Maybe the VT50

jgs said:

Helloe to the group,
Question;does anyone think it is possible to train for a long race like
the Vermont50 (the 50K) by biking and running? It would be great to use
cycling to train durning the week and to use the week-end for runs and
longer runs. I would like to try to avoid overuse injuries to me feet
and other body parts by mixing up the running and cycling.

Thanks,
/john

BTW - I am a dedicated trail runner and XC skier. My week-end trail
runs right now are about 10-12 miles of single track. Mid-week runs are
5-8 miles until the days get to short.
I ride the roads and run the trails.

Thanks to the group.

I predict that you will hear several differing opinions on this topic. For what
it's worth, here's mine.

First, a bit about my background -- I mostly race 1 mile-10k though I have
competed in half marathons (4 of them) and a marathon.

My take on this is that specificity counts. For this reason, I run about 80
miles a week for a few consecutive months prior to peaking, and average about
60 year round.

In terms of overuse injuries, the leading cause of injury among myself, people
I train with, and people who post on this newsgroup, is trying to run too fast--
overdoing speed work, overracing, hammering speed work without an adequate base,
etc. The only notable exception to this is that female runners are vulnerable to
stress fractures which can be partly caused by excessive training volume (though
there are other factors too), especially on hard surfaces (but also sudden
increases). So, if you run slowly on trails, and don't rapidly increase your
mileage, you probably shouldn't be too worried unless you have some prior
experience with injury that you are trying to avoid repeating.

I have seen plenty of evidence to support specificity, both anecdotal and
published. In terms of anecdotal evidence, I personally know some very
well trained cyclists who take up running, and make rapid performance gains
much like any new runner. So it seems that the peripheral adaptions make up
a substantial part of performance. I also know someone who cycles and runs only
minimal mileage (<1000 miles/year), and he races very well up to half-marathon,
but failed to finish the marathon last year. I also know from personal
experience that simply adding more mileage has substantially improved my own
times, even at shorter distances.

In terms of published evidence, the gains that one achieves with mileage are
highly specific. These include cell-level adaptions, which really need to occur
in the right head of the right muscle to be useful. The adaptions are highly
local and specific. Other possible adaptions such as increased neural efficiency
which one can gain by doing frequent strides, are obviously specific -- trying
to get these benefits from cycling is like trying to learn piano by practising
trumpet.

So, I think you're just selling yourself short if you try to use cycling as a
*substitute* for running. Think of it as a "supplement* instead. In particular,
if your training program looks woefully inadequate without the cycling
component, then it is woefully inadequate, period. But if you're using cycling
as a way to give your training volume a bit of a boost, then that's reasonable.
My rule of thumb is that I try to get in about 10hrs of training a week. If
there's some reason I simply *can't* run that much, I bridge the gap with
cross training. (for example, if I'm coming off a layoff, I can't just dive
into 70 miles per week. I need to build back up)

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Hi Donavan,
Thanks for taking the time - great comments.
Personally, I am a runner, not a racer. For that reason I am not too
worried about speed. Also at 48 yrs, and a pretty lean 190 lbs I don't
think I'm going to ever be a top finisher. I do however ever push
myself really hard because I like it.

Your comment; <These include cell-level adaptions, which really need to
occur
in the right head of the right muscle to be useful. The adaptions are
highly
local and specific. Other possible adaptions such as increased neural
efficiency
which one can gain by doing frequent strides, are obviously specific>
interests me.

Being a trail runner - I have had a couple bad sprains of my left
ankle. I am familiar with the concept of neural receptors and training
(or re-training) them. It does make sense that cycling would not
prepare the body for the demands of running.
In the late summer I took a trip to S.F., while I was there I did a 3.5
hour (knucklehead) run in the Marin Headlands. Everything was fine
except for my IT bands. For the first time ever they really got sore
and it took a week or two to recover. I guess that is what I would hope
to train against - the possibility the outer knee getting really
cooked. In my normal long runs of 80 - 100 minutes (with my #1 dog) I
have zero lasting pain. I am aware that when I double the distance and
duration that it is a whole new ball game.

Thanks,
/john

jgs said:

did a 3.5 hour (knucklehead) run in the Marin Headlands. Everything
was fine except for my IT bands [...] that is what I would hope
to train against

I'm not at all sure that increased mileage will immunize you to ITBS,
if that's what you're thinking. Perhaps this occurs to some extent if
the running strengthens the right muscles, but from my experience, if
you do nothing else to combat the problem, it's more likely the ITBS
will flare up and prevent you from increasing the miles in the first
place.

There's not 100% consensus on ITBS prevention & rehab but common areas
of focus (google ITB or ITBS, and ye shall find) include:

- stretching
- strengthening
- massage (including self-massage)
- right shoes for you

I would, and have, put my money on all 4... and on moderating my
quantity of downhill sprinting on pavement (but it's so damn fun!) and
on avoiding the track, whose repeated tight turns seem to evilly
synergize with my splay-footedness to put way more stress on my hips
and legs. Seems to be working, as ~40 MPW used to be my injury
threshold, and this year I've been around 70 a couple times and
routinely over 55 with no major problems.

Google Tony in this ng: he has trained for long (marathon & ultra)
events via running & biking these last two years, in different ratios
each year. And Tom B, who bikes frequently and only runs on full
moons, but makes up for it with unbelievable talent.

"jgs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Helloe to the group,
Question;does anyone think it is possible to train for a long race like
the Vermont50 (the 50K) by biking and running? It would be great to use
cycling to train durning the week and to use the week-end for runs and
longer runs. I would like to try to avoid overuse injuries to me feet
and other body parts by mixing up the running and cycling.

Thanks,
/john

BTW - I am a dedicated trail runner and XC skier. My week-end trail
runs right now are about 10-12 miles of single track. Mid-week runs are
5-8 miles until the days get to short.
I ride the roads and run the trails.

Thanks to the group.

As Donovan said, there will be differing opinions. I'm a recreational runner
who cross-trains for races, and I've done two 50k's (one in training), two
marathons (one in training), and a 50 mile in the past 2 years. I see no
reason why you can't take a similar approach. I cross-train for various
reasons, but mainly because I greatly enjoy both biking and trail running.
There are others also in this group who cross-train: Tom B. comes to mind.
If you read the "training-week" posts you can see my training for my races
in the past 2 years, and some of the other cross-trainers.

Usually I run 3 times per week and bike 3 times, with long runs on the
weekends (or alternating weekends), building up to 4-5 when preparing for a
longer race or ultra. I agree with Donovan in that all the literature (I
gather) suggests that more frequent, higher mileage running will make you a
faster and better runner. My goal is not to be as fast as I could be, it's
to enjoy outdoor sports and take on some bigger challenges at times, and use
them as goals. I'm not an expert on injuries, I just know my own body and
even though I can run for many hours on end, less days per week has worked
better for me over the past several years. I will try more frequent running
again this winter, as I usually do with less biking in cold weather, and
see what happens.

-Tony

Great stuff.
I am sure that my ITBS issue was a result of;
1) shoes - I wore my trail shoes (Montrail Hardrock) and they were at
the 'end of life'.
2) I had not intended to run that far, I just got caught up in the
moment. So I had not prepared at all.
3) Stretching was not part of the plan.
4) I didn't have my dog with me.

Great run though!

I will Google Tony's stuff. Like Tony (and many others I'm sure) I run
becuase if I don't, I dream about it. My recurring dreams are running
in the woods. The only thing that makes the dreams go away is - running
in the woods. I guess it's a calling. Doing a 50K by the time I'm 50
must be a mid-life crisis type thing.
Thanks for all the input and support.
/john

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So, I think you're just selling yourself short if you try to use
cycling as a
*substitute* for running. Think of it as a "supplement* instead. In
particular,
if your training program looks woefully inadequate without the cycling
component, then it is woefully inadequate, period. But if you're using
cycling
as a way to give your training volume a bit of a boost, then that's
reasonable.

While Donovan hasn't done this distance he is right on with his
assessment above. The specificity rule personified. I have finished the
50(never did this 50k) 10 times so I have some experience. Think of it
as a sliding scale, the more you bike the longer the time to run the
race and thus limit your chances of finishing. The corollary, the more
you run and less you bike, more specificity, the better the chance of
finishing. I'm intentionally ignoring stating any finish time. More
direct, bike miles will not help you run. If can help you cardio and may
help
keep your weight down but not a lot else.

I'll over generalize and say to do the 50k you should work up to a few
long runs of about 4 hours on trails equal to or harder in elevation
than the 50k. The VT50k has about 5,000-5,500 of gain and loss so you
long runs should encompass about 3-4k if not more. Total mileage about
40-50 a week. More is better but not if it injures you. This will get
you to the finish line before they put the hook on you and pull you. If
you do less you are risking finishing.

Tony S has tried to some degree what you would like to do and if he is
still reading r.r may offer his experience. We both finished the VT50
last month.

What is magical about the VT race? You are choosing a medium difficultly
race. A race like Hinte-Anderson in the spring is an easier 50k and
might give you a better experience. You can always mountain bike the
50. 😉

-DougF

jgs said:

Hi Donavan,
Thanks for taking the time - great comments.
Personally, I am a runner, not a racer. For that reason I am not too
worried about speed. Also at 48 yrs, and a pretty lean 190 lbs I don't

That's kind of heavy. Dropping some pounds would probably help in terms of
injury prevention (and performance), even if you're quite lean. I was lean at
160, but dropping to the high 140s helped considerably with both performance and
a niggling injury I was carrying (I ran faster *and* my injury attenuated
somewhat).

Quoted message said:

think I'm going to ever be a top finisher. I do however ever push
myself really hard because I like it.

OK.

Quoted message said:

Your comment; <These include cell-level adaptions, which really need to
occur
in the right head of the right muscle to be useful. The adaptions are
highly
local and specific. Other possible adaptions such as increased neural
efficiency
which one can gain by doing frequent strides, are obviously specific>
interests me.

Yep. Google strides -- it's been discussed here in depth. The idea is to do
some fast but easy running -- a good way to get in some low-risk quality work.
Paul Tergat calls this sort of thing "running school", and I like the term.

Quoted message said:

Being a trail runner - I have had a couple bad sprains of my left
ankle.

These are acute injuries -- I doubt they have much to do with training volume.

You could probably prevent them by not running on trails, but I don't think
you'd consider that an acceptable solution, so the next best thing is to be
really, really careful, especially on the downhills.

Quoted message said:

In the late summer I took a trip to S.F., while I was there I did a 3.5
hour (knucklehead) run in the Marin Headlands. Everything was fine
except for my IT bands. For the first time ever they really got sore
and it took a week or two to recover. I guess that is what I would hope
to train against - the possibility the outer knee getting really
cooked. In my normal long runs of 80 - 100 minutes (with my #1 dog) I
have zero lasting pain. I am aware that when I double the distance and
duration that it is a whole new ball game.

It is quite difficult to prepare for a run that long -- even at 80mpw with
several training runs in the 2.5hr range, a marathon would require weeks
recovery for me.

There are people here who have tried different approaches to preparing for long
runs (google Doug Freese and Steve Common for some interesting discussion on
preparing for very demanding races).

But when the chips are down, I always find myself coming back to specificity. So
I train to run long by running long. To train for a 10k, I do about 2hrs-2:15
for my weekly long runs, but if I was training for a much longer event (like
when I was marathon training), I would do a run in the range of 2:30-2:40 every
other week. I would back this up with some support mileage during the week, so
that the long run isn't overly taxing. To me, 80-100 minutes seems on the
short side even for 10k preparation.

So I'd suggest moving towards making your long runs a bit longer, and preparing
your body for long runs, so that your next 3.5hr run is less eventful.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

jgs said:

My recurring dreams are running in the woods.

One of the threads in Bernd Heinrich's _Why We Run_ (original title:
_Racing The Antelope_) is a persuasive argument that running is at the
very core of our identity, that the human species becoming human was
largely about running. It's a recommendable read - some fascinating
info and ideas - though (grumble, nitpick) the book really could have
used better editing.

Quoted message said:

Doing a 50K by the time I'm 50 must be a mid-life crisis type thing.

Much more common is the urge to do a 40DD at that age. But to each his
own. ;-)

jgs said:

Helloe to the group,
Question;does anyone think it is possible to train for a long race like
the Vermont50 (the 50K) by biking and running? It would be great to use
cycling to train durning the week and to use the week-end for runs and
longer runs. I would like to try to avoid overuse injuries to me feet
and other body parts by mixing up the running and cycling.

Thanks,
/john

BTW - I am a dedicated trail runner and XC skier. My week-end trail
runs right now are about 10-12 miles of single track. Mid-week runs are
5-8 miles until the days get to short.
I ride the roads and run the trails.

Thanks to the group.

Ditto what some others have already said, but a somewhat different
perspective from me. Not sure what your proportion of running, xc
skiing, and cycling in the winter is, but winter is usually base
building for summer races - or snowshoe or xc ski racing season. So no
need to ignore xc skiing as part of your base (not sure what level you are).

There's probably some genetics at work here - in addition to lots of
work, but many of our best mountain runners (Alaska) tend to be some of
our best xc skiers (Olympic team, in some cases). Our longest mtn race
tops out at about 24+ mi, but some of them have as much elevation change
as 50 milers - just not the distance. XC skiing is definitely good
aerobic work, and probably closer to running than road cycling is, as
far as specificity is concerned. (Anders may have more useful comments.)
Snowshoe running is another option for snow-covered trails - not quite
the same as regular running, but it definitely strengthens things.

Mtn biking might help build strength more than road cycling, depending
on what you have for trails. I've noticed some of the top mtn bikers do
well (top 10%) on some mtn races. (possibly genetics and hard work again)

You may also try using headlamp for running in the dark, if you want to
run longer during week.

Then when the days get longer and snow melts and mud has dried out,
you've already got a lot of strengthening and aerobic conditioning, so
you can depend more on the specificity of actually running.

Caveat: I haven't run 50 mi yet and base is still really low, but a
long-term goal (2-3 yr) for me is a long run through the woods (noticed
you used same terminology) for many hours (aka 50-mi event). I have used
mtn biking in snow-free season (summer, snowless winters) to rehab
achilles, but haven't done it much in last 2 yr while I've been trying
to maximize my running. I do some xc skiing (flat-tracking, mostly,
since I'm not a good enough skiier to handle local hills) if we have
snow. *If* we have decent snow (not looking good), I may add more skiing
in this year in addition to running and snowshoe running.

Just some other things to think about. Good luck.

Dot

--
"running is a mysterious journey that we take not just to beat other
people or to stay in reasonable physical shape - but to find out more
about ourselves" - Owen Anderson

Hey Donavan,
Yeah, at 190 lbs I wonder how a got into endurance sports. I can dream
of 185, less than that and I will be eating away at muscle tissue - I'm
a big guy.
Ankle sprains - I wear an ASO brace on my left ankle now - works
great - solid. After my second sprain I was sure I would be looking for
a new sport and running on the road just does not appeal to me. I love
running the slaloms through the tight trails and charging hills -
sometimes the dog doesn't even wear a collar, totally free.
The bike; love the bike, I found it to be a great tool for pushing my
aerobic threshold out as far as possible and it really paid off when I
got back on the trails in the later part of the summer. Skate skiing is
also great for pushing out the aerobic barrier. I don't get that
aerobic stretch running.

So yeah, I am starting to try and find a way to train for a long race.
I really appreciate all the input.

/john

Hey Charlie,
That fits what I have always held to be true...MTB riders always tell
me I need to get a bike and ride with them. In my mind I am always
thinking; running is PRIMAL. It just feels right. The mountain bike is
weird machine that comes between me and the trail. Running in the woods
can feel spiritual - or at least that is the moment I am trying to
attain.

/john

Yeah - 40DD or a Red M3.
Hey, i'm different.

jgs said:

Hi Donavan,
Thanks for taking the time - great comments.
Personally, I am a runner, not a racer. For that reason I am not too
worried about speed. Also at 48 yrs, and a pretty lean 190 lbs

nice to see a sense of humour.

i'd say your chances of finishing a 50K depend on your
training of course, but not just the running part. nutrition
and hydration will play a big role. and what time goal
do you have? if just to finish, then the training may
be different from trying to achieve your best
possible time. in my long races, i'm only aiming
to finish, so my training and focus is on
forward motion. not too fast. and on what to
eat when so i have energy to run a bit.

Here's a quote from the 2003 race:
Conditions: continuous heavy downpour, mud and mud and
more mud, river crossings, single track trails, soggy fields, dirt
packed roads, continuous elevation gain or loss, mountain
bikers passing (Roger swears he had to step aside for at least
400 bikers), one big pig, several cows, many roots and rocks
and switchbacks, one full frontal body mudslide down the trail,
lots of laughs
end-of-quote

so running capability may not be even the most important
part of your prep. and looks like the average speed
is 4mph or so. uphill walking should be trained also.

....thehick

Hi Dot,
I tried running in the dark with a lamp just once.
I decide that maybe my time would be better spent in the gym. Not only
was it hard to keep track of the trail, it was hard to tell where the
buttom was. I mean, it was like running in water, very disorienting.
I've thought if I could make a LED shirt with like 100 LED's I might
have simulated daylight. But...the way I sweat it would probably short
out and really make the HR monitor jump.
So, the gym.
We snowshoe at night if we get a good dump, it is great fun and a good
workout.
Really in the winter, it is typical indoor work-outs mid-week and
GET-OUT on the week-ends. Anything, ride, run, paddle, skate ski,
hike...anything.
I know that getting ready for a long race/run will require focus.

It is really great to hear how others have put it all together.

Thanks Dot,
/john

Hah!
If Doug is right (and I'm sure he is) <he VT50k has about 5,000-5,500
of gain and loss>. Who knows what a time goal might be. As you say, to
finish would be very cool. I guess we all dream of winning but like a
said, at 190 I am only going to beat another guy my size who wants it
just a little less than I do.

I have been thinking alot about nutrition, you are right, bonking is
defeat and with me hydration if not a major concern is something to
really bear in mind - I sweat beautifully.

Mud - last week-end was fun. It's always fun to get caught in the rain,
less fun to leave when it's raing. Last week-end I left the house twice
in the pouring rain and hit the trails - the mud was not as bad as the
slick footing. Wet New Hampshire granite is deadly, then there are
roots and the fallen leaves. Made for a fun run.
One towel for me, one for the dog - ticks are back too.

I don't know, it's fun, trying to put the whole thing together.

Thanks Frank.
/john

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

That's kind of heavy. Dropping some pounds would probably help in
terms of
injury prevention (and performance), even if you're quite lean.

What if he's 6" 8" with 4% body fat? You are probably correct that he
has a few extra pounds but as suprising as it might sound not all people
that toe the line at an ultra are svelt. The top 25-30 are lean(like
Dan), thereafter, most are carrying extra pounds. I my opinion weight is
less of factor for injury, at least those that get to the starting line.
I'm sure there is a injury filter but it's very hard to know who does
not make it to the starting line. Of couse it will affect performance it
is less important.

Quoted message said:

These are acute injuries -- I doubt they have much to do with training
volume.

Yes and no. If you are tired from volume and running trails, it's very
easy to trip, fall, sprain or impale yourself. On the roads or track
you just run slower.

Quoted message said:

could probably prevent them by not running on trails, but I don't
think
you'd consider that an acceptable solution, so the next best thing is
to be
really, really careful, especially on the downhills.

Practice, practrice, practice on trails.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In the late summer I took a trip to S.F., while I was there I did a
3.5
hour (knucklehead) run in the Marin Headlands. Everything was fine
except for my IT bands. For the first time ever they really got sore
and it took a week or two to recover. I guess that is what I would
hope
to train against - the possibility the outer knee getting really
cooked. In my normal long runs of 80 - 100 minutes (with my #1 dog) I
have zero lasting pain. I am aware that when I double the distance
and
duration that it is a whole new ball game.

It is quite difficult to prepare for a run that long -- even at 80mpw
with
several training runs in the 2.5hr range, a marathon would require
weeks
recovery for me.

A 3.5 hour run on the trails, even with hills is not a big deal unless
ones longest run was 5 miles. Training for ultras and training for a
marathon are differerent animals. The average mileage for 50 mile race
is about 50 miles a week, for a 100 maybe 60. Only the top 5% crank 80
or higher. Besides, mileage is a poor metric with hours and elevation
much more important. 10 miles with 3k of elevation is different than 10
with 200 feet so writing 10 in a log needs qualification.

I'm harping a little on this so people do not think you need to do mega
miles to run this stuff. If you want to win or finish in the top 5% then
bigger miles are needed.

Quoted message said:

But when the chips are down, I always find myself coming back to
specificity. So
I train to run long by running long. To train for a 10k, I do about
2hrs-2:15
for my weekly long runs, but if I was training for a much longer event
(like
when I was marathon training), I would do a run in the range of
2:30-2:40 every
other week.

And for a 50k it gets pushed to 3-4 hours since we will be out there
5-10 hours. The difference is the long runs are run slower, less taxing
as you are probaly walking steep uphills and running the levels and
downs. The walk/hike breaks use different muscles and provide a break.
Long runs for a marathon are solid running,no Gallowbreaks 😉 , with an
eye on pace.

Quoted message said:

So I'd suggest moving towards making your long runs a bit longer, and
preparing
your body for long runs, so that your next 3.5hr run is less eventful.

Amen. It could be a 4-5 or 6 month plan with gradual increases every
other week until a 4 hour run is no big deal.

-DougF

"jgs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have been thinking alot about nutrition, you are right, bonking is
defeat and with me hydration if not a major concern is something to
really bear in mind - I sweat beautifully.

If you goal is strickly the VT50K dehydation is is less of an issue
since the temps are classically cool. Nutrition, especially solid food
needs to be monitored regardless of temp. You practice both on your
long runs and find out what does and does not work for you.

Quoted message said:

I don't know, it's fun, trying to put the whole thing together.

review http://www.ultrunr.com/

jgs said:

Hi Dot,
I tried running in the dark with a lamp just once.
I decide that maybe my time would be better spent in the gym. Not only
was it hard to keep track of the trail, it was hard to tell where the
buttom was. I mean, it was like running in water, very disorienting.

That was like some of my early runs (1-3 led lights), until I upgraded
my lights (4 or 6 leds), which are constantly improving. Most of my dark
runs are on snow on dirt roads or ski trails (easy footing, no
navigation required), and my 4-led light was ok at my blazing lack of
speed. BUT it's woefully underpowered for non-snow-covered trails with
rocks, roots and where I need to navigate ahead as well as see what I'm
running on, not to mention wanting to catch some of the brush with
glowing eyes. I definitely need a bigger beam, but the dark running with
no snow is almost non-existent for me so I haven't done anything about
it yet. I also need to rig the light on sternum or waist strap for
better visibility in snowstorm or rising breath.

Quoted message said:

I've thought if I could make a LED shirt with like 100 LED's I might
have simulated daylight.

There are some 3-watt luxeon lights out there - beam up to 150 ft, from
what I've heard.

But...the way I sweat it would probably short

Quoted message said:

out and really make the HR monitor jump.
So, the gym.
We snowshoe at night if we get a good dump, it is great fun and a good
workout.
Really in the winter, it is typical indoor work-outs mid-week and
GET-OUT on the week-ends. Anything, ride, run, paddle, skate ski,
hike...anything.

That makes some sense. The thing I've found is that while I absolutely
prefer doing everything outdoors, when we get a bunch of slush, breakup
mud, etc., running-specific workouts in a cross-training class
(plyometrics) may be more specific than outdoor "running" - unless, of
course, the first races of the year are in mud and slush, and I have
done races in slush. (Around here, races may be cancelled if breakup mud
is still goopy - too much damage to the trails.) Plyometrics also help
with roots and rocks, which we don't have many of on local trails.

Dot

--
"running is a mysterious journey that we take not just to beat other
people or to stay in reasonable physical shape - but to find out more
about ourselves" - Owen Anderson

jgs said:

Ankle sprains - I wear an ASO brace on my left ankle now - works
great - solid. After my second sprain I was sure I would be looking for
a new sport and running on the road just does not appeal to me.

Have you tried strengthening drills for foot/ankle and/or proprioception?

Quoted message said:

I love
running the slaloms through the tight trails and charging hills -

drool 🙂 🙂

The trails I use most of the time are groomed ski trails or dirt/gravel
roads, but some of the mtn bikers are putting in single track (with
permission), and I've been helping a little. They're skilled and lay out
nice trails, but I don't have that much trail building experience yet.
So I stay out of the way but help where I can. It'll be nice to get
these since almost all trail races are rocks, roots, twists, hills -
which we lack on my usual trails (until this year).

I was out twisting / turning yesterday on a recovery run. Ran to end of
one of the new trails where I saw the flagging went downhill (not done
that direction yet, and I had already been around the other side of the
incomplete loop), but the herd trail they were following kept going
along the ridge - so off I go through the trees. Some hiking and
exploring were interspersed on that trip. When I got back to main trails
and the short, steep hills near the trail head, charged them (to best of
my ability). It was a "recovery" run - mentally - the heck with all the
regimentation. On one of the other single tracks, I almost get dizzy by
the time I'm back on the main trail - up/down, roots, twists - total focus.

Oh, yea, and the single track won't be groomed, so if we get snow, I
should have some soft stuff to ss run in rather than groomed stuff 🙂

Dot

--
"running is a mysterious journey that we take not just to beat other
people or to stay in reasonable physical shape - but to find out more
about ourselves" - Owen Anderson

jgs said:

running is PRIMAL. It just feels right.

Nah, hadn't you heard: running is just a way to generate interesting
data - e.g. heart rate, time, spacial coordinates - via expensive
digital gadgets. ;-)

Pendejo, also a running Luddite.