 mpw to
95mpw.
I found that my appetite seemed to decrease when I was running 13mi/day.
The training felt easier (lower average pace), too.

steve common said:

Date 04-02 11-02 04-05 11-05
Yrs running 3 3.5 6 6.5
Weight kg 72 68 73 71
lbs 159 150 161 156
BMI 21.8 20.9 22.5 21.8
Marathon time 3:07 2:55 3:03 any bets?

2h58' ?

Quoted message said:

Highest BMI observed = 24.5 in 1997 after stopping smoking but before
stopping drinking and before starting to exercise.

Lowest BMI observed = 20 in 1993 while a heavy smoker. Wonder how fast I'd
run if I were 65 kilos now? (guestimate = 2:40-2:45)

there is probably a limit to that, and besides, you should have more
muscles now, so this is added weight, that you need to get you though a
marathon! I wonder what is the limit though.

"Parker Race" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dred said:

i've been running for quite a while, i'm 37 and i'm kinda still getting
better, but i'm not getting any thinner. i'm not heavy mind you, but i
wonder how much faster i could get and if my joints would feel relief
if i dropped some weight.

Nikki Kimball was quoted as saying she thought the extra weight she
carries, 5'3" 135 lbs protected her from injuries from falls, much more
likely for a trail runner. she also mentioned that people are constantly
walking up to her and telling her she should lose some weight. I like
her atititude, she said she felt comfortable with her body that she
feels strong and doesn't want to have to obsess about eating.

I read the same article in Running Times - interesting article. The thing
about falls sounds silly to me though. Skiing yes, but I wonder how many
times she falls trail running. I don't think falls are that common. Besides,
the bigger you are the harder you fall. I would have liked to read more
about her training and less about her social life.

-Tony

"Tony S." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:cg2bf.106$941.15@trndny02...

Quoted message said:

"Parker Race" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dred said:

i've been running for quite a while, i'm 37 and i'm kinda still getting
better, but i'm not getting any thinner. i'm not heavy mind you, but i
wonder how much faster i could get and if my joints would feel relief
if i dropped some weight.

Nikki Kimball was quoted as saying she thought the extra weight she
carries, 5'3" 135 lbs protected her from injuries from falls, much more
likely for a trail runner. she also mentioned that people are constantly
walking up to her and telling her she should lose some weight. I like
her atititude, she said she felt comfortable with her body that she
feels strong and doesn't want to have to obsess about eating.

I read the same article in Running Times - interesting article. The thing
about falls sounds silly to me though.

Agreed.

Quoted message said:

Skiing yes, but I wonder how many
times she falls trail running. I don't think falls are that common.
Besides,
the bigger you are the harder you fall. I would have liked to read more
about her training and less about her social life.

Think it would help us much? I tend to think she's just a naturally gifted
endurance athlete.
I liked the article, more a glimpse into who she is rather than her training
schedule.

Quoted message said:

-Tony

"Tony S." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:cg2bf.106$941.15@trndny02...

Quoted message said:

I read the same article in Running Times - interesting article. The
thing
about falls sounds silly to me though.

I can't speak for her Nikki but I can tell you falling is not that
rare. Maybe I'm clumsy but there is not a race that I don't fall at
least once and I have done a few races. I fell twice at the VT50 and
that is an easy trail. Not that the Escarpment is typical but I would
say that at least 40% come across the finish line with scrapes and
bruises from falling. And the faster one runs, such as with Nikki, the
more likely one is to place themselves in "fallable" situations.

From the years I ran the escarpment the fast runners would will leap and
then look to find a place to land where I need to see where my next foot
landing is before I leap.

Quoted message said:

Besides, the bigger you are the harder you fall. I would have liked
to read more
about her training and less about her social life.

Social life? Does she raise puppies? That's one strange lady if ya get
my drift.

-DougF

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tony S." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:cg2bf.106$941.15@trndny02...

Quoted message said:

I read the same article in Running Times - interesting article. The
thing
about falls sounds silly to me though.

I can't speak for her Nikki but I can tell you falling is not that
rare. Maybe I'm clumsy but there is not a race that I don't fall at
least once and I have done a few races. I fell twice at the VT50 and
that is an easy trail. Not that the Escarpment is typical but I would
say that at least 40% come across the finish line with scrapes and
bruises from falling. And the faster one runs, such as with Nikki, the
more likely one is to place themselves in "fallable" situations.

Good point. I don't go fast enough for this to be a problem I guess, plus I
grew up on trails. I think the only time I fell this year was running on an
icy trail with no traction devices on my shoes. But the thing about more
weight giving padding for falls sounds silly - she could wear some
lightweight pads if she's worried about cracking her hip or something. But
like she says in the article, she's happy at that weight (5'3" 135); and
she's winning, even breaking Ann Trason's record in some race.

Quoted message said:

From the years I ran the escarpment the fast runners would will leap and
then look to find a place to land where I need to see where my next foot
landing is before I leap.

I don't have to slow down as I can adjust mid air when running over rocks,
but if I was faster it might be a bigger problem. The most difficult footing
for me is: deeper leaves over very rocky trails, which you can adjust to
with a certain running style (but of course you can't go that fast); and of
course icy trails, which I usually run on without screws to keep my balance
sharp, but it sure gives the knees extra stress as the foot 'floats' on
placement, as it does on snow.

-Tony

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Besides, the bigger you are the harder you fall. I would have liked
to read more
about her training and less about her social life.

Social life? Does she raise puppies? That's one strange lady if ya get
my drift.

-DougF

On Sat, 05 Nov 2005 21:28:06 GMT, "Doug Freese" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Maybe I'm clumsy but there is not a race that I don't fall at
least once and I have done a few races. I fell twice at the VT50 and
that is an easy trail.

Were you wearing the helmet the bus driver (on the lil' bus) gave you
Douglas? How'd you do at the special olympics?

Tony S. said:

"Parker Race" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dred said:

i've been running for quite a while, i'm 37 and i'm kinda still getting
better, but i'm not getting any thinner. i'm not heavy mind you, but i
wonder how much faster i could get and if my joints would feel relief
if i dropped some weight.

Nikki Kimball was quoted as saying she thought the extra weight she
carries, 5'3" 135 lbs protected her from injuries from falls, much more
likely for a trail runner. she also mentioned that people are constantly
walking up to her and telling her she should lose some weight. I like
her atititude, she said she felt comfortable with her body that she
feels strong and doesn't want to have to obsess about eating.

Yea, and in the same article mentions she has a Kimball's Karnivore Kamp
as a parallel to Scott Jurek's vegetarian training camps😉. I like her
attitude also.

Quoted message said:

I read the same article in Running Times - interesting article. The thing
about falls sounds silly to me though. Skiing yes, but I wonder how many
times she falls trail running. I don't think falls are that common. Besides,
the bigger you are the harder you fall. I would have liked to read more
about her training and less about her social life.

Falling is very real - and resultant injuries sometimes, although I
think I hear about it more in women than men. (Men are by no means
immune - look at Mt. Marathon stories.)

For comparison - isolated, and maybe "correlation" rather than "cause
and effect", but look at Julie U., 2005 US national 50k trail women's
champion, 3rd in 50-mi behind Nikki by about 15 min.

I'm pretty sure that's Nikki in front of those 3.
http://home.att.net/~akrunning/WMRT2003/img_6266.sml_9.jpg
2nd in this one (Anita Ortiz in front)
http://home.att.net/~akrunning/WMRT2003/img_6312.sml_11.jpg

Although the pictures in the Running Times article might show actual
size better owing to lack of warm layers. She sure doesn't look 135 lb
for 5 ft 3in. She seemed taller to me the couple times I've seen her
(WMRT2003 on course and recovery run, and US national ss championships
2005 on podium) Could be a lot of muscle.

Julie's in the upper right photo on this page (didn't have the large
image uploaded)
http://home.att.net/~akrunning/Hills/index0002.html

But Julie is more Kenyan-like - tiny, small frame and light weight - but
doesn't have the "unhealthy" look that some road distance runners have.
She falls her fair share - and breaks things, like hips, ribs, thumbs, etc.

Based on the article (and Doug may know more since she had been in the
NY-New England area for a number a years before heading to Montana),
Nikki has a long competitive history - xc skiing, snowshoeing, running.
Just guessing, but her early xc skiing experience may have developed a
good sense of proprioception and ankle strength and maybe more core
strength for her, esp. since she competed in college.

Julie is comparatively new to running, although she may have run in hs.
IIRC, she's been running up here *about* 5 yr, and she just re-started
after she got here so no real prior history. Almost every newspaper
article about her wins has a comment on injury in the race or one she's
recovering from (of course, this makes good press). She considers 50k's
speedwork. She broke her ribs near mile 13 in the 50k champsionship and
was in pain the remainder. (original medics said "bruised ribs", but
re-check when back in Alaska said they were broken.)

http://www.adn.com/sports/story/6881368p-6777855c.html
"It's just part of the game," Udchachon said of her fall. "It's not
football, but it is trail running."
(In case anyone is wondering, this is where my sig file a couple months
ago came from.)

Equinox http://www.adn.com/sports/story/6984445p-6885342c.html
"Up until about a week ago, I wasn't even able to get out of bed," said
Udchachon, who broke two ribs while running the U.S. National 50K
championship three weeks ago in California. "Finally I was able to sit
up, and I thought if I can do that, I can go ahead and run a marathon."

Julie is a red-liner - waaay beyond anything most in r.r even think
about. She's like Matt Carpenter in goals - go for course records, wins,
beating the guys (ok, Matt doesn't have that one), etc. She'll risk a
dnf to go all out. But she is really humble and quiet. I know these
stories, only because I read the newspaper and/or have heard stories
from her training partners - *not* from her.

Now that background is established:

Does she fall more than most trail runners? I don't know, since I
typically see her at the start of our snowshoe runs for the first few
seconds or first bend, whichever comes first; then I see her the next
week. (we generally do out/backs, go as far as you want, turn back when
you're ready - and she may go out for 5 hrs, frequently alone, sometimes
one other person, sometimes returning well after dark)

Does she break more things? probably. Does light weight have anything to
do with it? Low calcium or bone density? Does she fall harder because
she's going faster? Dunno.

Chatting with her and another ss runner after a party recently, and I
got the impression she felt like she fell a lot - perhaps needing better
proprioception or strength. Earlier in the summer she had met the
instructor from my xt class (he runs also), she was considering taking
that class for the strengthening it provides, but I haven't seen her
(over 1 hr drive for her, so not surprised).

The Nikki-side of those questions is: does Nikki fall less? or break
less when she does fall. Is any of that attributable to size or training
or... ? Dunno.

FWIW, I have a hunch there's going to be some competition in the women's
races in the next few years, since Julie is very much on learning curve
for longer distances. I think she has Nikki in her sights and maybe an
Ann Trason record. Nothing she's said, but just the way she is about
competition, and the respect people have for her speed. (plus some body
language while watching Race Across the Sky when they were talking about
Ann Trason trying to beat the Tarahumara at LT100 in 1994.)

Dot

--
"If we reach all our goals, we are not setting them high enough."
- Matt Carpenter

This is all great reading! Falling and trail running seem to go hand in
hand.
In response to the question in another thread - 'track -v-
trail', Which is faster? Asking how fast can you run on the trail is
kind like asking; "how fast can you dance?"

I have found that the two most common causes of my falling are; lack of
traction (leading foot) and trailing foot snag. The former, the leading
foot slip seems to happen in slow motion, you feel it, then you see it
coming. The trailing foot snag is more instant, recovery is almost
impossible - you just hope you have a granite free landing.

Why does Nikki fall so often? I suspect for the same reason she crosses
the line before so many others. She is going like hell, putting it all
on the line and leaving nothing to regret. When you are really pushing,
you get yourself into situations - no where to land, suddenly wet
corner, immoveable object (tree, rock, gate) and no time to react. I
suspect she has a little, "win or DNF" in her.
Personally I need to make it to work on Monday morning, feed my family
- mundane stuff I know. I am thankful that there are people out there
leaving me in the dust - defining 'breakneck pace'.
It must be wonderful to see her run.

/john

jgs said:

Falling and trail running seem to go hand in
hand.

I've been trail running for years, and I can count on one hand how
many times I've fallen. Doug rode the short bus to school, talks with
a slur, is older than dirt, and has to wear a *special* helmet to go
shopping at the mall. Using him as an example is not typical.

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

David Geesaman said:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 2005-11-03, Dred <[email hidden]> wrote:
> thank you very much. only another runner could answer that question.
> everyone i work with would think i'm nuts. now, the final question..
> what did you do to drop the weight? i'm thinking of just trying to make
> a slight change to what i eat ie: no more salty snacks and no more than
> 6 beers per week. maybe lose a pound a week.

For me, it was simply "eat less", though it also helped that I was
running
a lot
of miles.

For me, the key is to keep my schedule busy (not necessarily high
stress, but avoid spending idle time around places that promote
snacking -
like the living room). Also discipline myself to eat at mealtimes, and
to
be as consistent as possible. If I snack often, my stomach growls and
begs
for snacks constantly. If I stick to meals, my stomach lays quiet until
mealtime. An empty stomach does not mean you need to eat, and it does
not
mean you must endure a hungry feeling. The key is a consistent schedule
for
about 3 weeks, and your body will get with it.

Thanks -- this is really good stuff. Can't say "it works for me" yet
because I
haven't tried it, but I'm certainly interested in testing some of the
above
ideas (and the ones I snipped).

The last time I was able to prove this possibility was when I was in
Africa, eating meals that were prepared for me. 3 square meals/day, very
high carbos, no snacks available at all, fairly low fat. I would stuff
myself at every meal, and within 3 hours my stomach was empty and I was
hungry again. At first I felt like it would be a real trouble, but after a
week or two I really got into the schedule.
IMO, the problem is that it's so hard to lock a schedule down that works
with this kind of consistency.

Dave

I've tried them all: low fat, low carb, supplements. Nothing worked as
well, or was as easy, as Eat to Live: www.drfuhrman.com. Joel Fuhrman,
MD is a former member of the US figure skating team. His book is
thoroughly documented.

The diet is based on the fact that high-nutrient foods like leafy
greens, fruit, beans, grains, etc. drastically reduce hunger. I was on
the diet for two years, and I can testify that it really works. During
the first six weeks I lost 20+ lbs and didn't feel tired even though I
was running 30-40 mpw. I did, however, get in trouble when I tried to
reduce carbs to 0 - I discovered that you cannot get enough carbs to
sustain a decent exercise program from fruit alone. (No dried fruit,
like dates, allowed during first six weeks.)

I disagree with Fuhrman in minor points: it is <not> possible for all
individuals to get enough calcium and B12, or feel really well on a
vegan diet. I felt immensely better once I began taking dairy again. But
I was fine for the six-week first phase. (After that, Fuhrman says go
ahead and cheat 10% of the time.)

I stopped the diet when my girlfriend went in for a hysterectomy - body
weight kind of fades into the background as a concern when someone's
sticking a knife into a loved one. But it was always easy to maintain,
and I'll likely go back to it in the next months.

Good luck.

George Beinhorn
www.fitnessintuition.com