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Question on multi-use trails

Started by Monique Y. Herm · · Last activity · 30 posts · 1,162 views

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Mountain Bikes
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17 August 2003
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21 August 2003
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Monique Y. Herm
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  1. So, as some of you might recall, I'm fairly new to mountain biking. Things have been pretty busy, so
    my only rides this month have been three loops around Betasso, a fairly moderate 3.5 mile loop that
    nevertheless kicks my butt =)

    Anyway, the last time I was there, a lady from park services was surveying bikers about their
    interests and needs. I thought this was pretty cool. We got into a discussion about the
    Betasso policy, which is that bikes are not allowed on the trail Weds and Sat, and in addition
    to this, bikes are only allowed to go one direction on the loop (the direction is reversed
    every month or so).

    This policy seems all right to me -- it means that if hikers really hate dealing with bikes, they
    don't have to, and it means that hikers only have to keep an eye out in one direction for bikes. It
    seems to me that it should reduce trail friction, which must be good for everyone ...

    To my surprise, the park services lady said that a lot of bikers were quite upset about these
    policies. It seemed to me that it's in the bikers' own self-interest to be able to avoid
    antagonistic hikers (as well as avoiding antagonizing hikers). On the other hand, she pointed out
    that many of these bikers had been doing their thing since before there were any restrictions at all
    ... so maybe they perceive a gradual erosion of rights that will lead inexorably to a total lack of
    bike trails in the entire region. I can certainly see where that would become a real fear, and maybe
    I'm naive not to feel the pressure.

    So, what do you folks think about policies that restrict bikes to certain days, etc? In this
    particular case, bikers can use the trail 5 days a week, and one of those days is on the weekend.

    Two anecdotes that may be relevant:

    1) The first day that I rode this trail, my fiance and I slowly approached a gaggle of
    variously-aged children and their chaparones. An older woman thanked us profusely for going so
    slowly, which makes me wonder if she's more often been treated to bikers plowing right through
    the group.

    2) While my parents were visiting, I took them for a hike around this same trail. We chose the
    direction counter to the bike direction specifically so that we wouldn't have bikes roaring up on
    us from behind. We encountered no hikers and many bikers, most of whom were courteous and
    friendly, but there was one pair that were going the wrong direction and zooming right up on us
    in precisely the fashion we'd tried to avoid. As the guy in the lead zipped past, I called out,
    "Hey, aren't you going the wrong way?", to which he responded completely unapologetically, "They
    change it every couple of weeks -- I can't keep it straight." His companion at least had the
    courtesy to look a little shame-faced. Mind you, the direction is posted quite prominently at the
    trail head, and there's a big "WRONG WAY BIKERS" sign a couple of hundred yards into the trail,
    just in case you hadn't noticed the first one. There is an alternate route into the trail, but
    even if they had used it, I believe they would still have ridden past both signs. This kind of
    behavior made me wish that there were such a thing as bike license plates ...

    These two anecdotes suggest to me that the bike-free days aren't a bad idea at all ... though, if
    the bikers in the second example aren't willing to follow instructions on trail direction, they're
    probably not terribly likely to follow other policies, either.

    -- monique

    PS -- Is there any such thing anywhere as bike-only trails? I'm betting not ...

  2. "Monique Y. Herman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    PS -- Is there any such thing anywhere as bike-only trails? I'm betting not ...


    Yes. The local trail system in Baton Rouge is run by the public park system, and is bike only, and
    that point was made quite clear to horse people. Nothing more unnerving than to round a blind corner
    of single track, and damn near run into a 2,000 lb horse. There was also the massive mounds [censored] on
    the trail.

  3. Monique Y. Herman said:

    So, as some of you might recall, I'm fairly new to mountain biking. Things have been pretty busy,
    so my only rides this month have been three loops around Betasso, a fairly moderate 3.5 mile loop
    that nevertheless kicks my butt =)

    Anyway, the last time I was there, a lady from park services was surveying bikers about their
    interests and needs. I thought this was pretty cool. We got into a discussion about the
    Betasso policy, which is that bikes are not allowed on the trail Weds and Sat, and in addition
    to this, bikes are only allowed to go one direction on the loop (the direction is reversed
    every month or so).


    ... One of the places that I ride locally has a similar days policy -- except that the days that
    mountain bikes aren't permitted is weekends <sigh> -- understadable, but anoying.

    As to directionality -- there are some trails that I ride that I really like to ride in one
    direction only. But, if the area has a good reason for their policy (like less accidents from idiots
    riding over their heads or taking blind turns too fast), then I be whole heartedly in favor of it.

    David

  4. voodoo said:

    "Monique Y. Herman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    PS -- Is there any such thing anywhere as bike-only trails? I'm betting not ...

    Yes. The local trail system in Baton Rouge is run by the public park system, and is bike only, and
    that point was made quite clear to horse people. Nothing more unnerving than to round a blind
    corner of single track, and damn near run into a 2,000 lb horse. There was also the massive mounds
    [censored] on the trail.

    Maybe you shouldn't be going around a blind turn that fast -- suppose there was a novice biker going
    slow or they had crashed or stopped for a short (naive) break?

    David

  5. "Monique Y. Herman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    So, as some of you might recall, I'm fairly new to mountain biking. Things have been pretty busy,
    so my only rides this month have been three loops around Betasso, a fairly moderate 3.5 mile loop
    that nevertheless kicks my butt =)

    Anyway, the last time I was there, a lady from park services was surveying bikers about their
    interests and needs. I thought this was pretty cool. We got into a discussion about the
    Betasso policy, which is that bikes are not allowed on the trail Weds and Sat, and in addition
    to this, bikes are only allowed to go one direction on the loop (the direction is reversed
    every month or so).

    This policy seems all right to me -- it means that if hikers really hate dealing with bikes, they
    don't have to, and it means that hikers only have to keep an eye out in one direction for bikes.
    It seems to me that it should reduce trail friction, which must be good for everyone ...

    To my surprise, the park services lady said that a lot of bikers were quite upset about these
    policies. It seemed to me that it's in the bikers' own self-interest to be able to avoid
    antagonistic hikers (as well as avoiding antagonizing hikers). On the other hand, she pointed out
    that many of these bikers had been doing their thing since before there were any restrictions at
    all ... so maybe they perceive a gradual erosion of rights that will lead inexorably to a total
    lack of bike trails in the entire region. I can certainly see where that would become a real fear,
    and maybe I'm naive not to feel the pressure.

    So, what do you folks think about policies that restrict bikes to certain days, etc? In this
    particular case, bikers can use the trail 5 days a week, and one of those days is on the weekend.

    Two anecdotes that may be relevant:

    1) The first day that I rode this trail, my fiance and I slowly approached a gaggle of
    variously-aged children and their chaparones. An older woman thanked us profusely for going so
    slowly, which makes me wonder if she's more often been treated to bikers plowing right through
    the group.

    2) While my parents were visiting, I took them for a hike around this same trail. We chose the
    direction counter to the bike direction specifically so that we wouldn't have bikes roaring up
    on us from behind. We encountered no hikers and many bikers, most of whom were courteous and
    friendly, but there was one pair that were going the wrong direction and zooming right up on us
    in precisely the fashion we'd tried to avoid. As the guy in the lead zipped past, I called out,
    "Hey, aren't you going the wrong way?", to which he responded completely unapologetically,
    "They change it every couple of weeks -- I can't keep it straight." His companion at least had
    the courtesy to look a little shame-faced. Mind you, the direction is posted quite prominently
    at the trail head, and there's a big "WRONG WAY BIKERS" sign a couple of hundred yards into the
    trail, just in case you hadn't noticed the first one. There is an alternate route into the
    trail, but even if they had used it, I believe they would still have ridden past both signs.
    This kind of behavior made me wish that there were such a thing as bike license plates ...

    These two anecdotes suggest to me that the bike-free days aren't a bad idea at all ... though, if
    the bikers in the second example aren't willing to follow instructions on trail direction, they're
    probably not terribly likely to follow other policies, either.

    -- monique

    PS -- Is there any such thing anywhere as bike-only trails? I'm betting not ...

    Thank you for writing this. I am actually going to forward this to a local state park. It has a very
    popular multi use trail that is becoming clogged more and more by the day with walkers, joggers,
    bikers, in line skaters, and the newest craze are these canopy bikes for three people, which are
    very wide, and seem to be a bit hard to control properly and these damn three wheel chopper
    tricycles.

  6. Biker wrong way what a joke.

    Fire up MTB 03

  7. RE/

    Quoted message said:

    This policy seems all right to me -- it means that if hikers really hate dealing with bikes, they
    don't have to, and it means that hikers only have to keep an eye out in one direction for bikes. It
    seems to me that it should reduce trail friction, which must be good for everyone ...

    To my surprise, the park services lady said that a lot of bikers were quite upset about these
    policies. It seemed to me that it's in the bikers' own self-interest to be able to avoid
    antagonistic hikers (as well as avoiding antagonizing hikers).

    It sure beats total closure.

    Once the numbers get to a certain point, the one-percenters start to make their impact.
    -----------------------
    PeteCresswell

  8. Hikers should be able to go whereever they want so technically all trails are multi-use. Although, I
    have seen some trails around my area that were built by bikers and on private land that are bikes
    only. But, no one gives hikers any grief if they are out there.

    Multi-use trails with horses should be banned and IMBA should stop saying they are good for our
    sport. Mountain Bikers should build and maintain biker trails. We've got screwed locally because we
    help build and maintain trails and then the equestrians or little old ladys on nature walks get us
    kicked-out.

    As a mountain biker I've given up on any support for multi-use trails. I don't even like to
    support "easy" mountain bike trails. Because there are a lot of real ease trails here in local
    parks that we bikers built then the neighborhood people come out and then they write nasty letters
    to local officials because we ruined there nature trails because we went by at 20mph on flat
    non-technical trails.

    Ok....I'm done.

    Mark

  9. Hikers should be able to go whereever they want so technically all trails are multi-use. Although, I
    have seen some trails around my area that were built by bikers and on private land that are bikes
    only. But, no one gives hikers any grief if they are out there.

    Multi-use trails with horses should be banned! IMBA should stop saying they are good for our sport.
    Mountain Bikers should build and maintain biker trails. We've got screwed locally because we help
    build and maintain trails and then the equestrians or little old ladys on nature walks get us
    kicked-out.

    As a mountain biker I've given up on any support, building, or maintaining of multi-use trails that
    includes equestrian use. I don't even like to support "easy" mountain bike trails that a lot of
    hikers will use. There are a lot of real ease trails here in local parks that we mountain bikers
    built. Then the neighborhood people come out with strollers and then they write nasty letters to
    local officials because we ruined there nature trail day because we went by at 20mph on flat
    non-technical trails.

    I want everyone to enjoy the outdoors. But, I've helped build and maintain a lot of trail only to
    get crapped on by people that don't lift a finger to help. So now I support "Mountain Bike"
    trails only.

    Just say NO to multi-use.

    Ok....I'm done.

    Mark

  10. Oops. Sorry for the double post

    I get click happy when I get worked up sometimes.:-)

    Mark

  11. "David Kunz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    voodoo said:

    "Monique Y. Herman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    PS -- Is there any such thing anywhere as bike-only trails? I'm betting not ...

    Yes. The local trail system in Baton Rouge is run by the public park


    system,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and is bike only, and that point was made quite clear to horse people. Nothing more unnerving
    than to round a blind corner of single track, and damn near run into a 2,000 lb horse. There was
    also the massive mounds


    [censored]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    on the trail.

    Maybe you shouldn't be going around a blind turn that fast -- suppose there was a novice biker
    going slow or they had crashed or stopped for a short (naive) break?


    David, I checked my post, and nowhere do I see where I make reference to how fast I was going. How
    fast 'was' I going?

  12. "voodoo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Monique Y. Herman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    PS -- Is there any such thing anywhere as bike-only trails? I'm betting not ...


    Yes. The local trail system in Baton Rouge is run by the public park


    system,

    Quoted message said:

    and is bike only, and that point was made quite clear to horse people. Nothing more unnerving than
    to round a blind corner of single track, and damn near run into a 2,000 lb horse. There was also
    the massive mounds


    [censored]

    Quoted message said:

    on the trail.

    Monique asked about "bike-only" trails. Not allowing horses doesn't necessarily equal "bike-only".

    Bill "in a perfect world it would, but..." S.

  13. voodoo said:

    "David Kunz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    voodoo said:

    "Monique Y. Herman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    >PS -- Is there any such thing anywhere as bike-only trails? I'm betting not ...
    >

    Yes. The local trail system in Baton Rouge is run by the public park

    system,

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and is bike only, and that point was made quite clear to horse people. Nothing more unnerving
    than to round a blind corner of single track, and damn near run into a 2,000 lb horse. There was
    also the massive mounds

    [censored]

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    on the trail.

    Maybe you shouldn't be going around a blind turn that fast -- suppose there was a novice biker
    going slow or they had crashed or stopped for a short (naive) break?

    David, I checked my post, and nowhere do I see where I make reference to how fast I was going. How
    fast 'was' I going?

    My mistake then, I read the last part as implying fast. I've seen it myself too many times and
    jumped to the wrong conclusion.

    David

  14. Quoted message said:

    "Monique Y. Herman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    Anyway, the last time I was there, a lady from park services was surveying bikers about their
    interests and needs. I thought this was pretty cool. We got into a discussion about the
    Betasso policy, which is that bikes are not allowed on the trail Weds and Sat, and in addition
    to this, bikes are only allowed to go one direction on the loop (the direction is reversed
    every month or so).

    <big snip>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    PS -- Is there any such thing anywhere as bike-only trails? I'm betting not ...

    Thank you for writing this. I am actually going to forward this to a local state park. It has a
    very popular multi use trail that is becoming clogged more and more by the day with walkers,
    joggers, bikers, in line skaters, and the newest craze are these canopy bikes for three people,
    which are very wide, and seem to be a bit hard to control properly and these damn three wheel
    chopper tricycles.

    I'm a bit confused. I'm not sure my email stands as ringing endorsement of anything ... would
    you forward it as a suggestion to try restricting bikes to certain days? To have bike-only
    trails? Or ... ?

    Not trying to be snide; just curious.

    -- monique

  15. Mark B said:

    Hikers should be able to go whereever they want so technically all trails are multi-use. Although,
    I have seen some trails around my area that were built by bikers and on private land that are
    bikes only. But, no one gives hikers any grief if they are out there.

    Multi-use trails with horses should be banned and IMBA should stop saying they are good for our
    sport. Mountain Bikers should build and maintain biker trails. We've got screwed locally because
    we help build and maintain trails and then the equestrians or little old ladys on nature walks get
    us kicked-out.

    As a mountain biker I've given up on any support for multi-use trails. I don't even like to
    support "easy" mountain bike trails. Because there are a lot of real ease trails here in local
    parks that we bikers built then the neighborhood people come out and then they write nasty letters
    to local officials because we ruined there nature trails because we went by at 20mph on flat
    non-technical trails.

    Ok....I'm done.

    Mark

    I can see your point about multi-use trails ... it sucks to be kicked out of the place you helped
    build. I have no idea if that's prevalent around here, though I do know/believe that all of Boulder
    City (which includes some fairly steep mountainy trails) is off-limits to bikes.

    As for easy trails ... I do see your point, but us newbies have to start somewhere! The park
    services rep was glad to see me, because apparently I'm the first novice to have filled out her
    survey, so I'd give some variety to the reports.

    Speaking of, on the ride, it occurred to me to ask how I could get involved and help with what I
    guess I'd call "mountain biking advocacy" ... but she was gone before we finished the loop. Is it
    just a matter of mobilizing enough people to stop the insanity (of kicking bikers out), or are there
    simply too many politically-inclined hikers for it to work?

    -- monique

  16. Quoted message said:

    Thank you for writing this. I am actually going to forward this to a local state park. It has a
    very popular multi use trail that is becoming clogged more and more by the day with walkers,
    joggers, bikers, in line skaters,

    Hmm, inline skaters are the one group that I've never met on the trails. Maybe that's because I
    don't ride on pavements.

    Of course, when I've come in to contact with them at skateparks, they tend to end up in hospital 🙂

  17. "Monique Y. Herman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    So, as some of you might recall, I'm fairly new to mountain biking. Things have been pretty busy,
    so my only rides this month have been three loops around Betasso, a fairly moderate 3.5 mile loop
    that nevertheless kicks my butt =)

    Anyway, the last time I was there, a lady from park services was surveying bikers about their
    interests and needs. I thought this was pretty cool. We got into a discussion about the
    Betasso policy, which is that bikes are not allowed on the trail Weds and Sat, and in addition
    to this, bikes are only allowed to go one direction on the loop (the direction is reversed
    every month or so).

    This policy seems all right to me -- it means that if hikers really hate dealing with bikes, they
    don't have to, and it means that hikers only have to keep an eye out in one direction for bikes.
    It seems to me that it should reduce trail friction, which must be good for everyone ...

    To my surprise, the park services lady said that a lot of bikers were quite upset about these
    policies. It seemed to me that it's in the bikers' own self-interest to be able to avoid
    antagonistic hikers (as well as avoiding antagonizing hikers). On the other hand, she pointed out
    that many of these bikers had been doing their thing since before there were any restrictions at
    all ... so maybe they perceive a gradual erosion of rights that will lead inexorably to a total
    lack of bike trails in the entire region. I can certainly see where that would become a real fear,
    and maybe I'm naive not to feel the pressure.

    So, what do you folks think about policies that restrict bikes to certain days, etc? In this
    particular case, bikers can use the trail 5 days a week, and one of those days is on the weekend.

    Two anecdotes that may be relevant:

    1) The first day that I rode this trail, my fiance and I slowly approached a gaggle of
    variously-aged children and their chaparones. An older woman thanked us profusely for going so
    slowly, which makes me wonder if she's more often been treated to bikers plowing right through
    the group.

    2) While my parents were visiting, I took them for a hike around this same trail. We chose the
    direction counter to the bike direction specifically so that we wouldn't have bikes roaring up
    on us from behind. We encountered no hikers and many bikers, most of whom were courteous and
    friendly, but there was one pair that were going the wrong direction and zooming right up on us
    in precisely the fashion we'd tried to avoid. As the guy in the lead zipped past, I called out,
    "Hey, aren't you going the wrong way?", to which he responded completely unapologetically,
    "They change it every couple of weeks -- I can't keep it straight." His companion at least had
    the courtesy to look a little shame-faced. Mind you, the direction is posted quite prominently
    at the trail head, and there's a big "WRONG WAY BIKERS" sign a couple of hundred yards into the
    trail, just in case you hadn't noticed the first one. There is an alternate route into the
    trail, but even if they had used it, I believe they would still have ridden past both signs.
    This kind of behavior made me wish that there were such a thing as bike license plates ...

    These two anecdotes suggest to me that the bike-free days aren't a bad idea at all ... though, if
    the bikers in the second example aren't willing to follow instructions on trail direction, they're
    probably not terribly likely to follow other policies, either.

    -- monique

    PS -- Is there any such thing anywhere as bike-only trails? I'm betting not ...

    At a Pocahontas State Park, where I ride, there is a mountain bike only singletrack trail that is
    about 10 miles long. The park management wanted it this way to reduce conflict. Also it is a one way
    only trail. We discussed alternating direction on different days but decided that would lead to too
    much confusion (after all we're mountain bikers right? ;^) ) Occaisionally I encounter hikers and
    trail runners who prefer our trails to the boring forest roads and paths. I usually tell them this a
    bike only trail so they don't get [censored] when they get buzzed by a biker but also suggest they
    run/walk in the opposite direction as the bikes so they can see us coming. There have been no
    problems I know of so far.

    Mike

  18. RE/

    Quoted message said:


    Horses will always be a problem; they're huge and skittish, and they destroy trails.

    In Valley Forge, where I do a lot of riding, it looks ike horses tear up the paths and bikers pack
    it down again...
    -----------------------
    PeteCresswell

  19. "Monique Y. Herman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "Monique Y. Herman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    Anyway, the last time I was there, a lady from park services was surveying bikers about their
    interests and needs. I thought this was pretty cool. We got into a discussion about the Betasso
    policy, which is that bikes are not allowed on the trail Weds and Sat, and in addition to this,
    bikes are only allowed to go one direction on the loop (the direction is reversed every month
    or so).

    <big snip>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    PS -- Is there any such thing anywhere as bike-only trails? I'm betting not ...

    Thank you for writing this. I am actually going to forward this to a local state park. It has a
    very popular multi use trail that is becoming clogged more and more by the day with walkers,
    joggers, bikers, in line skaters, and the newest craze are these canopy bikes for three people,
    which are very wide, and seem to be a bit hard to control properly and these damn three wheel
    chopper tricycles.

    I'm a bit confused. I'm not sure my email stands as ringing endorsement of anything ... would
    you forward it as a suggestion to try restricting bikes to certain days? To have bike-only
    trails? Or ... ?

    Not trying to be snide; just curious.

    -- monique

    I forwarded it on without your email address. I sent it because I liked the idea of how your park
    seems to manage all the users, which is what my area park needs to do better. My area park trail is
    14.5 miles long, and is governed only by a sing every 3 miles. It is two lanes throughout 6 miles of
    it, and th rest is all one way, which people disregard routinely.

  20. JD said:

    "Monique Y. Herman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    So, as some of you might recall, I'm fairly new to mountain biking. Things have been pretty busy,
    so my only rides this month have been three loops around Betasso, a fairly moderate 3.5 mile loop
    that nevertheless kicks my butt =)

    Boulder is the joke of mountain biking cities. Even though IMBA is headquartered there, the hikers
    managed to kick mountain bikers off of almost everything.

    I lived in Boulder in '84 when I started mountain biking. Most trails were already closed to bikes,
    but we poached them with impunity until I moved away 1 1/2 years later (No, I haven't for many
    years). Very very different now. I suspect if a wheel casts a shadow across a trail, you'll do time.
    Boulder is so seriously f~cked up these days. (Apologies to those there who didn't make it that way)

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    PS -- Is there any such thing anywhere as bike-only trails? I'm betting not ...

    Come to Salida. It just works out that way! On second thought, never mind.

    Cheers, Shawn

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