Cycling quotation

Paul Turner said:

I may be stretching the bounds of miscellaneous here, but I ran across a
bicycle-related passage last night and thought maybe someone else might
enjoy as much as I did the description of a city of joyful people on
bikes. It's from the journalist A.J. Liebling's description of Paris after
the liberation:

That was beautiful. I enjoyed that. Thanks much for sharing. But I can
relate to the following by Mark Twain, because last night, I was
riding, and I FELL ON MY ASS!!!! I have learned much, but I have yet to
learn how to FALL. There must be a proper way to fall, but I have yet
to figure it out.

The bicycle had what is called the "wabbles," and had them very badly.
In order to keep my position, a good many things were required of me,
and in every instance the thing required was against nature. That is to
say, that whatever the needed thing might be, my nature, habit, and
breeding moved me to attempt it in one way, while some immutable and
unsuspected law of physics required that it be done in just the other
way. I perceived by this how radically and grotesquely wrong had been
the life-long education of my body and members. They were steeped in
ignorance; they knew nothing - nothing which it could profit them to
know. For instance, if I found myself falling to the right, I put the
tiller hard down the other way, by a quite natural impulse, and so
violated a law, and kept on going down. The law required the opposite
thing - the big wheel must be turned in the direction in which you are
falling. It is hard to believe this, when you are told it. And not
merely hard to believe it, but impossible; it is opposed to all your
notions. And it is just as hard to do it, after you do come to believe
it. Believing hard to do it, after you do come to believe it. Believing
it, and knowing by the most convincing proof that it is true, does not
help it: you can't any more DO it than you could before; you can
neither force nor persuade yourself to do it at first. The intellect
has to come to the front, now. It has to teach the limbs to discard
their old education and adopt the new.

Maggie. Falling in all directions ;-)

Paul Turner said:

I may be stretching the bounds of miscellaneous here, but I ran across a
bicycle-related passage last night and thought maybe someone else might
enjoy as much as I did the description of a city of joyful people on
bikes. It's from the journalist A.J. Liebling's description of Paris after
the liberation:

That was beautiful. I enjoyed that. Thanks much for sharing. But I can
relate to the following by Mark Twain, because last night, I was
riding, and I FELL ON MY ASS!!!! I have learned much, but I have yet to
learn how to FALL. There must be a proper way to fall, but I have yet
to figure it out.

The bicycle had what is called the "wabbles," and had them very badly.
In order to keep my position, a good many things were required of me,
and in every instance the thing required was against nature. That is to
say, that whatever the needed thing might be, my nature, habit, and
breeding moved me to attempt it in one way, while some immutable and
unsuspected law of physics required that it be done in just the other
way. I perceived by this how radically and grotesquely wrong had been
the life-long education of my body and members. They were steeped in
ignorance; they knew nothing - nothing which it could profit them to
know. For instance, if I found myself falling to the right, I put the
tiller hard down the other way, by a quite natural impulse, and so
violated a law, and kept on going down. The law required the opposite
thing - the big wheel must be turned in the direction in which you are
falling. It is hard to believe this, when you are told it. And not
merely hard to believe it, but impossible; it is opposed to all your
notions. And it is just as hard to do it, after you do come to believe
it. Believing hard to do it, after you do come to believe it. Believing
it, and knowing by the most convincing proof that it is true, does not
help it: you can't any more DO it than you could before; you can
neither force nor persuade yourself to do it at first. The intellect
has to come to the front, now. It has to teach the limbs to discard
their old education and adopt the new.

Maggie. Falling in all directions ;-)

Maggie said:

I have learned much, but I have yet to
learn how to FALL. There must be a proper way to fall, but I have yet
to figure it out.

Whatever time and effort you plan on putting into learning how to fall
would be much better spent on practicing NOT falling.

Rich

"Rich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Maggie said:

I have learned much, but I have yet to
learn how to FALL. There must be a proper way to fall, but I have yet
to figure it out.

Whatever time and effort you plan on putting into learning how to fall
would be much better spent on practicing NOT falling.

Have to disagree. One should always have a back up plan.

--
'They didn't blow their [parent's] heads off...
They... unloaded shotguns in their direction'
-Leslie Abramson: Menendez brothers' lawyer.

"Paul Turner" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

I'll be putting this on the jersey right under "more gas for you."
Scans great in French.

In fact, I may put it on my coat of arms. On a field, sable, crossed
hex driver and tire iron, joules.

Quoted message said:

most frequently repeated phrase of the week is 'Enfin on respire.' (At
last, one breathes!)"

I'm sure Liebling didn't have a double meaning in mind for that last
bit, but it's not something I'll be saying as I maneuver through
rush-hour traffic this morning.

--
Paul Turner

Inappropriate? Not hardly. Very refreshing, I would say

JMHO

- -

"May you have the winds at your back,
And a really low gear for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

Rich said:

Maggie said:

I have learned much, but I have yet to
learn how to FALL. There must be a proper way to fall, but I have yet
to figure it out.

Whatever time and effort you plan on putting into learning how to fall
would be much better spent on practicing NOT falling.

Rich

Learning how to fall is very important. When my son was a little boy
he was picked for the gymnastics team. One of the first lessons he
learned was HOW to fall. As he was leaning to be a gymnast there was
a heck of a lot of falling. If he did not understand how to fall
correctly, there would have been many broken bones. He left the
gymnastics team and went into organized sports in school. I believe
learning HOW to fall helped him avoid alot of injuries. Gymnastics is
a good beginning for a child to prepare them for all the "spills" they
may take and will take during the course of their childhood.....I wish
someone had taught me how to fall. I never break my falls, I never go
with the fall, I just panic. So I disagree...spend time learning how to
fall when you are young....and it will save you a few trips to the ER.
My son is 30 now, and those years of gymnastics, I am sure, have helped
him avoid some injuries when he fell from his bike, snowboard,
motorcycle and skakeboard.

On example from a skier regarding the importance of learning to fall:

Practice correct falling techniques. For example, the first reaction in
a fall is to extend the arm straight out with the palm down. But by
putting your body weight on a locked arm, tremendous pressure is
applied to the shoulder joint, which can dislocate the shoulder. Stop
falls with a bent elbow, which absorbs the fall much better without
applying injurious forces to the shoulder and thumb joints.

Maggie (trying to learn to fall correctly)

Maggie said:

Learning how to fall is very important. When my son was a little boy
he was picked for the gymnastics team.

You're not doing gymnastics, you're riding a bike. Falling should be a
very very rare thing (MTB exceptions). I haven't fallen while riding on
pavement in the last 15 years.

Rich

Rich said:

Maggie said:

Learning how to fall is very important. When my son was a little boy
he was picked for the gymnastics team.

You're not doing gymnastics, you're riding a bike. Falling should be a
very very rare thing (MTB exceptions). I haven't fallen while riding on
pavement in the last 15 years.

Rich is either

(1) One of the smoothest, most skilled riders who ever
lived.

(2) One of the most careful, conservative riders who
ever lived.

(3) A dude who really doesn't ride his bike that much.

I'd guess a combo of 2 and 3.

Maggie who? said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have learned much, but I have yet to learn how to FALL. There
must be a proper way to fall, but I have yet to figure it out.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Whatever time and effort you plan on putting into learning how to
fall would be much better spent on practicing NOT falling.

Quoted message said:

Learning how to fall is very important. When my son was a little boy
he was picked for the gymnastics team. One of the first lessons he
learned was HOW to fall. As he was leaning to be a gymnast there was
a heck of a lot of falling. If he did not understand how to fall
correctly, there would have been many broken bones. He left the
gymnastics team and went into organized sports in school. I believe
learning HOW to fall helped him avoid alot of injuries.

Quoted message said:

Gymnastics is a good beginning for a child to prepare them for all
the "spills" they may take and will take during the course of their
childhood... I wish someone had taught me how to fall. I never
break my falls, I never go with the fall, I just panic. So I
disagree... spend time learning how to fall when you are
young... and it will save you a few trips to the ER. My son is 30
now, and those years of gymnastics, I am sure, have helped him avoid
some injuries when he fell from his bike, snowboard, motorcycle and
skateboard.

I'm sure all this advice is theoretical because bicycle falls do not
occur at the elevation or low speeds of gymnastics falls. Most falls,
especially the ones involving head injuries, attest to the suddenness
and speed of the event in that many riders land on their faces, an
area not protected by the helmet. Over the years, I have observed
many crashes and am sure that people who talk of controlling their
crash are ones who were lucky enough to have a low side spill. The
highside falls are generally far more damaging.

It was once popular to refer to the skill of the "tuck and roll
technique" an imagined sequence that riders visualized. The reason
for falling is rarely something one anticipates or is aware of more
than a few milliseconds before it occurs. On the other hand, one can
often control what hits the ground first in a lowside crashes, the
more benign type and the one from which many of the tales of crashing
advice are derived. Lowside falls are when the wheels slide out from
under the rider in a curve in contrast to the highside, in which the
rider, banked over in a curve, flips over to the outside of that
curve.

Quoted message said:

On example from a skier regarding the importance of learning to fall:

Quoted message said:

Practice correct falling techniques. For example, the first reaction
in a fall is to extend the arm straight out with the palm down. But
by putting your body weight on a locked arm, tremendous pressure is
applied to the shoulder joint, which can dislocate the
shoulder. Stop falls with a bent elbow, which absorbs the fall much
better without applying injurious forces to the shoulder and thumb
joints.

I believe there is a basic difference in approach. If one has learned
to ride at an early age and develops experience of these things when
broken bones are uncommon and the falls are from a lower elevation,
the "art" of hitting the ground is self evident fairly soon. It is
not something one wants to learn later in life because injuries are
more severe and probably have a reverse effect on the "learner".

Quoted message said:

Maggie (trying to learn to fall correctly)

I don't think this is going to work in light of the spills I have had
and witnessed... and I have seen many.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maggie (trying to learn to fall correctly)

I don't think this is going to work in light of the spills I have had
and witnessed... and I have seen many.

Jobst Brandt

So you are telling me that there is no possible way to protect myself
when I fall except to NOT fall? That is impossible. I fall off my
bike. I will probably continue to fall off my bike even if I take
great pains to be careful. So it is the luck of the draw if I am going
to break one of these old bones of mine? That sucks. I still see a
difference in my kids.....my daughter will fall and break a bone, my
son falls and he comes up smiling. Is it just dumb luck???

Maggie

Maggie <[email hidden]> wrote:
:> [email hidden] wrote:
:>> > Maggie (trying to learn to fall correctly)
:>>
:>> I don't think this is going to work in light of the spills I have
:>> had and witnessed... and I have seen many.
:>>
:>> Jobst Brandt
:>
:> So you are telling me that there is no possible way to protect myself
:> when I fall except to NOT fall? That is impossible. I fall off my
:> bike. I will probably continue to fall off my bike even if I take
:> great pains to be careful. So it is the luck of the draw if I am
:> going to break one of these old bones of mine? That sucks. I
:> still see a difference in my kids.....my daughter will fall and
:> break a bone, my son falls and he comes up smiling. Is it just
:> dumb luck???

Probably to some extent....beyond that, your son is/was likely better
coordinated and has/had stronger muscles and bones....and got luckly.

In Message-ID:<[email hidden]>

posted on 1 Oct 2005 12:54:38 -0700 said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maggie (trying to learn to fall correctly)

I don't think this is going to work in light of the spills I have had
and witnessed... and I have seen many.

Jobst Brandt

So you are telling me that there is no possible way to protect myself
when I fall except to NOT fall? That is impossible. I fall off my
bike. I will probably continue to fall off my bike even if I take
great pains to be careful. So it is the luck of the draw if I am going
to break one of these old bones of mine? That sucks. I still see a
difference in my kids.....my daughter will fall and break a bone, my
son falls and he comes up smiling. Is it just dumb luck???

Maggie

Hi Maggie

I'm an old geezer that recently returned to bicycling after a decade
hiatus, and splurged for one of those full suspension jobs, but with a
compromise made for a cushion seat. Well, not being used to having the
whole bike frame sink during mounting, my first maneuver was the famed
"gravity check". My reaction was to hold my arm away from the LZ and
hold my head up such that I kind of rolled on the ground once and sprang
right back up to my feet, surprising the group young bike guys watching.
This comes from an instinct developed during years of informal soccer
play, where tripping is only illegal during an official match with
referees present. <g>

Anyone that says that you shouldn't learn to fall correctly is just the
sort of sadistic [censored] that make such entertaining spectacle when they
ultimately eat street themselves.
--

JK

Quoted message said:

Rich said:

You're not doing gymnastics, you're riding a bike. Falling should be a
very very rare thing (MTB exceptions).

I agree.

Quoted message said:

I haven't fallen while riding on

Quoted message said:

pavement in the last 15 years.

You've got me there. My last on-road fall was about ten years ago.
However, the previous on-road fall was ... let's see... (subtracting
years)... about 45 years ago. While delivering papers. In the snow.

The OP should take whatever time she devotes to learning how to fall,
and spend it learning how NOT to fall. Falling is NOT inevitable.

Quoted message said:

Rich is either

(1) One of the smoothest, most skilled riders who ever
lived.

(2) One of the most careful, conservative riders who
ever lived.

(3) A dude who really doesn't ride his bike that much.

I'd guess a combo of 2 and 3.

:-) Conversely, a guy who falls a lot (on pavement) is either:

(1) Clumsy and unskilled

(2) Reckless

(3) A guy who rides 15,000 miles per year.

I'd guess a combo of 1 and 2. ;-)

- Frank Krygowski

Quoted message said:

Rich is either

(1) One of the smoothest, most skilled riders who ever
lived.

(2) One of the most careful, conservative riders who
ever lived.

(3) A dude who really doesn't ride his bike that much.

I'd guess a combo of 2 and 3.

I ride between 700 and 1000 road miles a year. I'm not sure why you'd
expect to fall? Do you expect to wreck your car as well?

I do fall quite often on my MTB off road, but I don't consider that
unexpected.

Rich

<[email hidden]> wrote: (clip) The OP should take whatever time she
devotes to learning how to fall, and spend it learning how NOT to fall
(clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There are certain things we do intuitively, without having to be told. If
you have to be told, chances are you won't do the right thing in the
fraction of a second that possibly could make a difference. There are falls
and there are FALLS. There are injuries and there are INJURIES. Most of
the time, when people "know how to fall", and avoid serious injury, it's
because they weren't going very fast, and didn't impact anything very hard.
In a serious crash, the rider is propelled by momentum to whatever fate lies
ahead. He/she does not have the time, orientation, strength or control to
do ANYTHING about it.

an anonymous old geezer snipes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't think this is going to work in light of the spills I have
had and witnessed... and I have seen many.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So you are telling me that there is no possible way to protect
myself when I fall except to NOT fall? That is impossible. I fall
off my bike. I will probably continue to fall off my bike even if
I take great pains to be careful. So it is the luck of the draw if
I am going to break one of these old bones of mine? That sucks. I
still see a difference in my kids... my daughter will fall and
break a bone, my son falls and he comes up smiling. Is it just
dumb luck???

Quoted message said:

I'm an old geezer that recently returned to bicycling after a decade
hiatus, and splurged for one of those full suspension jobs, but with
a compromise made for a cushion seat. Well, not being used to
having the whole bike frame sink during mounting, my first maneuver
was the famed "gravity check". My reaction was to hold my arm away
from the LZ and hold my head up such that I kind of rolled on the
ground once and sprang right back up to my feet, surprising the
group young bike guys watching. This comes from an instinct
developed during years of informal soccer play, where tripping is
only illegal during an official match with referees present. <g>

So how fast were you going and what sort of asphalt or concrete was
your landing spot? Semi-static roll-overs don't count as a crash in
my book. I haven't seen any riders crash on a descent and spring up
and run at 20mph after hitting the pavement. In criteriums most
crashes are the end of the event for the one who fell and they don't
sprint away from the landing spot.

Quoted message said:

Anyone that says that you shouldn't learn to fall correctly is just
the sort of sadistic [censored] that make such entertaining spectacle
when they ultimately eat street themselves.

I think you'll need to go through the sequence of how you practice
crashing on a descent, be that off or on road, so that it makes some
sense. I'm unclear on your "arm away from the LZ" reference and what
you were doing to initiate the "crash" that you describe. If you are
crashing at 10mph you should first practice managing that speed
without falling. At higher speeds, the ones where significant
injuries occur, practicing is illusory. You might also consider
reviewing:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html

Jobst Brandt

In Message-ID:<[email hidden]> posted on Sat, 01
Oct 2005 23:36:18 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:

<~~~>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm an old geezer that recently returned to bicycling after a decade
hiatus, and splurged for one of those full suspension jobs, but with
a compromise made for a cushion seat. Well, not being used to
having the whole bike frame sink during mounting, my first maneuver
was the famed "gravity check". My reaction was to hold my arm away
from the LZ and hold my head up such that I kind of rolled on the
ground once and sprang right back up to my feet, surprising the
group young bike guys watching. This comes from an instinct
developed during years of informal soccer play, where tripping is
only illegal during an official match with referees present. <g>

So how fast were you going

Zero mph
re-read what I wrote
it happened while mounting

Quoted message said:

and what sort of asphalt or concrete was
your landing spot?

It was concrete,
the lot out front of the store.

Quoted message said:

Semi-static roll-overs don't count as a crash in
my book.

I'm not trying to count in anyone's book, it wasn't a crash, it was a
fall experienced while mounting due to the unexpected full suspension
action, it was an experience that could have caused an injury if I'd
allowed a stiffened arm to transfer the pressure to the carpal navicular
instead of rolling across my shoulders.

Quoted message said:

I haven't seen any riders crash on a descent and spring up
and run at 20mph after hitting the pavement. In criteriums most
crashes are the end of the event for the one who fell and they don't
sprint away from the landing spot.

totally irrelevant, not downhill, but a flat concrete lot, and there was
no sprinting away, just a quick rebound to my feet

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anyone that says that you shouldn't learn to fall correctly is just
the sort of sadistic [censored] that make such entertaining spectacle
when they ultimately eat street themselves.

I think you'll need to go through the sequence of how you practice
crashing on a descent, be that off or on road, so that it makes some
sense.

I don't practice falling during a descent, but should such a situation
occur, I'd likely try to roll with it and not apply any more stress to
myself by trying to brace against it.
I think you need to read what I wrote and respond to that
rather than some hypothetical

Quoted message said:

I'm unclear on your "arm away from the LZ" reference

arm held away from the landing zone
instead of trying to use it as landing gear

Quoted message said:

and what
you were doing to initiate the "crash" that you describe.

re-read what I wrote
it happened while mounting

Your comments sound almost as if you were responding to me, but with a
fantasy overlay of some downhill event, are you sure you didn't confuse
me with something else?
--

JK

Rich said:

I ride between 700 and 1000 road miles a year. I'm not sure why you'd
expect to fall? Do you expect to wreck your car as well?

Rich

Ever hear of learning to drive defensively.......we do that because we
expect that an accident may occur. Anyone who never expects to fall or
get in an accident is a lunatic. When I go horseback riding, I realize
that something can spook the horse and I better be prepared to remember
what I was taught during my riding lessons. When I was taught to
drive, I was taught to drive defensively. When I played catcher for
the softball team I was taught to always wear my cathers mask. I din't
when I was playing basball with brother and he gave me two black eyes.
I don't understand the statement.....WHY WOULD YOU EXPECT TO FALL?
Why would you expect that you could never fall???? Do you expect to
die someday. Probably not. Anyone who never expects to fall, thinks
themselves invincible. I must be chatting with superman. It boggles
my mind that a simple statement such as "learning to fall" would lead
to stories of people WHO NEVER FALL!! In my opinion, if you never
fell, you never rode. If you never fell, you probably never leave your
computer. You just post. "And thats all I'm gonna say bout that."

Maggie