squat-knee problems

Quoted message said:

How about it's *your* body - use your own best judgement about what
works for *you*?

Or does that just make too much sense?

Well, this is not the scientific answer I was looking for.

To summarise my initial post:
When I did heavy leg exercise, my knees hurt. When I do not exercise my
legs, my knees do not hurt. BUT, everybody tells me that SQUAT is the best
exercise around.

It is easy to say "you are the best doctor/trainer for your body". Suppose
I exercise the wrong way and I aggrevate my knees. Then I decide to go with
trial end error. I change practice and I follow a technique that is "safe".
But my knees are still not 100% healed. (from *my* experience, orthopedic
injuries can take 1-2 years to heal completely, on *my* body). So although
the techique is safe for a healthy person, it still makes my knees worse.
So after 2 months, my knees are worse and I reject this good technique. etc
etc etc etc. Maybe after 5-10 years I might be able to re-invent the wheel.

So I thought I would ask people who had the same problems with me or went
through these errors or had scientific data and could lead me to a correct
answer.

Bob

"The Queen of Cans and Jars" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

BobPit said:

Maybe go the democratic way. 4 to 2 wins? Do deep squats?

How about the scientific way?

How about it's *your* body - use your own best judgement about what
works for *you*?

Or does that just make too much sense?

"BobPit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1128897036.286730@athnrd02...

Quoted message said:

Peter

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>

I don't see any 'don't squat deep' on that page. Doesn't say anything about squat depth.
<<<<

Quotes from the article:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Squats can be bad for your knees. Period. But they're good for everything else.

2) During the decent phase of any type of squat, do not allow the knees to extend beyond your
feet. The further your knees travel over your feet, the greater the shearing forces on the
patellar tendon and ligament.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Number 2 doesn't mean not to squat deep - it means that, when you do,
don't let your knees go too far forward (in other words, if your knees go
too far forwards, you are using improper technique).

To test this, go to a low stool, chair, or bench. Sit down and stand up
several times. The last time, remain seated and look at how your feet and
legs are positioned. Virtually everyone that I've seen do this has their
shins perpendicular to the floor - the knees barely travel forwards. You
want to do the same thing when you squat.

Art

BobPit said:

Quoted message said:

How about it's *your* body - use your own best judgement about what
works for *you*?

Or does that just make too much sense?

Well, this is not the scientific answer I was looking for.

What a whiner.

The Queen of Cans and Jars said:

BobPit said:

Quoted message said:

How about it's *your* body - use your own best judgement about what
works for *you*?

Or does that just make too much sense?

Well, this is not the scientific answer I was looking for.

What a whiner.

Mm.

BobPit said:

Half squat? So, basically, you were trying to wreck your knees.
<<<
By Half Squat I mean to make the knee go up to 90 degrees angle. Feet
almost paralele to the floor. So you say I need to go all the way down? I
thought this was the best way to wreck my knees. I just talked to my
partner (gym instructor) and verified it.

Ok, I will make a google search. I thought I cleared this issue many years
ago.

Bob

Gym instructors generally no absolutely nothing about real lifts. Try
these articles as a starting point only:

http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/manrodt1.htm
http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/tomsquat.html
http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/MINE/howIdothesquat2.htm

http://www.stumptuous.com/learnsquat.html

--
spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2) During the decent phase of any type of squat, do not allow the knees
to extend beyond your feet. The further your knees travel over your feet,
the greater the shearing forces on the patellar tendon and ligament.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Number 2 doesn't mean not to squat deep - it means that, when you do,
don't let your knees go too far forward (in other words, if your knees go
too far forwards, you are using improper technique).

I did not think that this statement would be open to interpretation.

I tried your experiment:

OK, when the article says "do not allow the knees to extend beyond your
feet.", what does it mean? What I understand is, not to extend beyond the
line of vision, connecting the toes to the eyes. When I try to follow this,
I can go down to about 110 degrees, much higher than the 90 degrees angle.
When I try to keep the knees behind the toes, from the vertical line
starting from the toes, then I can go as deep as 150 degreees.

I assume you mean the second move?

Bob

"Art S" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"BobPit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:1128897036.286730@athnrd02...

Quoted message said:

Peter

Quoted message said:

>>>

I don't see any 'don't squat deep' on that page. Doesn't say anything
about squat depth.
<<<<

Quotes from the article:

Quoted message said:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Squats can be bad for your knees. Period. But they're good for everything
else.

2) During the decent phase of any type of squat, do not allow the knees
to extend beyond your feet. The further your knees travel over your feet,
the greater the shearing forces on the patellar tendon and ligament.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Number 2 doesn't mean not to squat deep - it means that, when you do,
don't let your knees go too far forward (in other words, if your knees go
too far forwards, you are using improper technique).

To test this, go to a low stool, chair, or bench. Sit down and stand up
several times. The last time, remain seated and look at how your feet and
legs are positioned. Virtually everyone that I've seen do this has their
shins perpendicular to the floor - the knees barely travel forwards. You
want to do the same thing when you squat.

Art

BobPit said:

I did not think that this statement would be open to interpretation.

You don't think very much at all, do you?

BobPit said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2) During the decent phase of any type of squat, do not allow the knees
to extend beyond your feet. The further your knees travel over your feet,
the greater the shearing forces on the patellar tendon and ligament.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Number 2 doesn't mean not to squat deep - it means that, when you do,
don't let your knees go too far forward (in other words, if your knees go
too far forwards, you are using improper technique).

I did not think that this statement would be open to interpretation.

Since you thought of two interpretations, the latter one correct (although I
disagree with the premise), that seems odd.

Quoted message said:

I tried your experiment:

OK, when the article says "do not allow the knees to extend beyond your
feet.", what does it mean? What I understand is, not to extend beyond the
line of vision, connecting the toes to the eyes. When I try to follow this,
I can go down to about 110 degrees, much higher than the 90 degrees angle.
When I try to keep the knees behind the toes, from the vertical line
starting from the toes, then I can go as deep as 150 degreees.

Look at these pictures:
www6.mailordercentral.com/ironmind/products.asp?dept=4

See how on Arranda's and Chakarov's squats their knees go past that vertical
plumbline at their toes?

You think *they're* doing it wrong?

OK, I decided to examine closely and follow the advice in the following two
books:
Stuart McRobert - Beyond Brawn, The Insiders Encyclopedia on How to Build
Muscle & Might.pdf
Stuart McRobert - Weight-Training Technique, Second Edition.pdf

He says to go deep down up to parallel, or just a little bellow. But with
perfect form.

This is lower than I used to do. I will give it a try.

Bob

Quoted message said:

See how on Arranda's and Chakarov's squats their knees go past that
vertical plumbline at their toes?

You think *they're* doing it wrong?

I see your point and thank you for the help.

I am not as advanced and trained as you guys or the powerlifters in the
picture. I do not want to be a smart-ass. But what Chakarov does may be an
indication of what is correct form. I guess he competes in deep squating,
so he has to do it. I only want to gain mass/strength, the safest way
possible. The same way, if he or some other famous athlet takes steroids or
other illegal and dangerous substances, this is not a justification for me
to take it either.

As I said, I will study McStuart's books and try his suggestions.

Thanks
Bob

"T" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

BobPit said:

Quoted message said:

>2) During the decent phase of any type of squat, do not allow the knees
>to extend beyond your feet. The further your knees travel over your
>feet, the greater the shearing forces on the patellar tendon and
>ligament.
><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Number 2 doesn't mean not to squat deep - it means that, when you do,
don't let your knees go too far forward (in other words, if your knees go
too far forwards, you are using improper technique).

I did not think that this statement would be open to interpretation.

Since you thought of two interpretations, the latter one correct (although
I disagree with the premise), that seems odd.

Quoted message said:

I tried your experiment:

OK, when the article says "do not allow the knees to extend beyond your
feet.", what does it mean? What I understand is, not to extend beyond
the line of vision, connecting the toes to the eyes. When I try to
follow this, I can go down to about 110 degrees, much higher than the 90
degrees angle. When I try to keep the knees behind the toes, from the
vertical line starting from the toes, then I can go as deep as 150
degreees.

Look at these pictures:
www6.mailordercentral.com/ironmind/products.asp?dept=4

See how on Arranda's and Chakarov's squats their knees go past that
vertical plumbline at their toes?

You think *they're* doing it wrong?

BobPit said:

Quoted message said:

See how on Arranda's and Chakarov's squats their knees go past that
vertical plumbline at their toes?

You think *they're* doing it wrong?

I see your point and thank you for the help.

I am not as advanced and trained as you guys or the powerlifters in the
picture.

Bite your tongue! ;-)

Those are Olympic lifters; they compete in the clean and jerk and the [censored].

Quoted message said:

I do not want to be a smart-ass. But what Chakarov does may be an
indication of what is correct form. I guess he competes in deep squatting,

No, he doesn't, though the bottom position on a squat clean is a lot like a
rock-bottom front squat and the bottom position on a squat [censored] is a lot like
a rock-bottom overhead squat, not that those are the more common clean and
[censored] forms.

Quoted message said:

so he has to do it. I only want to gain mass/strength, the safest way
possible.

Half squats are absolutely not that way. There's an argument about how
rock-bottom you should go, but certainly break parallel.

Quoted message said:

As I said, I will study McStuart's books and try his suggestions.

Good choice; his form book has 17 pages on squat form, iirc.

"BobPit" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1128879540.604522@athnrd02:

Quoted message said:

There is no clear answer. I found these articles up to now.

They recommend deep squats:

http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=288brand2

http://www.johnberardi.com/updates/jan312003/na_myths.htm

http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo/Squats.html

http://www.usapowerlifting.com/newsletter/11/coaching/coaching.html

They do NOT recommend deep squats:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0675/is_6_19/ai_80369007

http://www.drsquat.com/index.cfm?action=viewarticle&articleID=5

Maybe go the democratic way. 4 to 2 wins? Do deep squats?

How about the scientific way? Why can't those guys agree?

Just remember the democratic way got us George Bush as president.

Howabout looking at who's dishing out the advice? Dr. Squat is NOT
opposing deep squats on the page you referenced, so the only article
you've found against them is by some no-name.

Squat deep.

Hugh

--
Exercise is a dirty word. Whenever I hear it, I wash my mouth out with
chocolate. ("Ladi"😉

BobPit said:

OK, I decided to examine closely and follow the advice in the following two
books:
Stuart McRobert - Beyond Brawn, The Insiders Encyclopedia on How to Build
Muscle & Might.pdf
Stuart McRobert - Weight-Training Technique, Second Edition.pdf

He says to go deep down up to parallel, or just a little bellow. But with
perfect form.

This is lower than I used to do. I will give it a try.

Bob

While you're LEARNING this new form, use just the bar or just enough
weight to let you move properly. Slowly increase the weight. Have
someone let you know when your hip is lower than your knee, or film
yourself. There's a vocal group here that says to go even lower than
this, and they've got good arguments. I personally don't agree with
them, but that debate has been had here every six months :-) There were
several other factors I mentioned in another post (and I did reply with
4 squat technique urls), including toe flare, stance width, and bar
placement height. You'll need to experiment with these variables as
well. While you're doing this, it's probably a good idea to get rid of
the leg extensions and leg curls, as they could be causing some of the
knee problems already. If I was still able to, I'd be doing stiff leg
deadlifts for hamstrings rather than seated or lying leg curls. the two
books you mentioned are very good for beginniners just starting out.
You'll find that over time some things don't fully apply to you and
you'll need to adapt your training to your own needs.

Cheers,

Ari

--
spammage trappage: remove the underscores to reply

I'm going to die rather sooner than I'd like. I tried to protect my
neighbours from crime, and became the victim of it. Complications in
hospital following this resulted in a serious illness. I now need a bone
marrow transplant. Many people around the world are waiting for a marrow
transplant, too. Please volunteer to be a marrow donor:
http://www.abmdr.org.au/
http://www.marrow.org/

Thanks

Let me ask you something relevant. I will also incorporate Dead Lift and
Stiff Legs Dead Lift into the routine. And I am looking into the other
major exercises (Bench, Dips, Chin-ups) in case I missed something.

Where do I fit the Dead Lift and Stiff Legs Dead Lift?
My routine is:
day1-Chest
day1-Back
day off
day1-Biceps-Triceps
day1-Legs
day1-Shoulders
day off
(or someting like this)

So do I add Dead Lift and Stiff Legs Dead Lift in the LEGS day or the BACK
day?

Thanks

BobPit said:

Thanks

Let me ask you something relevant. I will also incorporate Dead Lift and
Stiff Legs Dead Lift into the routine. And I am looking into the other
major exercises (Bench, Dips, Chin-ups) in case I missed something.

Where do I fit the Dead Lift and Stiff Legs Dead Lift?
My routine is:
day1-Chest
day1-Back
day off
day1-Biceps-Triceps
day1-Legs
day1-Shoulders
day off
(or someting like this)

So do I add Dead Lift and Stiff Legs Dead Lift in the LEGS day or the BACK
day?

Thanks

If you typed that correctly, and you do a full body routine - chest, back,
biceps, triceps, legs, and shoulders all on the same day - then squat first,
sldl second, bench, chin, military press, deadlift.

If you screwed up and that was supposed to be a split routine, squat and sldl on
leg day, deadlift on back day.