squat-knee problems

BobPit said:

I have a question about leg exercises.

Since last year I had some trouble with my knees. Small pains etc. My
doctor (athletics-orthopedics) told me that all leg exercises (especially
the leg extention and leg curl) hurt the knees. He told me that in 10 years
I would be looking for surgery.

He's not up on the facts then. If you do not work your joints, you're
more likely to suffer problems as time goes on. Healthy joints are meant
to be used! Even people with painful arthritis (of all different types)
are encouraged to do as much as possible to keep their joints healthy.

Quoted message said:

My gym instructor made fun of the doctor. And the doctor made fun of the
gym instructor. But I had the pains to prove that something was wrong.

And you could have had those pains anyway, regardless of whether you'd
been exercising or not.

Quoted message said:

Whenever I stopped squating and training the legs, in 20-30 days the pains
would go away.

What else were you doing for your legs? How often? What percentage of
your maximum weight? How many reps? How many sets? What was your exact
form on all the exercises you were doing? you've given us very little
information to comment about.

Quoted message said:

I sistened to the doctor's advice and shifted the focus on isometrics, wore
bands for the knees etc. Seemed to help. But I did regular reps for leg
extention (I overlooked this exercise). Pain came to the left knee.

Leg extensions are rarely performed properly and are more often a cause
of knee problems than properly performed squats. That said, I estimate
that 90+% of people doing squats haven't read anything about the details
of the different ways of doing them, nor have they committed to the
learning process to get their form right in any of the ways.

Quoted message said:

I have strong legs. I know the value of squat. But how do i overcome this
obstacle?

Give us more information.

Cheers,

Ari

--
spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

BobPit said:

I have a question about leg exercises.

Since last year I had some trouble with my knees. Small pains etc. My
doctor (athletics-orthopedics) told me that all leg exercises (especially
the leg extention and leg curl) hurt the knees. He told me that in 10 years
I would be looking for surgery.

My gym instructor made fun of the doctor. And the doctor made fun of the
gym instructor. But I had the pains to prove that something was wrong.
Whenever I stopped squating and training the legs, in 20-30 days the pains
would go away.

I sistened to the doctor's advice and shifted the focus on isometrics, wore
bands for the knees etc. Seemed to help. But I did regular reps for leg
extention (I overlooked this exercise). Pain came to the left knee.

I have strong legs. I know the value of squat. But how do i overcome this
obstacle?

Bob

Get somebody competent - say, your local USAW coach - to check your squat form.

Do high reps 2-3 times a week.

Chondroitin, glucosamine.

BobPit said:

I have a question about leg exercises.

Since last year I had some trouble with my knees. Small pains etc. My
doctor (athletics-orthopedics) told me that all leg exercises
(especially the leg extention and leg curl) hurt the knees. He told
me that in 10 years I would be looking for surgery.

He's partly talking [censored]. Squats don't hurt knees unless you do stupid
things; deadlifts you'd have to do really stupid things to hurt your knees.
Leg extension is a different matter, some people (me for a start) cannot do
them without problems.

So do deadlifts, and do squats: go as deep as you can, don't bounce at the
bottom, keep under control the whole time (doesn't necessarily mean slow,
but you should feel like if someone shouted 'stop' you could hold still
immediately wherever in the squat movement you are). Use whatever weights
let you do that, even if they don't feel all that heavy.

And find some glucosamine (or glucosamine+chondroitin if you've a bit more
money to spare).

Peter

Quoted message said:

Get somebody competent - say, your local USAW coach - to check your squat
form.

Occasionally the gym instructors saw me squat. They said I was OK. Maybe
they did not know ....

Quoted message said:

Do high reps 2-3 times a week.

But I only do each body part once a week, so that I can recuparate. God, I
hate contradicting info. I just heard of the 20 reps squat. I never go
higher than 12 reps. I go for mass and then strength.

Ok, please give me a reference.

Bob

Quoted message said:

And you could have had those pains anyway, regardless of whether you'd
been exercising or not.

Last year, I would wake up in the morning and my right knee would be locked
and in a pinching pain. After 10-20 secs it would be OK. I stopped
squating heavy, started isometrics for squat/leg press and it went away.
So, isn't this enough of a proof that my exercise schedule was hurting my
knees?

Quoted message said:

What else were you doing for your legs? How often? What percentage of your
maximum weight? How many reps? How many sets? What was your exact form on
all the exercises you were doing? you've given us very little information
to comment about.

I think at the top of my power, when I started to have the problem and then
I changed to issometric, I was exercising like this (Legs once per week. No
dead lift). These are the actual numbers from one of the workouts:
Half Squat: 10* 100kgr, 8*115 kgr, 6 * 130 kgr, 10 * 80 kgr, 10 * 80 kgr
Leg Press : 9*200 kgr, 8 * 200, 10 * 190
Leg extention: 10*40, 8*40, 7*37,5 , 8*35
Leg curl: 10*40, 8*40, 7*37,5 , 8*35

I do not know my max weight for these exercises. Usually, besides the
initial set, I always go to failure. Unless it is the squat, wich is
difficult to press until failure.

Quoted message said:

Leg extensions are rarely performed properly and are more often a cause of
knee problems than properly performed squats. That said, I estimate that
90+% of people doing squats haven't read anything about the details of the
different ways of doing them, nor have they committed to the learning
process to get their form right in any of the ways.

I thought there is no way to do the Leg Extention wrong. Please send a link
with the correct form. Yes, the doctor said that Extentions and curls,
since they are single joint exercises, they put much more strain on the
knee. Squats and Leg presses are safer (but still, squating with 120-150
kgr is a problem).

My doctor said that if I exercise with weight a lot less than my max, then
it is safe. So maybe, if I do high reps..... maybe?

For the last 1 year I do isometrics and very small range of motion (20
degrees at a time) for squat and leg press. But I went full range for leg
extention and leg curl. Maybe this was the problem when in the summer my
knees hurt again (lef tknee).

Please send me e link for correct form of extentiona dnother leg exercises.

Thanks
Bob

"spodosaurus" <spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

BobPit said:

I have a question about leg exercises.

Since last year I had some trouble with my knees. Small pains etc. My
doctor (athletics-orthopedics) told me that all leg exercises (especially
the leg extention and leg curl) hurt the knees. He told me that in 10
years I would be looking for surgery.

He's not up on the facts then. If you do not work your joints, you're more
likely to suffer problems as time goes on. Healthy joints are meant to be
used! Even people with painful arthritis (of all different types) are
encouraged to do as much as possible to keep their joints healthy.

Quoted message said:

My gym instructor made fun of the doctor. And the doctor made fun of the
gym instructor. But I had the pains to prove that something was wrong.

And you could have had those pains anyway, regardless of whether you'd
been exercising or not.

Quoted message said:

Whenever I stopped squating and training the legs, in 20-30 days the
pains would go away.

What else were you doing for your legs? How often? What percentage of your
maximum weight? How many reps? How many sets? What was your exact form on
all the exercises you were doing? you've given us very little information
to comment about.

Quoted message said:

I sistened to the doctor's advice and shifted the focus on isometrics,
wore bands for the knees etc. Seemed to help. But I did regular reps
for leg extention (I overlooked this exercise). Pain came to the left
knee.

Leg extensions are rarely performed properly and are more often a cause of
knee problems than properly performed squats. That said, I estimate that
90+% of people doing squats haven't read anything about the details of the
different ways of doing them, nor have they committed to the learning
process to get their form right in any of the ways.

Quoted message said:

I have strong legs. I know the value of squat. But how do i overcome
this obstacle?

Give us more information.

Cheers,

Ari

--
spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

BobPit said:

Quoted message said:

And you could have had those pains anyway, regardless of whether you'd
been exercising or not.

Last year, I would wake up in the morning and my right knee would be locked
and in a pinching pain. After 10-20 secs it would be OK. I stopped
squating heavy, started isometrics for squat/leg press and it went away.
So, isn't this enough of a proof that my exercise schedule was hurting my
knees?

Or you have an underlying knee problem that any real weight training
will bother, especially if you're doing those leg exercises wrong in the
first place.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What else were you doing for your legs? How often? What percentage of your
maximum weight? How many reps? How many sets? What was your exact form on
all the exercises you were doing? you've given us very little information
to comment about.

I think at the top of my power, when I started to have the problem and then
I changed to issometric, I was exercising like this (Legs once per week. No
dead lift). These are the actual numbers from one of the workouts:
Half Squat: 10* 100kgr, 8*115 kgr, 6 * 130 kgr, 10 * 80 kgr, 10 * 80 kgr

Half squat? So, basically, you were trying to wreck your knees. Well
done, mission accomplished :-( That is not a good way to squat. I'll
discuss this more, but only briefly, further down. You need to learn to
squat properly through a full range of motion and be able to adjust the
different variables to suit your needs. While you're doing this, you'll
be using very little weight until you've trained yourself to be able to
squat properly.

Quoted message said:

Leg Press : 9*200 kgr, 8 * 200, 10 * 190
Leg extention: 10*40, 8*40, 7*37,5 , 8*35
Leg curl: 10*40, 8*40, 7*37,5 , 8*35

These latter two are known knee aggrivators.

Quoted message said:

I do not know my max weight for these exercises. Usually, besides the
initial set, I always go to failure.

Probably not a good idea, especially on the two isolation movements.

Quoted message said:

Unless it is the squat, wich is
difficult to press until failure.

Quoted message said:

Leg extensions are rarely performed properly and are more often a cause of
knee problems than properly performed squats. That said, I estimate that
90+% of people doing squats haven't read anything about the details of the
different ways of doing them, nor have they committed to the learning
process to get their form right in any of the ways.

I thought there is no way to do the Leg Extention wrong.

Too much range of motion, jerking the weight at the bottom, locking out
at the top, etc etc etc

Quoted message said:

Please send a link
with the correct form. Yes, the doctor said that Extentions and curls,
since they are single joint exercises, they put much more strain on the
knee. Squats and Leg presses are safer (but still, squating with 120-150
kgr is a problem).

You were squatting wrong in the first place, though.

Quoted message said:

My doctor said that if I exercise with weight a lot less than my max, then
it is safe. So maybe, if I do high reps..... maybe?

And learn how to squat properly. There's a lot of information out there
on the web about this. There's also a lot of information in the google
archives of this group. First off, start with just the bar and learn to
do full squats properly. Read up about bar placement, knee tracking,
foot angles, etc.

Quoted message said:

For the last 1 year I do isometrics and very small range of motion (20
degrees at a time) for squat and leg press. But I went full range for leg
extention and leg curl. Maybe this was the problem when in the summer my
knees hurt again (lef tknee).

Doesn't sound great to me.

Quoted message said:

Please send me e link for correct form of extentiona dnother leg exercises.

Thanks
Bob

"spodosaurus" <spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

BobPit said:

I have a question about leg exercises.

Since last year I had some trouble with my knees. Small pains etc. My
doctor (athletics-orthopedics) told me that all leg exercises (especially
the leg extention and leg curl) hurt the knees. He told me that in 10
years I would be looking for surgery.

He's not up on the facts then. If you do not work your joints, you're more
likely to suffer problems as time goes on. Healthy joints are meant to be
used! Even people with painful arthritis (of all different types) are
encouraged to do as much as possible to keep their joints healthy.

Quoted message said:

My gym instructor made fun of the doctor. And the doctor made fun of the
gym instructor. But I had the pains to prove that something was wrong.

And you could have had those pains anyway, regardless of whether you'd
been exercising or not.

Quoted message said:

Whenever I stopped squating and training the legs, in 20-30 days the
pains would go away.

What else were you doing for your legs? How often? What percentage of your
maximum weight? How many reps? How many sets? What was your exact form on
all the exercises you were doing? you've given us very little information
to comment about.

Quoted message said:

I sistened to the doctor's advice and shifted the focus on isometrics,
wore bands for the knees etc. Seemed to help. But I did regular reps
for leg extention (I overlooked this exercise). Pain came to the left
knee.

Leg extensions are rarely performed properly and are more often a cause of
knee problems than properly performed squats. That said, I estimate that
90+% of people doing squats haven't read anything about the details of the
different ways of doing them, nor have they committed to the learning
process to get their form right in any of the ways.

Quoted message said:

I have strong legs. I know the value of squat. But how do i overcome
this obstacle?

Give us more information.

Cheers,

Ari

--
spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Half squat? So, basically, you were trying to wreck your knees.
<<<
By Half Squat I mean to make the knee go up to 90 degrees angle. Feet
almost paralele to the floor. So you say I need to go all the way down? I
thought this was the best way to wreck my knees. I just talked to my
partner (gym instructor) and verified it.

Ok, I will make a google search. I thought I cleared this issue many years
ago.

Bob

BobPit said:

Quoted message said:

Get somebody competent - say, your local USAW coach - to check your squat
form.

Occasionally the gym instructors saw me squat. They said I was OK. Maybe
they did not know ....

Quoted message said:

Do high reps 2-3 times a week.

But I only do each body part once a week, so that I can recuparate.

If I squat once a week I hurt after every session, even if I take it easy. If I
squat twice a week I don't hurt, ever.

Quoted message said:

God, I hate contradicting info.

Oh; then just close your eyes and cover your ears and go LALALALALALA.... ;-)

Quoted message said:

I just heard of the 20 reps squat. I never go
higher than 12 reps. I go for mass and then strength.

There's some studies that suggest that for knee connective tissue rehab high
reps work best.

Quoted message said:

Ok, please give me a reference.

www.hypertrophy-specific.com

BobPit said:

Quoted message said:

And you could have had those pains anyway, regardless of whether you'd
been exercising or not.

Last year, I would wake up in the morning and my right knee would be locked
and in a pinching pain. After 10-20 secs it would be OK. I stopped
squating heavy, started isometrics for squat/leg press and it went away.
So, isn't this enough of a proof that my exercise schedule was hurting my
knees?

Sure; which is not to say that squatting hurt your knees, so much as squatting
wrong hurt your knees, right?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What else were you doing for your legs? How often? What percentage of your
maximum weight? How many reps? How many sets? What was your exact form on
all the exercises you were doing? you've given us very little information
to comment about.

I think at the top of my power, when I started to have the problem and then
I changed to issometric, I was exercising like this (Legs once per week. No
dead lift). These are the actual numbers from one of the workouts:
Half Squat: 10* 100kgr, 8*115 kgr, 6 * 130 kgr, 10 * 80 kgr, 10 * 80 kgr

You know when doctors test you for knee instability they check your knee at 90
degrees because that's where it's most unstable? Is that really where you want
to turn around?

Full squat is safer, more stable, and less weight.

Quoted message said:

My doctor said that if I exercise with weight a lot less than my max, then
it is safe. So maybe, if I do high reps..... maybe?

Good for rehab, certainly.

BobPit said:

Half squat? So, basically, you were trying to wreck your knees.
<<<
By Half Squat I mean to make the knee go up to 90 degrees angle. Feet
almost paralele to the floor. So you say I need to go all the way down? I
thought this was the best way to wreck my knees. I just talked to my
partner (gym instructor) and verified it.

Turning around at maximum instability angle with heavier weight is Bad.

There is no clear answer. I found these articles up to now.

They recommend deep squats:

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=288brand2

http://www.johnberardi.com/updates/jan312003/na_myths.htm

http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Squats.html

http://www.usapowerlifting.com/newsletter/11/coaching/coaching.html

They do NOT recommend deep squats:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0675/is_6_19/ai_80369007

http://www.drsquat.com/index.cfm?action=viewarticle&articleID=5

Maybe go the democratic way. 4 to 2 wins? Do deep squats?

How about the scientific way? Why can't those guys agree?

Bob

BobPit said:

Maybe go the democratic way. 4 to 2 wins? Do deep squats?

How about the scientific way?

How about it's *your* body - use your own best judgement about what
works for *you*?

Or does that just make too much sense?

"The Queen of Cans and Jars" wrote

Quoted message said:

BobPit said:

Maybe go the democratic way. 4 to 2 wins? Do deep squats?

How about the scientific way?

How about it's *your* body - use your own best judgement about what
works for *you*?

Or does that just make too much sense?

In the age of instant info, that takes too long. I think he should find a
bad ass dominatrix and do whatever she tells him to. That way he won't have
to bother do do any real research, read books, etc. And he will never have
to make a meaningful decision again.

Lee Michaels said:

"The Queen of Cans and Jars" wrote

Quoted message said:

BobPit said:

Maybe go the democratic way. 4 to 2 wins? Do deep squats?

How about the scientific way?

How about it's *your* body - use your own best judgement about what
works for *you*?

Or does that just make too much sense?

In the age of instant info, that takes too long. I think he should find a
bad ass dominatrix and do whatever she tells him to. That way he won't have
to bother do do any real research, read books, etc. And he will never have
to make a meaningful decision again.

Hey.... ;-)

BobPit said:

They do NOT recommend deep squats:

http://www.drsquat.com/index.cfm?action=viewarticle&articleID=5

I don't see any 'don't squat deep' on that page. Doesn't say anything about
squat depth.

Bear in mind that powerlifters will want to squat to a bit above full depth,
because squatting just deep enough to make it a good lift allows you to move
more weight. That doesn't mean it's healthier.

Peter

The Bill Rodgers said:

BobPit said:

Occasionally the gym instructors saw me squat.

How do two people fit in the stall at once?

The second person sits on top of the bar of course. What did you think?

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

spodo,

read the above thread called "life's great mysteries.

"spodosaurus" <spodosaurus@_yahoo_.com> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

BobPit said:

I have a question about leg exercises.

Since last year I had some trouble with my knees. Small pains etc. My
doctor (athletics-orthopedics) told me that all leg exercises (especially
the leg extention and leg curl) hurt the knees. He told me that in 10
years I would be looking for surgery.

He's not up on the facts then. If you do not work your joints, you're more
likely to suffer problems as time goes on. Healthy joints are meant to be
used! Even people with painful arthritis (of all different types) are
encouraged to do as much as possible to keep their joints healthy.

Quoted message said:

My gym instructor made fun of the doctor. And the doctor made fun of the
gym instructor. But I had the pains to prove that something was wrong.

And you could have had those pains anyway, regardless of whether you'd
been exercising or not.

Quoted message said:

Whenever I stopped squating and training the legs, in 20-30 days the
pains would go away.

What else were you doing for your legs? How often? What percentage of your
maximum weight? How many reps? How many sets? What was your exact form on
all the exercises you were doing? you've given us very little information
to comment about.

Quoted message said:

I sistened to the doctor's advice and shifted the focus on isometrics,
wore bands for the knees etc. Seemed to help. But I did regular reps
for leg extention (I overlooked this exercise). Pain came to the left
knee.

Leg extensions are rarely performed properly and are more often a cause of
knee problems than properly performed squats. That said, I estimate that
90+% of people doing squats haven't read anything about the details of the
different ways of doing them, nor have they committed to the learning
process to get their form right in any of the ways.

Quoted message said:

I have strong legs. I know the value of squat. But how do i overcome
this obstacle?

Give us more information.

Cheers,

Ari

--
spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

mike said:

spodo,

read the above thread called "life's great mysteries.

Above?

--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/

Peter

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>

I don't see any 'don't squat deep' on that page. Doesn't say anything about
squat depth.
<<<<

Quotes from the article:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>>>>>>>>>>

Squats can be bad for your knees. Period. But they're good for everything
else.

2) During the decent phase of any type of squat, do not allow the knees to
extend beyond your feet. The further your knees travel over your feet, the
greater the shearing forces on the patellar tendon and ligament.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Bob

"Peter Allen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

BobPit said:

They do NOT recommend deep squats:

http://www.drsquat.com/index.cfm?action=viewarticle&articleID=5

I don't see any 'don't squat deep' on that page. Doesn't say anything
about
squat depth.

Bear in mind that powerlifters will want to squat to a bit above full
depth,
because squatting just deep enough to make it a good lift allows you to
move
more weight. That doesn't mean it's healthier.

Peter